4030 Perfect Apilado Position
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 09:50:25 -0800
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Perfect Apilado Position
Wow !!!!
https://www.rawsonweb.com/tango/Design/Assets/Images/wtsusanamiller.gif
This is a perfect apilado position!!!
Derik, I wish you learn dancing in this position first before you write your
complains:
"close embrace all the time" follower has to be pushed
around physically by direct contact with the leader's body to take a step,
and that to me is far more "brutish" than a leader in an open embrace
simply moving his body to indicate where the follower might want to go"
You lose a lot!
Igor Polk
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 10:14:08 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Perfect Apilado Position
Dear Igor:
Exactly my point! It is a perfect "apilado position".
She is not on her own blance.
PS- I have danced in this position and it is
wonderful...BUT it is a limited form, so I get bored
with it. I much prefer the flexibility of close
embrace-open embrace where both partners are balanced
on their own weight dancing as equals. That is my
other point!
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM> wrote:
> Wow !!!!
>
>
https://www.rawsonweb.com/tango/Design/Assets/Images/wtsusanamiller.gif
>
> This is a perfect apilado position!!!
>
> Derik, I wish you learn dancing in this position
> first before you write your
> complains:
>
> "close embrace all the time" follower has to be
> pushed
> around physically by direct contact with the
> leader's body to take a step,
> and that to me is far more "brutish" than a leader
> in an open embrace
> simply moving his body to indicate where the
> follower might want to go"
>
>
> You lose a lot!
>
> Igor Polk
>
>
> Send "Where can I Tango in <city>?" requests to
> Tango-A rather than to
> Tango-L, since you can indicate the region. To
> subscribe to Tango-A,
> send "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>
>
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 19:16:37 +0000
From: Dani Iannarelli <dani@TANGO-LA-DOLCE-VITA.COM>
Subject: Re: Perfect Apilado Position
I prefer the missionary position, myself.
What does everyone else think?
Regards
Dani
Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
Dear Igor:
Exactly my point! It is a perfect "apilado position".
She is not on her own blance.
PS- I have danced in this position and it is
wonderful...BUT it is a limited form, so I get bored
with it. I much prefer the flexibility of close
embrace-open embrace where both partners are balanced
on their own weight dancing as equals. That is my
other point!
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- Igor Polk wrote:
> Wow !!!!
>
>
https://www.rawsonweb.com/tango/Design/Assets/Images/wtsusanamiller.gif
>
> This is a perfect apilado position!!!
>
> Derik, I wish you learn dancing in this position
> first before you write your
> complains:
>
> "close embrace all the time" follower has to be
> pushed
> around physically by direct contact with the
> leader's body to take a step,
> and that to me is far more "brutish" than a leader
> in an open embrace
> simply moving his body to indicate where the
> follower might want to go"
>
>
> You lose a lot!
>
> Igor Polk
>
>
> Send "Where can I Tango in ?" requests to
> Tango-A rather than to
> Tango-L, since you can indicate the region. To
> subscribe to Tango-A,
> send "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>
>
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 11:36:27 -0800
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Re: Perfect Apilado Position
"She is not on her own balance."
Yes, she is. Her axis is not vertical, but balance and vertical axis are two
very different things commonly misunderstood. Balance is not verticality.
Balance is the ability to maintain a position.
In Apilado Position she is very much responsible for maintaining the balance
as well as the man. But exactly the same can be said about open embrace! It
is especially felt in molinetes, when unified axis of rotation of the couple
if vividly present. If she is not maintaining the shared axis of rotation,
the couple falls apart! Her own axis in open embrace is mostly vertical,
yes. And she maintains the balance of her axis without relying on the man's
hands. Mostly....
By the way, one of the way of leading molinetes in open embrace is tilting
the man's axis.
In apilado the shared axis is felt stronger. It is always present. But at
the same time she has her own axis. Her axis is not vertical. It is tilted
toward me, but it is hers. Axis is an imaginary line around which her body
rotates. But in order to dance in Apilado this axis must become material.
She is responsible for maintaining it, otherwise the couple will fall down,
because the balance of the couple is the balance of the two individual
axises tilted toward each other.
How she maintains the axis and her position in this Apilado geometrical
figure? She pushes from the floor with her legs into the man's chest. This
is number one. If she releases this push, she will hang which is wrong.
Number two. The man must lead, and this is not the step!!! Not the
movement!!! It can not be perceived with an eye! If you believe that the
lead is the movement of your chest ( oh, boy how you are wrong!!!) you will
not be able to lead in Apilado. At least for the obvious reason that she can
not see you.
And she must react to this lead.... Then the dance becomes the easiest and
most pleasant thing in the world!
Man does not hold her. It looks like, but the reality is different. Our
bodies create and maintain a geometrical figure within which we dance. And
she is responsible for maintaining this figure the same way as a man. Even
more. Otherwise we will get what you describe:
A man holds her, she hangs on him, man have to push excessively to be able
to move losing sensitivity and she is blocking movements. This is not the
features of the style, but the signs that the style is not mastered yet.
Igor Polk
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 16:01:15 EST
From: Bill King <Euroking@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Perfect Apilado Position
I agree that balance and axis are not synonymous in any way except that they
are intertwined when two people join to dance.
First, when we walk alone we have to maintain balance or we fall. This is
dynamic and is directly related to a vertical axis, i.e. it moves and it is
ours. This axis is vertical and remains perpendicular to the floor to our center
of mass (COM). If we lean forward or back, our COM moves correspondingly
and the axis moves away from our feet. If we get our center of mass too far
from where our feet can maintain stability, we fall.
If we join together to dance we either have to maintain our separate balance
as we do in a open embrace or we have to share, or rely on each other to
maintain balance, which we do to varying degrees in closed embrace or apilado.
When we lean towards each other and move together, we share an axis. We can
share that axis 50-50, 90-10, 10 –90 or a combination thereof. If we, each
try or maintain sufficient control over our position and balance we are
sharing but do not truly have or are we moving on a single shared axis. In close
embrace and definitely in apilado we are truly sharing a single axis which,
depending on how much we are sharing of the axis will lets us feel either
rather comfortable or bullied, depending on t\the sharing balance. In other
words, if both are sharing the axis roughly 50-50 (and this will vary with each
different step or movement, however ideally you want to keep the variance
minimal) the dance will be smooth and mutually comforting, as you will be moving
as one.
The problem arises when the sharing is not equally. The picture with
Susanna Miller (which I will assume is pr photo as opposed to and actual dance
photo) appears to show an unequal distribution, which IMHO will require the lead
to physically (not necessarily with brut force, although with a much less
experience follow in that same position might be needed) move the follow with
some force. This is because the lead must move the follows COM before the
follow can take over. Since the follow is relying more heavily on the lead
maintaining the shared axis, the follow must be physically moved. True what appears
to be something in Tango is often an illusion and from the better dancers
this illusion is what makes the dance so appealing and visually beautiful. To
beginners or someone not as proficient, the illusion of the good is the
reality of the poor and comfort is lost and with it the enjoyment.
I apologize for the over-analyzing and truly appreciate the reality that
these issues are spoken or analyzed in reality but experienced. We don’t need
break everything down to its separate parts we just dance and adapted or in
worse case scenarios avoid.
Just some thoughts,
Bill in Seattle
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 21:48:25 -0300
From: Deby Novitz <dnovitz@LAVIDACONDEBY.COM>
Subject: Re: Perfect Apilado Position
OK I almost never email this forum. So here is my two cents. Please
don4't flame, because really I don't care if you agree or disagree with
me. I used to live in San Francisco. After 18 trips to BA in 4 years I
decided to move here permanently. I have lived here for over a year. It
doesn't make me better or worse than anyone else on this forum. It just
means I live here. I echo Barbara Garvey, why do you guys have to
dissect every move in this dance? Relax and just enjoy. Tango is a
social dance, not a scientific experiment or a computer program. It is
a dance of the heart, not the brain. When people here ask me if I
teach, I tell them, no, I dance for my heart. That is enough. People
know what I mean.
For those of you in suspense - we don't talk about close/apilado blah
blah blah. Here you either dance the way the argentines dance or you
dance the way the foreigners dance. (open I suppose) Where your cheek
goes is personal preference. How the woman wraps her arm is her choice.
There are no rules, period. As for balance and axis, you maintain
your own, leader or follower. If you don4t have balance you are heavy
and difficult to dance with. If you are "leaning against" the other
person for your balance you make it very difficult to enjoy the dance.
A woman who leans against the man is hard to move. Men usually use
their hand. (Marca con el mano is a BIG no no) It is uncomfortable.
Women either break the man's neck, men blow away our shoulders. So much
better when you maintain your own sense and come together with someone else.
The so called lean you talk about actually comes from your posture,
balance, and axis. I control how much or little I lean by who I am
dancing with and the music that is playing. I probably cannot explain
this as well as needed, but the nicest thing a man can say to a woman is
"tu abrazo es muy dulce." The embrace is just that - an embrace. You
dont fall all over someone when you hug them, the same is true in tango.
OK nuf said. Besos from Buenos Aires...and just go dance. It's more fun.
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 01:22:39 +0000
From: Dani Iannarelli <dani@TANGO-LA-DOLCE-VITA.COM>
Subject: Re: Perfect Apilado Position
Hear, Hear, Deby!
Excellent!
You've said everything exactly as I've felt, which is why I often cut down a lot of these senseless analyses with some humour. I can't be bothered with all this 'that foot should be precisely there, while this hand should be at 61.5 degrees in relation to that toe etc etc etc. What a load of bull.
Enjoy the dance. Do it the way you see fit. What's right for you is best for you.
I still prefer the missionary position, though. . . >:-)))))
Regards
Dani
Deby Novitz <dnovitz@LAVIDACONDEBY.COM> wrote:
OK I almost never email this forum. So here is my two cents. Please
don4't flame, because really I don't care if you agree or disagree with
me. I used to live in San Francisco. After 18 trips to BA in 4 years I
decided to move here permanently. I have lived here for over a year. It
doesn't make me better or worse than anyone else on this forum. It just
means I live here. I echo Barbara Garvey, why do you guys have to
dissect every move in this dance? Relax and just enjoy. Tango is a
social dance, not a scientific experiment or a computer program. It is
a dance of the heart, not the brain. When people here ask me if I
teach, I tell them, no, I dance for my heart. That is enough. People
know what I mean.
For those of you in suspense - we don't talk about close/apilado blah
blah blah. Here you either dance the way the argentines dance or you
dance the way the foreigners dance. (open I suppose) Where your cheek
goes is personal preference. How the woman wraps her arm is her choice.
There are no rules, period. As for balance and axis, you maintain
your own, leader or follower. If you don4t have balance you are heavy
and difficult to dance with. If you are "leaning against" the other
person for your balance you make it very difficult to enjoy the dance.
A woman who leans against the man is hard to move. Men usually use
their hand. (Marca con el mano is a BIG no no) It is uncomfortable.
Women either break the man's neck, men blow away our shoulders. So much
better when you maintain your own sense and come together with someone else.
The so called lean you talk about actually comes from your posture,
balance, and axis. I control how much or little I lean by who I am
dancing with and the music that is playing. I probably cannot explain
this as well as needed, but the nicest thing a man can say to a woman is
"tu abrazo es muy dulce." The embrace is just that - an embrace. You
dont fall all over someone when you hug them, the same is true in tango.
OK nuf said. Besos from Buenos Aires...and just go dance. It's more fun.
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:56:33 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Perfect Apilado Position
I have lived here for over a year. It
> doesn't make me better or worse than anyone else on this forum. It just
> means I live here.
> For those of you in suspense - we don't talk about close/apilado blah
> blah blah. Here you either dance the way the argentines dance or you
> dance the way the foreigners dance.
Thank you so much, Deby. I have been waiting for years for someone to say
this on the list.
Astrid
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 05:40:33 -0800
From: Larry Gmucs <gmucs@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Perfect Apilado Position
Deby,
Wonderful!!
I've seen many teacher/students in American ballroom lessons doing syllabus steps just like "school figures", where the exact placement of each body part is critical. Many students will try to bring the same attitude to Tango, whicn is not productive to their learning. Tango is an improvised dance in a loose framework of style and suggestions (not rules) which is danced between the partner and one's self.
Deby Novitz <dnovitz@LAVIDACONDEBY.COM> wrote:
OK nuf said. Besos from Buenos Aires...and just go dance. It's more fun.
Yahoo! Photos
Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP.
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 07:06:59 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Perfect Apilado Position
Dear Deby and Dani:
Deby, I agree with you 100 percent on everything you
are saying. Thank you.
It would be nice if the many self appointed "tango
teachers" on this E-mail list, actually knew how to
dance Argentine Tango and understood the Argentine
culture. Life would be much easier for all of us.
Derik
(recent winner of the Dani Iannarelli "cocoanut
award'..lol )
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- Dani Iannarelli <dani@TANGO-LA-DOLCE-VITA.COM>
wrote:
> Hear, Hear, Deby!
> Excellent!
>
> You've said everything exactly as I've felt, which
> is why I often cut down a lot of these senseless
> analyses with some humour. I can't be bothered with
> all this 'that foot should be precisely there, while
> this hand should be at 61.5 degrees in relation to
> that toe etc etc etc. What a load of bull.
>
> Enjoy the dance. Do it the way you see fit. What's
> right for you is best for you.
>
> I still prefer the missionary position, though. .
> . >:-)))))
>
> Regards
>
> Dani
>
>
> Deby Novitz <dnovitz@LAVIDACONDEBY.COM> wrote:
> OK I almost never email this forum. So here is my
> two cents. Please
> don4't flame, because really I don't care if you
> agree or disagree with
> me. I used to live in San Francisco. After 18 trips
> to BA in 4 years I
> decided to move here permanently. I have lived here
> for over a year. It
> doesn't make me better or worse than anyone else on
> this forum. It just
> means I live here. I echo Barbara Garvey, why do you
> guys have to
> dissect every move in this dance? Relax and just
> enjoy. Tango is a
> social dance, not a scientific experiment or a
> computer program. It is
> a dance of the heart, not the brain. When people
> here ask me if I
> teach, I tell them, no, I dance for my heart. That
> is enough. People
> know what I mean.
>
> For those of you in suspense - we don't talk about
> close/apilado blah
> blah blah. Here you either dance the way the
> argentines dance or you
> dance the way the foreigners dance. (open I suppose)
> Where your cheek
> goes is personal preference. How the woman wraps her
> arm is her choice.
> There are no rules, period. As for balance and axis,
> you maintain
> your own, leader or follower. If you don4t have
> balance you are heavy
> and difficult to dance with. If you are "leaning
> against" the other
> person for your balance you make it very difficult
> to enjoy the dance.
> A woman who leans against the man is hard to move.
> Men usually use
> their hand. (Marca con el mano is a BIG no no) It is
> uncomfortable.
> Women either break the man's neck, men blow away our
> shoulders. So much
> better when you maintain your own sense and come
> together with someone else.
>
> The so called lean you talk about actually comes
> from your posture,
> balance, and axis. I control how much or little I
> lean by who I am
> dancing with and the music that is playing. I
> probably cannot explain
> this as well as needed, but the nicest thing a man
> can say to a woman is
> "tu abrazo es muy dulce." The embrace is just that -
> an embrace. You
> dont fall all over someone when you hug them, the
> same is true in tango.
>
> OK nuf said. Besos from Buenos Aires...and just go
> dance. It's more fun.
>
>
> Send "Where can I Tango in ?" requests to Tango-A
> rather than to
> Tango-L, since you can indicate the region. To
> subscribe to Tango-A,
> send "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>
>
>
>
> Send "Where can I Tango in <city>?" requests to
> Tango-A rather than to
> Tango-L, since you can indicate the region. To
> subscribe to Tango-A,
> send "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 15:29:50 +0000
From: Dani Iannarelli <dani@TANGO-LA-DOLCE-VITA.COM>
Subject: Re: Perfect Apilado Position
Hey! Learn to spell!!! It's coconut!
Dani
"Dance like everybody is watching..."
Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@yahoo.com> wrote:
Dear Deby and Dani:
Deby, I agree with you 100 percent on everything you
are saying. Thank you.
It would be nice if the many self appointed "tango
teachers" on this E-mail list, actually knew how to
dance Argentine Tango and understood the Argentine
culture. Life would be much easier for all of us.
Derik
(recent winner of the Dani Iannarelli "cocoanut
award'..lol )
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- Dani Iannarelli
wrote:
> Hear, Hear, Deby!
> Excellent!
>
> You've said everything exactly as I've felt, which
> is why I often cut down a lot of these senseless
> analyses with some humour. I can't be bothered with
> all this 'that foot should be precisely there, while
> this hand should be at 61.5 degrees in relation to
> that toe etc etc etc. What a load of bull.
>
> Enjoy the dance. Do it the way you see fit. What's
> right for you is best for you.
>
> I still prefer the missionary position, though. .
> . >:-)))))
>
> Regards
>
> Dani
>
>
> Deby Novitz wrote:
> OK I almost never email this forum. So here is my
> two cents. Please
> don4't flame, because really I don't care if you
> agree or disagree with
> me. I used to live in San Francisco. After 18 trips
> to BA in 4 years I
> decided to move here permanently. I have lived here
> for over a year. It
> doesn't make me better or worse than anyone else on
> this forum. It just
> means I live here. I echo Barbara Garvey, why do you
> guys have to
> dissect every move in this dance? Relax and just
> enjoy. Tango is a
> social dance, not a scientific experiment or a
> computer program. It is
> a dance of the heart, not the brain. When people
> here ask me if I
> teach, I tell them, no, I dance for my heart. That
> is enough. People
> know what I mean.
>
> For those of you in suspense - we don't talk about
> close/apilado blah
> blah blah. Here you either dance the way the
> argentines dance or you
> dance the way the foreigners dance. (open I suppose)
> Where your cheek
> goes is personal preference. How the woman wraps her
> arm is her choice.
> There are no rules, period. As for balance and axis,
> you maintain
> your own, leader or follower. If you don4t have
> balance you are heavy
> and difficult to dance with. If you are "leaning
> against" the other
> person for your balance you make it very difficult
> to enjoy the dance.
> A woman who leans against the man is hard to move.
> Men usually use
> their hand. (Marca con el mano is a BIG no no) It is
> uncomfortable.
> Women either break the man's neck, men blow away our
> shoulders. So much
> better when you maintain your own sense and come
> together with someone else.
>
> The so called lean you talk about actually comes
> from your posture,
> balance, and axis. I control how much or little I
> lean by who I am
> dancing with and the music that is playing. I
> probably cannot explain
> this as well as needed, but the nicest thing a man
> can say to a woman is
> "tu abrazo es muy dulce." The embrace is just that -
> an embrace. You
> dont fall all over someone when you hug them, the
> same is true in tango.
>
> OK nuf said. Besos from Buenos Aires...and just go
> dance. It's more fun.
>
>
> Send "Where can I Tango in ?" requests to Tango-A
> rather than to
> Tango-L, since you can indicate the region. To
> subscribe to Tango-A,
> send "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>
>
>
>
> Send "Where can I Tango in ?" requests to
> Tango-A rather than to
> Tango-L, since you can indicate the region. To
> subscribe to Tango-A,
> send "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 13:06:11 -0800
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Re: Perfect Apilado Position
This message should be sent yesterday, sorry. I still feel it is important:
it concludes my digest of apilado ideas, so I publish it a little later than
it should be. I hope the list forgives me for such liberty. Igor.
* * *
In Apilado a heavier person leans less than a lighter one. I.e. the angle of
deviation of the axis from vertical of a heavier person is less. Because he
is heaver, right? Consequently, the vertical shared axis going through the
intersection of tilted individual axises is closer to him - that is the main
axis of the couple's rotations.
If a man ( or a woman as a case might be ) is much heavier than the partner,
his lean could be almost invisible. The projection of the crossing point
might not even go outside of his feet! That is why some of them say that
there is no lean. But it is!
The amount of tilt varies. We can lean to each other more or less. How can I
explain it better, hmm.. For example, when our feet are closer or farther
away. But the proportion of the angle stays the same. When the couple does
not move, it depends on the weight of partners and the amount of the forth
they push from the floor.
Also the point of contact can be higher or lower from the ground. The
higher, the easier to maintain balance, but the slower the dance.
Shortly, it feels that we are in perfectly balanced position. It feels very
comfortable. But there are many of this perfectly balanced positions: with
more lean or less, with higher point of contact or lower. It affects the
dancing a lot. I believe there is an optimal position depending on the speed
of the dance and it style. It is very complex geometry, difficult to explain
in the couple of sentences.
Igor Polk
PS,
Sorry, Deby,
this message supposed to be send before, but the server did
not let me exceed 4 allowed messages a day. Your wonderful message should
conclude the thread, but at the same time I feel important that this message
is published timely. Some of us have to learn the dance, have to know more
about it because we are very limited in our opportunities here, outside of
Buenos Aires. Even in San Francisco. Many of us learn by analyzing. I do not
consider tango as a dance only. It is a science for me also. Everything is a
science and art.
PSS
Astrid,
Thank you for very useful message!
I am a pretty small guy. I love to dance with heavier and toller women.
Beginners women are afraid to lean more. Because of that, it is me, who
leans more in apilado position. It is up to me, and I make it! I push with
my legs from the floor into their chest. And that works amazing! You may try
it with your partners in Japan.
