4390  Prologue-- vs. Cop-outs

Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 14:07:59 -0400
From: "TangoDC.com" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Prologue-- vs. Cop-outs
To: tango-L@mit.edu

Hey Sergio,

Well, I speak for myself when I say that I'll miss you, and that I wish
you would've stuck around to participate in this forum as it leaves the
7th grade behind.

In the meantime, I'll continue to discuss this dance at the high level
it merits, and if certain thoughts or others go over someone's head,
that's Okay. Plenty escapes me, until I grit my teeth and Learn. Your
advice is well-intentioned, I'm sure; but condescension has never been
of service to anyone, whereas the too-advanced discussion has
occasionally done the "unqualified" listener a great deal of good.

By the same token, if you find the discourse here to be over your own
head, or to be focused on ideas you'd rather not give the time of day,
please don't pin it on me. I'm trying to take this dance seriously as an
art, and to write about it with the same sobriety and acumen that other
arts (painting, literature, cinema) have attracted from their
intelligent audiences, apprentices, and masters. One measure of an art's
vitality is the strength and interest of its criticism, its theory, its
ability to understand itself-- as present in the reviews and secondary
literature once called "the second life of art" by Italian poet Eugenio
Montale. If I can contribute to that as a side-effect of dancing five
nights a week, I'm content.

Moreover, we often can't reflect on our dancing while our dance shoes
are on, because a characteristic of Good dancing is that we're Not
thinking about it. That doesn't mean we should make Not Thinking a
habit. Rather, we should use our time away from the pista to consider
what the hell we're doing there, and whether we're really pushing
ourselves hard enough. If we don't enlist our minds in the struggle to
advance, step by faltering step, on the path to beauty, then after a
certain amount of experience we'll only make progress by accident.

That's my perspective anyway. Many dancers aren't trained (self-taught,
whatever) in other arts, but many are, and I'll continue to import
critical standards for the sake of those who can benefit from it,
whatever their background (or future) may be.

What I'll stop doing is feeling bad every time someone cops out because
I've taken the initiative. In all honesty, I've merely struck a few
pathetic matches in what some people can't recognize to be a kitchen.
You can accuse me of arson if you like, but I'm hungry, and the pot-luck
is on. Everybody's invited.

So, best of luck in finding a good use of your time. I know I've found a
good use of mine.

Jake Spatz
Washington, DC


Sergio Vandekier wrote:

> This will be my last note for a while, I will join Derik and the many
> others that over the years discovered that there are many interesting
> ways to employ their time in a productive way.
>
> Jake welcome to the reality of Tango-L. My advise is that if you
> wish everybody to be able to understand you; you should speak at a
> level of 7th grade, primary school because the list is formed by
> people of different degree of education and intellectual level. (the
> ones that are highly intelligent will understand you anyways).
>
> Even if you do so you can expect that some, who never contributed a
> useful line to the list will come up with some misinterpretation of
> what you say and a smart remark.
>
>
> To be clear one could say:
>
> Women are the ones that have the breast more developed. In biology we
> know that they carry the chromosome X : they are XX. Remember that
> there could be some obese males with big breasts but they are not
> women because men carry the chromosome Y : they are XY.
>
> Foreign personal styles and gender roles may leave authenticity
> behind. This means that when you dissociate a tango style from its
> native culture it loses its pristine form and content and could become
> something else.
>
> Remember children this does not mean that a tango that lost
> authenticity is a bad tango, rest assured you can continue doing
> whatever is that you are doing.
>
> Tango( the way you dance it) represents society codes, gender roles
> and also your personality.
>
> You can change roles, content and form even while attempting to mimic
> the original dance but the result may be another dance or a caricature
> of the authentic one.
>
> Argentine culture has developed different styles of Tango
> (Traditional, open, close, embrace, milonguero, Nuevo, canyengue, etc)
> . They all have a common vocabulary of movements and expression in the
> way they are danced with some changes in technique and embrace but all
> those styles belong to the same generic dance. They overlap in this
> regard and they are characterized by improvisation.
>
> Finally I never said that Argentine society has no problems, actually
> it probably has more problems that other societies. But I am not
> discussing Argentine societal problems I am discussing Tango and the
> elements of that society that are represented in it.
>
> Tango has followed in its form and content every change in Argentine
> evolution, the dance as well as the music and the lyrics. there is
> plenty of literature in this respect such as "Tango testigo social"
> 9tango social whiteness) of Mr. Carretero.
>
> Argentines (IMO) ( I speak for myself and not for the entire A.
> population) are family oriented, the most important things in life for
> them is family first, friends second and their job in a far third
> position. They feel realized in that context and performing the roles
> that are traditionally conducive at obtaining a good, healthy family
> and a large group of faithful friends. In that context the woman
> occupies an important place, as a treasure in young times and as a
> saint later on as a mother and a grand mother. Further more our
> entire education is left largely in the hands of women, mother, grand
> mothers and aunts during childhood, women teachers (over 90%) in
> primary school, women professors in Secondary school (over 60%) and
> also at the University level where they are well represented.
>
> Many tango lyrics are dedicated to the woman in their different
> capacities, to the mother and to their self denying virtues. And yes
> also to the many women, that failed the men that loved them, but those
> were another kind of women, product of a bad form of life. Many tango
> lyrics make reference to friendship as well...but
>
> This is another subject.
>
> Have a good time, Sergio
>
>
>
>

Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 16:23:28 -0400
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Prologue-- vs. Cop-outs
To: spatz@tangoDC.com, tango-L@mit.edu

>Hey Sergio,
>
>Well, I speak for myself when I say that I'll miss you, and that I wish
>you would've stuck around to participate in this forum as it leaves the
>7th grade behind.
>
>In the meantime, I'll continue to discuss this dance at the high level
>it merits, and if certain thoughts or others go over someone's head,
>that's Okay. Plenty escapes me, until I grit my teeth and Learn. Your
>advice is well-intentioned, I'm sure; but condescension has never been
>of service to anyone, whereas the too-advanced discussion has
>occasionally done the "unqualified" listener a great deal of good.

I don't think that many people in this forum find it difficult to understand
ideas written in clear and simple manner. There are probably a good number
of folks who've written dissertations, etc. However, I think it's best to be
simple, concise and clear. Instead of trying to talk over the heads of the
hoi polloi, it's probably more fruitful to speak to the people with respect
and treat them with dignity. I don't think that tango is such an esoteric
and high falluting topic that it requires words out of post doc publications
to discuss. BTW, a big hello to Sergio. I hope we get to chat face to face
again sometime.

Regards,

Manuel

Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 23:56:41 -0600
From: "Bruno Romero" <romerob@telusplanet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Prologue-- vs. Cop-outs
To: <tango-L@mit.edu>

In response to the following premise:

>Tango( the way you dance it) represents society codes, gender roles

and also your personality.
You can change roles, content and form even while attempting to mimic
the original dance but the result may be another dance or a caricature
of the authentic one. <

>From el Tango, la otra historia, by Andres Carretero:

"To be tanguero one does not have to be tangologo, tangofilo, nor tanguista.
It is enough to feel part of the extraordinary ethnic groups composed by
blacks, tanos (Italians), Indians, Saxons, and Semites who inhabit the basin
of the river discovered by Solis"

"Knowledge increases pleasure. However if the pleasure is not wide and
generous, then knowledge leads to bickering and discrimination"

By Jose Gobello

Cheers,

Bruno