5087 Rampant serious misunderstandings about "Gustavo"
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 15:11:03 -0600
From: "Brian Dunn" <brian@danceoftheheart.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Rampant serious misunderstandings about "Gustavo"
Dear list,
Here in Boulder, we're finishing up two weeks worth of working with Gustavo
Naveira and Giselle Anne, learning from them, sitting with tears in our eyes
watching them dance, listening to their music choices as DJ's, and sharing
the social dance floor with them to live tango music.
Chris, your statements referring to Gustavo Naveira, his ideas, his
teaching, and what he means by various concepts, are so comically at
variance with what we're experiencing here for ourselves that it sadly calls
into question the validity of anything you say. I say "sadly" because it's
clear you care a lot about tango, and like many of us, have had some
powerful experiences and conclusions which you seem interested in sharing.
To be clear, I am referring to your statements without the ";)" smiley after
or in them, and thus those which you perhaps intend to be taken seriously.
If you just forgot the ";)", well OK, never mind - we infer from Dani that
you don't mean anything substantive by statements so labeled.
You're not the only frequent poster on the list with serious
misunderstandings about Gustavo - just currently the most vociferous.
Assuming you DO have serious conversation to share here...for the record,
could you review for us just what your firsthand experiences with Gustavo's
teaching and dancing were? Such a context would make your truly bizarre
statements a little easier to understand.
I concur with Steve that if anyone REALLY wants to know what Gustavo and
Giselle think/teach/dance, they should quickly see if there are any spots
left in Atlanta next week for his workshops and performances with Giselle.
G&G will be coming down from high altitude, so it should be incredible -
thinking about them having the extra oxygen in Atlanta makes me really happy
for all you easterners - they're altitude-adapted now, and they absolutely
blew the roof off last night. People are saying they will remember it for
the rest of their lives.
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
775 Pleasant Street
Boulder, CO 80302 USA
303-938-0716
www.danceoftheheart.com
"Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"
-----Original Message-----
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 01:49 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rampant serious misunderstandings about
"Gustavo"
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> Chris, your statements referring to Gustavo Naveira, his ideas, his
> teaching, and what he means by various concepts, are so comically at
> variance with what we're experiencing here for ourselves
Then Brian you should have no problem critiquing my:
......
Here's the translation of Gustavo's basis for structural analysis:
1) Sentences can be broken down into words.
2) We've given names (symbols) to those words.
This is an attempt to create a symbolic language to represent the dance.
In my opinion the best it can do is misrepresent. This makes it useless...
......
Perhaps when you get a spare moment, you'd care to identify which part or
parts of this are at variance with what you're experiencing, and how.
--
Chris
PS
> ";)" ... we infer from Dani that you don't mean anything substantive
> by statements so labeled.
You infer wrong. ;)
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 11:58:55 +0000 (GMT)
From: Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rampant serious misunderstandings about
"Gustavo"
To: tl2@chrisjj.com, Tango-L@MIT.EDU
Dear Chris, Brian and other tangueros
> ";)" ... we infer from Dani that you don't mean anything substantive
> by statements so labeled.
>You infer wrong. ;)
Ok, now that I know I was wrong in my defence of what I thought to be your playing devil's advocate, here we go...
>Here's the translation of Gustavo's basis for structural analysis:
>1) Sentences can be broken down into words.
>2) We've given names (symbols) to those words.
>This is an attempt to create a symbolic language to represent the dance.
>In my opinion the best it can do is misrepresent. This makes it useless...
>
You have an irritating and nonsensical habit of taking 'quotations' out of context and twisting the meaning to suit your own needs. This is not "an attempt to create a symbolic language to represent the dance", it is an attempt (and a successful one at that) to convey the concept of his work to his students. There is no attempt to start a new language. It's all about interpretation and for a teacher, an innovator, to find ways of clarifying his ideas... making such concepts easier to convey. This is the teacher's (any teacher) job... to find new ways of conveying concepts. What's wrong with that?! The simple fact is that his method works.
You know, one of the things that pisses me off about this List are the eejits, the armchair 'critics' who openly attempt to destructively criticise world-class teachers (and by world-class I mean those subject to international 'limelight'). There is too much of this on this List. How would you (any of you offenders) like to be publicly condemned?
On the other hand, Brian, as much as I thoroughly agree with you about Gustavo, I have to say the following to you:
I get annoyed about peoples' ideas, which often flies in the face of the natural concept of what tango (in fact, almost any partnered dance but more so tango), in my opinion is... machismo vs femininity. The man is the predator, the woman is the prey, as has been since time immemorial (which is undoubtedly the reason why seeing women leading irritates me so much). To hear what should be a machismo tanguero talking of "sitting with tears in our eyes watching them dance" really turns my stomach. Men (even more so in the tango world) should be men... not wimps (American equivalent, I believe, is "wussy" or something).
Anyway, Chris, it's obvious you have never taken any classes/courses with Gustavo. This has to be the case as you have to have come to a cockeyed analysis probably having formulated your ideas from 3rd and 4th-hand twaddle. I have taken workshops, classes, festivals with many, many teachers worldwide over a ten-year period, and I have been on three week-long seminarios with Gustavo and Giselle-Anne to date. My conclusion? Gustavo is THE best. I saw Gustavo and Giselle-Anne performing at the recent Roma Tangocamp and although I did not (sorry, Brian) 'sit with tears in my eyes watching them dance' (yeccchhhh)... they were mind-blowing! It was the best I'd ever seen them.
I've been to many tango (and other) events and always get irritated about how people go over the top and give standing ovations for absolutely any performance regardless; it's as if (like giving tips in restaurants) it's become the expected thing to do, almost a custom. Well, unless it's for Sinatra or someone (or some performance) of that stature, I'm not one for standing ovations. As I said, it as seems to be the wont of so many people these days and for the least little thing. Hoewever, at Tangocamp in Rome, Gustavo and Giselle-Anne, these two, did indeed deserve exactly that.
Chris, come down off your 'high horse', go on one of Gustavo's seminarios and experience the best.
Very best wishes
Dani ~
`El Zorro de Tango' >:-)))))
~Tango*La Dolce Vita~
Email: dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu
Website: https://www.tango-la-dolce-vita.eu
Online photogalleries: https://www.flickr.com/photos/club_tango-la-dolce-vita/
https://www.flickr.com/people/club_tango-la-dolce-vita/
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 12:17:04 -0600
From: "Brian Dunn" <brian@danceoftheheart.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rampant serious misunderstandings about
"Gustavo"
To: "'Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~'" <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu>,
<Tango-L@MIT.EDU>
Dani, you wrote:
>>>
On the other hand, Brian, as much as I thoroughly agree with you about
Gustavo, I have to say the following to you:
I get annoyed about peoples' ideas, which often flies in the face of the
natural concept of what tango (in fact, almost any partnered dance but more
so tango), in my opinion is... machismo vs femininity. The man is the
predator, the woman is the prey, as has been since time immemorial (which is
undoubtedly the reason why seeing women leading irritates me so much). To
hear what should be a machismo tanguero talking of "sitting with tears in
our eyes watching them dance" really turns my stomach. Men (even more so in
the tango world) should be men... not wimps (American equivalent, I believe,
is "wussy" or something).
<<<
Hey, Dani, relax. I agree with you about men and women in some ways that
might surprise you, even if I'd extend and modify your metaphor
considerably. "Sitting there with tears in our eyes" was a phrase motivated
by watching my wife Deb ruin her makeup.
On the other hand, I seem to recall lots of tough Italian guys in the
"Godfather"-vein of our popular mythology who let themselves go emotionally
at an opera, for example. In these popular portrayals, these guys seem like
fellows that I wouldn't want to call a wimp, except maybe over a phone from
an untraceable location. I'd say context is important in evaluating whether
tears convey strong passionate emotion or "wussy-hood".
In any case, I wish I'd been there in Rome with you!
Abrazos,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
775 Pleasant Street
Boulder, CO 80302 USA
303-938-0716
www.danceoftheheart.com
"Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:16:21 -0700
From: "Konstantin Zahariev" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rampant serious misunderstandings about
"Gustavo"
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<ade549600707231316n24bf05a4mb8f2796c5bac464@mail.gmail.com>
On 7/23/07, Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu> wrote:
> Dear Chris, Brian and other tangueros
>
> To hear what should be a machismo tanguero talking of "sitting with tears in our eyes
> watching them dance" really turns my stomach. Men (even more so in the tango world)
> should be men... not wimps (American equivalent, I believe, is "wussy" or something).
Dear Dani,
I think you are confusing, or conflating, being sensitive and
emotional (and not afraid to share it with others) with being weak(*),
inferring the latter from the former. This is faulty reasoning,
however, kind of asuming the outcome or a faulty mathematical
induction. If someone's in a weak position, they may cry, but the
opposite does not follow - that if someone cries, they are inherently
weak or wimpy.
With best regards,
Konstantin
Victoria, Canada
(*)Similarly, others in life regularly conflate being diplomatic or
nice or friendly or willing to compromise with being a wimp or weak.
Generally people are being nice or diplomatic by choice, however, not
out of weakness. BTW, women can probably write PhDs on that subject.
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 22:55:43 +0000 (GMT)
From: Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rampant serious misunderstandings about
"Gustavo"
To: brian@danceoftheheart.com, Tango-L@MIT.EDU, anfractuoso@gmail.com
Cc: Dani Iannarelli <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu>
Club ~Tango*La Dolce Vita~
~ Dani Iannarelli ~
Dear Brian, Konstantin, and all other interested tangueros...
>
>I seem to recall lots of tough Italian guys in the
>"Godfather"-vein of our popular mythology who let themselves go emotionally
>at an opera, for example. In these popular portrayals, these guys seem like
>fellows that I wouldn't want to call a wimp, except maybe over a phone from
>an untraceable location - Brian
>
- and -
>
>the opposite does not follow - that if someone cries, they are inherently
>weak or wimpy - Konstantin
>
I stand corrected. You are both perfectly correct. There is no shame nor wussiness/wimpishness in tough guys shedding a tear or two... in fact, I myself have done so many times. I suppose it's my southern Italian heritage coupled with an inherent deep sensitivity... in fact, the latter is very much an innate characteristic of the former!
My focus was muddled by the 'horrendous-squared' image I often get of the contrived nonsense and artificialness/falseness of (particularly) non-latins trying to be 'quasi-latins' (particularly trying to be Argentine-latin). We've all seen them giving the kiss on the cheek(s) when it's *not inherent in their own culture*... ie they do it just because they've started tango. You know the type... there are loads of these pretentious twats where I am. In fact, many of them actually get it wrong. They try to be Argentinean while they mete out a bilateral cheek kiss with an obvious "mmwwwuuuuhhh, mmwwwuuuuhhh" when in fact they are ignorant of the fact that in Argentina it's ONE kiss; they're entirely oblivious to the fact they're actually inadvertently trying to be Italian...! >:-))))))) This pretentiousness kills me! I simply had the image of an extrapolation of the kissing thing into "sitting there with tears in our eyes"...
Anyway, enough of my griping.
Brian, you also asserted:
>In any case, I wish I'd been there in Rome with you!
Sorry to disappoint you but, being the macho hunk I am, I would have refused your offer to dance! >:-)))))
By the way, 'Chris(UK)' sleeps with the fishes.
Very best wishes
Dani ~
`El Zorro de Tango' >:-)))))
~Tango*La Dolce Vita~
Email: dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu
Website: https://www.tango-la-dolce-vita.eu
Online photogalleries: https://www.flickr.com/photos/club_tango-la-dolce-vita/
https://www.flickr.com/people/club_tango-la-dolce-vita/
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 21:10:34 -0400
From: "Tango Tango" <tangotangotango@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rampant serious misunderstandings about
"Gustavo"
<9fb1555a0707231810m2e328c2fpff727133c247e684@mail.gmail.com>
Brian.
Italian men cry because they miss their mommies.
https://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1945801,00.html
Neil
On 7/23/07, Brian Dunn <brian@danceoftheheart.com> wrote:
>
> Dani, you wrote:
> >>>
> On the other hand, Brian, as much as I thoroughly agree with you about
> Gustavo, I have to say the following to you:
> I get annoyed about peoples' ideas, which often flies in the face of the
> natural concept of what tango (in fact, almost any partnered dance but
> more
> so tango), in my opinion is... machismo vs femininity. The man is the
> predator, the woman is the prey, as has been since time immemorial (which
> is
> undoubtedly the reason why seeing women leading irritates me so much). To
> hear what should be a machismo tanguero talking of "sitting with tears in
> our eyes watching them dance" really turns my stomach. Men (even more so
> in
> the tango world) should be men... not wimps (American equivalent, I
> believe,
> is "wussy" or something).
> <<<
>
> Hey, Dani, relax. I agree with you about men and women in some ways that
> might surprise you, even if I'd extend and modify your metaphor
> considerably. "Sitting there with tears in our eyes" was a phrase
> motivated
> by watching my wife Deb ruin her makeup.
>
> On the other hand, I seem to recall lots of tough Italian guys in the
> "Godfather"-vein of our popular mythology who let themselves go
> emotionally
> at an opera, for example. In these popular portrayals, these guys seem
> like
> fellows that I wouldn't want to call a wimp, except maybe over a phone
> from
> an untraceable location. I'd say context is important in evaluating
> whether
> tears convey strong passionate emotion or "wussy-hood".
>
> In any case, I wish I'd been there in Rome with you!
>
> Abrazos,
> Brian Dunn
> Dance of the Heart
> 775 Pleasant Street
> Boulder, CO 80302 USA
> 303-938-0716
> www.danceoftheheart.com
> "Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"
>
>
>
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 01:48:45 -0400
From: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rampant serious misunderstandings about
"Gustavo"
To: tango-L@mit.edu
Neil,
This is virtually an entire subgenre of tango songs. Vd.
https://www.todotango.com/english/biblioteca/letras/letras_tema.asp?idt=5&t=Mother
Jake
DC
Tango Tango wrote:
> Brian.
>
> Italian men cry because they miss their mommies.
>
>
> https://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1945801,00.html
>
>
> Neil
>
>
> On 7/23/07, Brian Dunn <brian@danceoftheheart.com> wrote:
>
>> Dani, you wrote:
>>
>> On the other hand, Brian, as much as I thoroughly agree with you about
>> Gustavo, I have to say the following to you:
>> I get annoyed about peoples' ideas, which often flies in the face of the
>> natural concept of what tango (in fact, almost any partnered dance but
>> more
>> so tango), in my opinion is... machismo vs femininity. The man is the
>> predator, the woman is the prey, as has been since time immemorial (which
>> is
>> undoubtedly the reason why seeing women leading irritates me so much). To
>> hear what should be a machismo tanguero talking of "sitting with tears in
>> our eyes watching them dance" really turns my stomach. Men (even more so
>> in
>> the tango world) should be men... not wimps (American equivalent, I
>> believe,
>> is "wussy" or something).
>> <<<
>>
>> Hey, Dani, relax. I agree with you about men and women in some ways that
>> might surprise you, even if I'd extend and modify your metaphor
>> considerably. "Sitting there with tears in our eyes" was a phrase
>> motivated
>> by watching my wife Deb ruin her makeup.
>>
>> On the other hand, I seem to recall lots of tough Italian guys in the
>> "Godfather"-vein of our popular mythology who let themselves go
>> emotionally
>> at an opera, for example. In these popular portrayals, these guys seem
>> like
>> fellows that I wouldn't want to call a wimp, except maybe over a phone
>> from
>> an untraceable location. I'd say context is important in evaluating
>> whether
>> tears convey strong passionate emotion or "wussy-hood".
>>
>> In any case, I wish I'd been there in Rome with you!
>>
>> Abrazos,
>> Brian Dunn
>> Dance of the Heart
>> 775 Pleasant Street
>> Boulder, CO 80302 USA
>> 303-938-0716
>> www.danceoftheheart.com
>> "Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 09:13:30 -0400
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rampant serious misunderstandings about
"Gustavo"
To: dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu, brian@danceoftheheart.com,
Tango-L@MIT.EDU, anfractuoso@gmail.com
>From: Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu>
>By the way, 'Chris(UK)' sleeps with the fishes.
>
>Very best wishes
>
>Dani ~
Dani, I thought you were kidding...... But Chris is unnaturally quiet. Did
"la mano negra" appear on his door? ;-)
Manuel
Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!
https://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_hotmailtextlink2
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 08:34:41 -0500
From: ceverett@ceverett.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rampant serious misunderstandings about
"Gustavo"
To: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>, "Tango-L"
<tango-L@mit.edu>
Rob Hauk told me about this song where the guys woman leaves him,
and he's saying,
Victory! I can go live with my Mom again ... \
Victory! I can sleep late again ...
What Argentines have that the Italians don't is a lovely sense of irony.
Christopher
On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 01:48:45 -0400, "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)"
<spatz@tangoDC.com> said:
> Neil,
>
> This is virtually an entire subgenre of tango songs. Vd.
> https://www.todotango.com/english/biblioteca/letras/letras_tema.asp?idt=5&t=Mother
>
> Jake
> DC
>
>
> Tango Tango wrote:
> > Brian.
> >
> > Italian men cry because they miss their mommies.
> >
> >
> > https://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1945801,00.html
> >
> >
> > Neil
> >
> >
> > On 7/23/07, Brian Dunn <brian@danceoftheheart.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Dani, you wrote:
> >>
> >> On the other hand, Brian, as much as I thoroughly agree with you about
> >> Gustavo, I have to say the following to you:
> >> I get annoyed about peoples' ideas, which often flies in the face of the
> >> natural concept of what tango (in fact, almost any partnered dance but
> >> more
> >> so tango), in my opinion is... machismo vs femininity. The man is the
> >> predator, the woman is the prey, as has been since time immemorial (which
> >> is
> >> undoubtedly the reason why seeing women leading irritates me so much). To
> >> hear what should be a machismo tanguero talking of "sitting with tears in
> >> our eyes watching them dance" really turns my stomach. Men (even more so
> >> in
> >> the tango world) should be men... not wimps (American equivalent, I
> >> believe,
> >> is "wussy" or something).
> >> <<<
> >>
> >> Hey, Dani, relax. I agree with you about men and women in some ways that
> >> might surprise you, even if I'd extend and modify your metaphor
> >> considerably. "Sitting there with tears in our eyes" was a phrase
> >> motivated
> >> by watching my wife Deb ruin her makeup.
> >>
> >> On the other hand, I seem to recall lots of tough Italian guys in the
> >> "Godfather"-vein of our popular mythology who let themselves go
> >> emotionally
> >> at an opera, for example. In these popular portrayals, these guys seem
> >> like
> >> fellows that I wouldn't want to call a wimp, except maybe over a phone
> >> from
> >> an untraceable location. I'd say context is important in evaluating
> >> whether
> >> tears convey strong passionate emotion or "wussy-hood".
> >>
> >> In any case, I wish I'd been there in Rome with you!
> >>
> >> Abrazos,
> >> Brian Dunn
> >> Dance of the Heart
> >> 775 Pleasant Street
> >> Boulder, CO 80302 USA
> >> 303-938-0716
> >> www.danceoftheheart.com
> >> "Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:34:57 +0000 (GMT)
From: Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rampant serious misunderstandings about
"Gustavo"
To: ceverett@ceverett.com, "Jake Spatz \(TangoDC.com\)"
<spatz@tangodc.com>, Tango-L <tango-L@mit.edu>
Dear Tangueros,
You seem to forget that Argentines are fundamentally Italian. For example, look at the names of all the great tango bandleaders and composers... even the dancers, and let's not forget the majority of the Argentina Yellow Pages!
What is it they say?
"An Argentine is...
an Italian who speaks Spanish,
wants to be British,
dresses like the French,
and is arrogant like the Germans".
By the way, don't flame me! This is a quote but I can't remember where I saw it.
Very best wishes
Dani ~
`El Zorro de Tango' >:-)))))
~Tango*La Dolce Vita~
Email: dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu
Website: https://www.tango-la-dolce-vita.eu
Online photogalleries: https://www.flickr.com/photos/club_tango-la-dolce-vita/
https://www.flickr.com/people/club_tango-la-dolce-vita/
----- Original Message ----
Sent: Tuesday, 24 July, 2007 2:34:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rampant serious misunderstandings about "Gustavo"
Rob Hauk told me about this song where the guys woman leaves him,
and he's saying,
Victory! I can go live with my Mom again ... \
Victory! I can sleep late again ...
What Argentines have that the Italians don't is a lovely sense of irony.
Christopher
On Tue, 24 Jul 2007 01:48:45 -0400, "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)"
<spatz@tangoDC.com> said:
> Neil,
>
> This is virtually an entire subgenre of tango songs. Vd.
> https://www.todotango.com/english/biblioteca/letras/letras_tema.asp?idt=5&t=Mother
>
> Jake
> DC
>
>
> Tango Tango wrote:
> > Brian.
> >
> > Italian men cry because they miss their mommies.
> >
> >
> > https://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1945801,00.html
> >
> >
> > Neil
> >
> >
> > On 7/23/07, Brian Dunn <brian@danceoftheheart.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Dani, you wrote:
> >>
> >> On the other hand, Brian, as much as I thoroughly agree with you about
> >> Gustavo, I have to say the following to you:
> >> I get annoyed about peoples' ideas, which often flies in the face of the
> >> natural concept of what tango (in fact, almost any partnered dance but
> >> more
> >> so tango), in my opinion is... machismo vs femininity. The man is the
> >> predator, the woman is the prey, as has been since time immemorial (which
> >> is
> >> undoubtedly the reason why seeing women leading irritates me so much). To
> >> hear what should be a machismo tanguero talking of "sitting with tears in
> >> our eyes watching them dance" really turns my stomach. Men (even more so
> >> in
> >> the tango world) should be men... not wimps (American equivalent, I
> >> believe,
> >> is "wussy" or something).
> >> <<<
> >>
> >> Hey, Dani, relax. I agree with you about men and women in some ways that
> >> might surprise you, even if I'd extend and modify your metaphor
> >> considerably. "Sitting there with tears in our eyes" was a phrase
> >> motivated
> >> by watching my wife Deb ruin her makeup.
> >>
> >> On the other hand, I seem to recall lots of tough Italian guys in the
> >> "Godfather"-vein of our popular mythology who let themselves go
> >> emotionally
> >> at an opera, for example. In these popular portrayals, these guys seem
> >> like
> >> fellows that I wouldn't want to call a wimp, except maybe over a phone
> >> from
> >> an untraceable location. I'd say context is important in evaluating
> >> whether
> >> tears convey strong passionate emotion or "wussy-hood".
> >>
> >> In any case, I wish I'd been there in Rome with you!
> >>
> >> Abrazos,
> >> Brian Dunn
> >> Dance of the Heart
> >> 775 Pleasant Street
> >> Boulder, CO 80302 USA
> >> 303-938-0716
> >> www.danceoftheheart.com
> >> "Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 15:37:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Iron Logic <railogic@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rampant serious misunderstandings about
"Gustavo"
>>>
Wrong, Dani. I've taken his classes as both guy and girl.
>>>
Sometimes it helps to look inwards :)
>>>
For beginners upwards. At $750 per person.
Yes, you read that correctly. Details at https://tinyurl.com/273mqu .
>>>
$750??
Dear Chris, after you took classes from so many people, still can't get it....you should be honest and ask 'Mirror, mirror on the wall, can I dance?' . The answer should be: 'No'.
Relax...stop bitching and moaning...:))
"Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
> Chris, it's obvious you have never taken any classes/courses with Gustavo.
Wrong, Dani. I've taken his classes as both guy and girl.
> This is the teacher's (any teacher) job... to find new ways of conveying
> concepts.
Tough, isn't it? If only the old ways were not free to everyone! ;)
> go on one of Gustavo's seminarios
I'll pass, thanks. But others hereabouts might like to know of his
forthcoming "first Volcadas & Colgadas Tango Seminar in Europe".
For beginners upwards. At $750 per person.
Yes, you read that correctly. Details at https://tinyurl.com/273mqu .
--
Chris
PS
> By the way, 'Chris(UK)' sleeps with the fishes.
Correct. Lebistes reticulatus, mostly ;)
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 18:38:29 -0700 (MST)
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rampant serious misunderstandings about
"Gustavo"
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Chris UK writes:
> I'll pass, thanks. But others hereabouts might like to know of his
> forthcoming "first Volcadas & Colgadas Tango Seminar in Europe".
>
> For beginners upwards. At $750 per person.
>
> Yes, you read that correctly. Details at https://tinyurl.com/273mqu .
The course is actually 550 euros for 20 hours. 550
divided by 20 is 27.5 euros per hour. By way of comparison,
the classes at the upcoming Moscow Tango Festival are an hour
and fifteen minutes and retail for 30 euros apiece. But if
you buy a lot of them and pay in advance, that goes down to
24 euros per class, plus they throw in the milongas. So
27.5 euros per hour is perhaps a bit pricy, but not
outrageous, at least by what apparently are normal European
standards for group classes from traveling professionals.
The main problem is that a dollar used to be steadily
equivalent to a euro, within a penny or two. That's where
it was at the end of Clinton's term as US President. Now,
under George Bush, six years and countless dead bodies
later, it costs $750 to take the same course that would
have been $550, before George Bush decided to ring up the
largest deficit in US history by dumping billions of our
money (not to mention thousands of our lives and limbs)
into his sinkhole in Iraq, making our currency more and more
like toilet paper with each passing day. But hey, what am
I complaining about, at least I still have all of my arms
and legs.
So let's not lay the blame for the outrageousness of
$750 on Gustavo Naveira's doorstep, shall we.
Huck
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:02:41 -0300
From: "Meredith Klein" <meredithleeklein@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rampant serious misunderstandings about
"Gustavo"
To: "Huck Kennedy" <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<34cd2b720707270602r6dde0fa4ucddbc07160f0ccd8@mail.gmail.com>
Your points are valid, Huck, and there's also this: Gustavo and
Giselle travel with their two small children (who are about 2- and
5-years old) and their baby-sitter. Whereas generally organizers pay
for the travel of a single teacher or a couple, here they are paying
for travel and accommodation for five! Of course that has to be
reflected in the cost of the workshops. The fact that organizers are
still dying to book them is one sign of how important this couple is
to tango worldwide.
Here's another thought for everyone sitting at home in the US or
Europe or wherever and passing judgment on Gustavo and Giselle. Here
in Buenos Aires, there is pretty much only one class that people who
teach and dance tango professionally will consider going to: that of
Gustavo & Giselle. Most of the year, Gustavo & Giselle teach
foreigners both in (excellent) seminars here in Buenos Aires and in
workshops in Europe and the US. But because Gustavo has been one of
the main forces in tango education here for over 20 years (my husband
started studying with him as a child 20 years ago this November), he
still makes it a priority to offer classes for locals two months a
year at local prices (this year, $20AR per class). The classes take
place in La Manufactura Papelera in San Telmo and are attended by
about 100 people. The level of the students ranges from
beginner/intermediate to advanced to international professionals
working in tango for more than 15 years.
In a community where competition is rampant and people are hesitant to
acknowledge each other's skills, knowledge and success, the reverence
with which most of the tango community here in Buenos Aires views
Gustavo is exceptional.
On 26/07/07, Huck Kennedy <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu> wrote:
> Chris UK writes:
> > I'll pass, thanks. But others hereabouts might like to know of his
> > forthcoming "first Volcadas & Colgadas Tango Seminar in Europe".
> >
> > For beginners upwards. At $750 per person.
> >
> > Yes, you read that correctly. Details at https://tinyurl.com/273mqu .
>
> The course is actually 550 euros for 20 hours. 550
> divided by 20 is 27.5 euros per hour. By way of comparison,
> the classes at the upcoming Moscow Tango Festival are an hour
> and fifteen minutes and retail for 30 euros apiece. But if
> you buy a lot of them and pay in advance, that goes down to
> 24 euros per class, plus they throw in the milongas. So
> 27.5 euros per hour is perhaps a bit pricy, but not
> outrageous, at least by what apparently are normal European
> standards for group classes from traveling professionals.
>
> The main problem is that a dollar used to be steadily
> equivalent to a euro, within a penny or two. That's where
> it was at the end of Clinton's term as US President. Now,
> under George Bush, six years and countless dead bodies
> later, it costs $750 to take the same course that would
> have been $550, before George Bush decided to ring up the
> largest deficit in US history by dumping billions of our
> money (not to mention thousands of our lives and limbs)
> into his sinkhole in Iraq, making our currency more and more
> like toilet paper with each passing day. But hey, what am
> I complaining about, at least I still have all of my arms
> and legs.
>
> So let's not lay the blame for the outrageousness of
> $750 on Gustavo Naveira's doorstep, shall we.
>
> Huck
>
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:02:41 -0300
From: "Meredith Klein" <meredithleeklein@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rampant serious misunderstandings about
"Gustavo"
To: "Huck Kennedy" <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<34cd2b720707270602r6dde0fa4ucddbc07160f0ccd8@mail.gmail.com>
Your points are valid, Huck, and there's also this: Gustavo and
Giselle travel with their two small children (who are about 2- and
5-years old) and their baby-sitter. Whereas generally organizers pay
for the travel of a single teacher or a couple, here they are paying
for travel and accommodation for five! Of course that has to be
reflected in the cost of the workshops. The fact that organizers are
still dying to book them is one sign of how important this couple is
to tango worldwide.
Here's another thought for everyone sitting at home in the US or
Europe or wherever and passing judgment on Gustavo and Giselle. Here
in Buenos Aires, there is pretty much only one class that people who
teach and dance tango professionally will consider going to: that of
Gustavo & Giselle. Most of the year, Gustavo & Giselle teach
foreigners both in (excellent) seminars here in Buenos Aires and in
workshops in Europe and the US. But because Gustavo has been one of
the main forces in tango education here for over 20 years (my husband
started studying with him as a child 20 years ago this November), he
still makes it a priority to offer classes for locals two months a
year at local prices (this year, $20AR per class). The classes take
place in La Manufactura Papelera in San Telmo and are attended by
about 100 people. The level of the students ranges from
beginner/intermediate to advanced to international professionals
working in tango for more than 15 years.
In a community where competition is rampant and people are hesitant to
acknowledge each other's skills, knowledge and success, the reverence
with which most of the tango community here in Buenos Aires views
Gustavo is exceptional."
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 21:04 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rampant serious misunderstandings about
"Gustavo"
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Huck wrote:
> 27.5 euros per hour is perhaps a bit pricy, but not outrageous at least
> by what apparently are normal European standards for group classes from
> traveling professionals.
The price of this Gustavo seminar is about 3x normal. And 3x the price of
the last comparable event I heard of hereabouts - Los Ocampos in London.
> By way of comparison, the classes at the upcoming Moscow Tango Festival
...are the most expensive European classes you could have chosen. Partly
due to the 2x festival factor. Not a good example of normal, Huck.
Here's another comparison - round here, that $750 is entrance to 100
milongas. Regular dancers don't spend that kind of money on a single
seminar. Gustavo's customers will be almost exclusively teachers and other
tango workers, including those just buying a CV entry for good RoI.
Meredith wrote:
> Most of the year, Gustavo & Giselle teach foreigners both in (excellent)
> seminars here in Buenos Aires and in workshops in Europe and the US.
You're misinformed. They haven't taught workshops in Europe for years.
--
Chris
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 21:32 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rampant serious misunderstandings about
"Gustavo"
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> You're misinformed. They haven't taught workshops in Europe for years.
To clarify: ...prior to their arrival a few weeks ago.
--
Chris
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Rampant serious misunderstandings about "Gustavo"
*From:* "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
*CC:* tl2@chrisjj.com
*Date:* Fri, 27 Jul 2007 21:04 +0100 (BST)
Huck wrote:
> 27.5 euros per hour is perhaps a bit pricy, but not outrageous at least
> by what apparently are normal European standards for group classes from
> traveling professionals.
The price of this Gustavo seminar is about 3x normal. And 3x the price of
the last comparable event I heard of hereabouts - Los Ocampos in London.
> By way of comparison, the classes at the upcoming Moscow Tango Festival
...are the most expensive European classes you could have chosen. Partly
due to the 2x festival factor. Not a good example of normal, Huck.
Here's another comparison - round here, that $750 is entrance to 100
milongas. Regular dancers don't spend that kind of money on a single
seminar. Gustavo's customers will be almost exclusively teachers and other
tango workers, including those just buying a CV entry for good RoI.
Meredith wrote:
> Most of the year, Gustavo & Giselle teach foreigners both in (excellent)
> seminars here in Buenos Aires and in workshops in Europe and the US.
You're misinformed. They haven't taught workshops in Europe for years.
--
Chris
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 22:56:26 +0200
From: "Starmans Petra" <petra.starmans@befree.ch>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rampant serious misunderstandings about
"Gustavo"
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Hi Chris
G&G have not been in Europe for some years simply because of them having
their second child.
I think they had plenty of offers which they turned down until their family
could travel again.
Greetings from Zurich
Petra
Petra Starmans
Design, Konzept und Beratung
Staubstrasse 28
8038 Z?rich
petra@starmans.ch
044 262 06 55
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 14:27:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Iron Logic <railogic@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rampant serious misunderstandings about
"Gustavo"
you are a great source of useless trivia;)).
"Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote: > You're misinformed. They haven't taught workshops in Europe for years.
To clarify: ...prior to their arrival a few weeks ago.
--
Chris
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Rampant serious misunderstandings about "Gustavo"
*From:* "Chris, UK"
*CC:* tl2@chrisjj.com
*Date:* Fri, 27 Jul 2007 21:04 +0100 (BST)
Huck wrote:
> 27.5 euros per hour is perhaps a bit pricy, but not outrageous at least
> by what apparently are normal European standards for group classes from
> traveling professionals.
The price of this Gustavo seminar is about 3x normal. And 3x the price of
the last comparable event I heard of hereabouts - Los Ocampos in London.
> By way of comparison, the classes at the upcoming Moscow Tango Festival
...are the most expensive European classes you could have chosen. Partly
due to the 2x festival factor. Not a good example of normal, Huck.
Here's another comparison - round here, that $750 is entrance to 100
milongas. Regular dancers don't spend that kind of money on a single
seminar. Gustavo's customers will be almost exclusively teachers and other
tango workers, including those just buying a CV entry for good RoI.
Meredith wrote:
> Most of the year, Gustavo & Giselle teach foreigners both in (excellent)
> seminars here in Buenos Aires and in workshops in Europe and the US.
You're misinformed. They haven't taught workshops in Europe for years.
--
Chris
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 17:15:47 -0600
From: "Deb Sclar" <deb@danceoftheheart.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rampant serious misunderstandings about
"Gustavo"
Hey Gang,
No need to guess or argue about G&G appearances in Europe. The answer is
YES, si si si, they were just touring there this May & June!
Visit www.gustavoygiselle.com and you'll see their recent European &
American tour JUST concluding this weekend in Atlanta, GA with Rhonda &
Manuel, started with Pinot's fabulous TangoCamp this May in Dusseldorf,
Germany. They went on to Athens, Greece, then Tylosand, Sweden, wrapping in
Rome, Italy. They flew from Rome to Nora's Tango Week in San Francisco, CA &
just completed 2 weeks here in Boulder, Colorado with Dance of the Heart's
TangoEncuentro 2007.
They will be returning to Europe (I believe it's Paris, France & then parts
of Tuscany, Italia & possibly more?) this October.
Here's to clarity,
Deb Sclar
www.danceoftheheart.com
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rampant serious misunderstandings about "Gustavo"
you are a great source of useless trivia;)).
"Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote: > You're misinformed. They haven't
taught workshops in Europe for years.
To clarify: ...prior to their arrival a few weeks ago.
--
Chris
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Rampant serious misunderstandings about "Gustavo"
*From:* "Chris, UK"
*CC:* tl2@chrisjj.com
*Date:* Fri, 27 Jul 2007 21:04 +0100 (BST)
Huck wrote:
> 27.5 euros per hour is perhaps a bit pricy, but not outrageous at least
> by what apparently are normal European standards for group classes from
> traveling professionals.
The price of this Gustavo seminar is about 3x normal. And 3x the price of
the last comparable event I heard of hereabouts - Los Ocampos in London.
> By way of comparison, the classes at the upcoming Moscow Tango Festival
...are the most expensive European classes you could have chosen. Partly
due to the 2x festival factor. Not a good example of normal, Huck.
Here's another comparison - round here, that $750 is entrance to 100
milongas. Regular dancers don't spend that kind of money on a single
seminar. Gustavo's customers will be almost exclusively teachers and other
tango workers, including those just buying a CV entry for good RoI.
Meredith wrote:
> Most of the year, Gustavo & Giselle teach foreigners both in (excellent)
> seminars here in Buenos Aires and in workshops in Europe and the US.
You're misinformed. They haven't taught workshops in Europe for years.
--
Chris
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 01:34 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Rampant serious misunderstandings about
"Gustavo"
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Deb wrote
> they were just touring there ... started with Pinot's fabulous
> TangoCamp this May in Dusseldorf,
There was no Tangocamp this May in Dusseldorf. Perhaps you mean June's.
> Here's to clarity,
Indeed.
--
Chris
