4868 Red Rover
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 10:10:13 -0600
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Red Rover
To: TANGO-L@MIT.EDU
So create a milonga where ushers seat the men and women
separately. Women will not be likely to mosey on over to the men's
side to ask in person any of them to dance because it is scary over
there :-), so they will have to stay put and wait to be asked to
dance and everyone will have a chance to choose without pressure.
I like all kinds of milongas in BsAs, but it is important to not have
expectations that are incongruent with the essence of a particular
milonga. Many foreign dancers become disappointed with some milongas
in BsAs because they expect that it will be about dancing, but the
core essence is about socializing. For example, Nino Bien is one
such milonga. It is a popular place on Thursday evenings. Argentine
people go there to hang out with friends. Non-Argentine dancers go
there to dance and so they often feel out-of-tune with the
surrounding. Also, bigger venues create different possibilities.
But, seriously, if the purpose is dancing, then the milongas where
men and women are seated separately are the best. The important part
is also that people do not go and seat themselves in a segregated
area. They are actually escorted, at least the ladies are, to a
table. It often happens that if a foreign woman arrives alone, the
host of the milonga will find a good place for her, possible with
Argentine women, or a table where she might feel more
comfortable. People in Argentina are very sensitive to each other.
and milonga organizers in these milongas where people are escorted to
a table, try to place them well in the milonga.
I hope that you get to go to Argentina soon, Fan.
Warm regards,
Nina
At 09:39 AM 4/2/2007, you wrote:
>On 4/2/07, Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> wrote:
> >
> > When women and men sit separately, women dance a lot more. They have
> > an equal opportunity to invite and to be available to be invited.
> >
> > The seating arrangement also allows men to be free to choose their
> > partner without obligation to women who sit near by who may be
> > acquaintances or friends. When a man can choose freely, the energy
> > of the place changes dramatically. ... Most people dance almost every
> > tanda.
>
>
>
>Well, I don't suppose you could be just making this up, but I have to tell
>you it sounds pretty fantastic. The milongas I attend have never been
>anything so convivial.
>
>It's very easy to spend a sullen evening waiting for a dance and never to
>attract anyone's attention at all. It doesn't help that I'm very proud and
>won't ask a man for a dance. I feel Iike I lose a huge percentage of my
>possibilities because other women are bellying up to the men who I know like
>me and "challenging them to a dance" before those men are able to get to me.
>
>Men feel guilty about saying no to women's invitations, so those of us who
>wait to be invited ... sit.
>
>Fan
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 12:47:53 -0400
From: "Fantasia Sorenson" <bichonheels@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Red Rover
To: "Tango-L List" <tango-l@mit.edu>
<b0a530950704020947y6ee54368s86b926b586b52d95@mail.gmail.com>
On 4/2/07, Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> wrote:
>
> So create a milonga where ushers seat the men and women
> separately.
Nina,
I'm enjoying your "Woman in the Field" reports. It is definitely making my
mouth water at the prospect of getting to Argentina!
A milonga that ushers men and women to different places? In North America?
Does such a thing exist anywhere on my continent? Could it ever work?
Frankly, I don't see a single North American sitting still for "assigned
seats".
Fan
Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 12:55:43 -0400
From: Carol Shepherd <arborlaw@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Red Rover
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I do believe there is a gem of conventional wisdom here--women who are
waiting with women get more dances, and men who are grouped with men get
more dances, than do people who are sitting at mixed tables, and dancers
who are waiting alone and not conversing will do the best.
I find this discussion very interesting, and applicable to dances
generally (ie, not only milongas but salsa, swing, ballroom). It seems
that most of the organized dance scene in the US is structured to enable
socializing as much as if not more than dancing. I wonder if the
frequency of dancing would improve, if we tried separate men's and
women's sides as an experiment? (This is essentially a rhetorical
question, I can't imagine this kind of restriction on people's behavior
going over at all--so I don't expect an answer.)
I'm going to contact the local vintage dance group and see if they ever
do anything like this.
My initial reaction is that everyone--couples, singles--would object to
not sitting in the groups they desire to interact with. Have any of the
US organizers on this list tried anything like this?
Carol Shepherd
Nina Pesochinsky wrote:
> So create a milonga where ushers seat the men and women
> separately. Women will not be likely to mosey on over to the men's
> side to ask in person any of them to dance because it is scary over
...
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw PLC
Ann Arbor MI USA
734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
https://arborlaw.com
"legal solutions for 21st century businesses"
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 01:39:34 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Red Rover
To: "Fantasia Sorenson" <bichonheels@gmail.com>, "Tango-L List"
<tango-l@mit.edu>
Nina:
When a man can choose freely, the energy
> > of the place changes dramatically. ... Most people dance almost every
> > tanda.
>
Fan:
. The milongas I attend have never been
> anything so convivial.
>
> It's very easy to spend a sullen evening waiting for a dance and never to
> attract anyone's attention at all.
---------------------
I think, the difference between Fan's and Nina's experience is that Fan goes
to a milonga where there are much more women than men. (tell me about it!
Even in BA it is like that sometimes)
Fan: It doesn't help that I'm very proud and
> won't ask a man for a dance.
No, that indeed does does not help you at all, Fan... Don't you have a
Swedish last name? What's the problem with asking a man?
Fan: I feel Iike I lose a huge percentage of my
> possibilities because other women are bellying up to the men who I know
like
> me
If the men really liked you, they would turn the other women down and come
to you.
Fan: and "challenging them to a dance" before those men are able to get to
me.
I have seen some men give some pretty chilling reactions to the women in
such a scenario. Just the other day, a middle aged Italian dancer who I had
never seen here before, told me, he thought that most of the women were
"presumptious", that all of them think of themselves as "artists" even if
they can't dance well, that they treated him as though he should be grateful
for dancing with them, and that he had danced with that very old lady with
the salt and pepper hair because she was simply happy to be asked and danced
>from her heart... And that he had been sitting a lot during that night
because he did not like those other women. Ah, to talk to a Western man in
Tokyo--- all the secrets get spilled. ; )
He was the only seeminly good dancer left that I had not yet danced with at
the end of the milonga, so I sauntered over and asked him. He got up,
embraced me, walked a little with me, and said:"You are mine now!"
>
> Men feel guilty about saying no to women's invitations, so those of us who
> wait to be invited ... sit.
Well, see above. Not necessarily.
; )
Get your money's worth. Ask them, and beat the other women to the tandas.
Astrid
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 01:52:02 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Red Rover
To: "Fantasia Sorenson" <bichonheels@gmail.com>, "Tango-L List"
<tango-l@mit.edu>
a few more tricks, Fan:
make friends with some of the dancers in classes and practicas at the same
place where your milonga is. Greet everyone you know when you walk in at
night, hang out at the bar counter occasionally, and drop the message here
and there with men you know that you would like to dance with them "later".
If the man is macho enough to feel "put upon" if you ask him to dance
directly, this gives them a little freedom to choose the right moment, the
songs they like, and space for their big touchy ego... If then they still do
not come sooner or later and only dance with all those others on their
waiting list, it means, they really don't like you.
However a word of warning with Argentine men: some of them get downright
malicious and snotty if you ask them and will refuse on purpose just to make
a point of the fact that they are the only ones who have the Godgiven
right.., blablabla... Staring them down with a sexy smirk around the corners
of the eyes and the mouth often works, though... Plus a low neckline, nice
legs in high heels placed strategically... you know where men's brains are
located, right?
Astrid
Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2007 12:07:14 -0700
From: m i l e s <miles@tangobliss.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Red Rover
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Astrid,
>Plus a low neckline, nice legs in high heels placed
>strategically... you know where men's brains are located, right?
Not all men work like that!
While I enjoy a fine neckline myself and have come to appreciate a
women in heels. Although I find that most women would prefer to be
out of heels, and the lament that I hear from spending a long time in
heels is that its painful. So why on earth would I want to put
someone in something that's painful to them ? It doesn't look all
that wonderful to me. But then again, remember I'm the foreigner,
the american, not an argentine...so what do I know.
I digress...
My point here is that one's dancing ability is the first thing I look
at, not her neckline or shoes. That is icing on the cake. Because
if the cake tastes bad, the icing isn't going to make it anymore
palatable.
And to Fantasia, I would add that Astrid has a point, while we're
clearly rude by Argentine standards here in the states, and rarely do
we americans actually USE cabeceo, I see nothing wrong with asking a
man to dance. If he doesn't want to dance with you, he will find a
rather creative way to say 'NO'. In my short time as a lead, I've
had to say 'No' to someone. Its only when that person is persistent
that you have to get creative and find interesting methods to either
avoid making eye contact or saying 'No' to them because you don't
enjoy dancing with that person. So put yourself out there and do as
Astrid suggests: Drop the hint that you'd like to dance with the
intended man later. You're not directly asking for a dance right
then, but most men will take that as a hint and ask you to dance on
the spot or if they're already otherwise engaged will get back to you
for a raincheck. I've made my errors on this point because sometimes
you're just not able to get back to dance card. Most men, and I'm
speaking in generalities here, will either excuse themselves or ask
for a rain check later on at another milonga...because there's ALWAYS
another Milonga just around the corner.
M i l e s.
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 16:21:59 +0100
From: "John Ward" <johnofbristol@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Red Rover
To: "Tango-L List" <tango-l@mit.edu>
I have seen men and women seated separately in Finland. This seems to be the
custom in the old-fashioned "lavatanssit" rather than the urban "ravintolat"
such as the Vanhan Kellari in Helsinki or the Galax in Turku. Single people
go to the men's or women's side themselves; they aren't escorted there. If
you see a man and woman sitting together you know they are a couple. Such
places usually have an illuminated sign saying "Naisten haku" or "Miesten
haku" so you know who may approach others for a dance and who must sit
patiently and wait to be asked.
There seems to be an interesting custom developing in the Atriahalli in
Sein?joki.(I say "seems" because I think this is what is happening; but if I
ask about it, people say "oh, you can do what you like". But I can see that
they might not feel like explaining delicate nuances of etiquette to someone
who is halting at best in their language.) There is a particular area where
women stand if they want to dance. If they sit at the tables you may still
ask them, but you might be refused.
John Ward
Bristol, UK
