1365 rejection and "suggesting an improvement"
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 23:12:50 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: rejection and "suggesting an improvement"
I agree with most everything that
> the last one in the three said except the final
> assessment, rather than declining without comment, if
> the said dancer was hurting you why not suggest an
> improvement.
Because, in my experience with tango dancing men, the only thing for them
that is even worse and harder to take than rejection, is being criticized by
a woman on the dance floor and to be given any "suggestions for
improvement". Also an even surer way to not have him ask you again.
In my experience, if their dancing is not up to par, most men do not want to
know. At least not from anyone other than the teacher, during a lesson. And,
generally speaking, milongas are not the place to teach, anyway.
The other thing: if the man is leaning on the woman, is invading her axis at
every turn, does not let her finish her ochos without moving, has poor
balance in general, these are not things than cannot be improved and
corrected instantly after being told once. It takes months and years of
practise.
Also, there is a big difference between
a)dancers who are talented beginners, are trying hard, but just cannot do
any better yet. In their case, I am ready to help, and make some
suggestions. They usually welcome help.
and
b) dancers who have been around for months or even years, but just have not
bothered to practise much, are not trying hard enough, and are in general
not motivated to put in much effort into polishing up their technique. These
are the most likely candidates for a polite"Thank you, but no (more)". They
are also the ones who prefer to live permanently in the illusion that their
dancing is fine, or at least good enough to keep approaching the women and
taking them out on the dance floor. If one voices any criticism of their
style, they will simply move on to someone who does not, usually a female
beginner who can be more easily impressed, and is less demanding as far as
clean moves, musicality, sense of rhythm or good leading are concerned.
If there are any men out there who think , criticism and feedback is welcome
at all times, I will be happy to be convinced otherwise. But I do not have
my hopes up.
Astrid
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 11:07:09 -0500
From: Bibi Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: rejection and "suggesting an improvement"
I agree with Astrid's analysis of the two groups of dancers:
>a) trying hard talented beginners, b) dancers ..not trying hard enough,
>...simply move on to.. a female beginner...
Now since the golden rules is never "discuss" techniques at Milonga, I could
see the reason of why ladies tend to decline "b" group's invitation. I
could surmise that "b" type leaders may be more obvious in any community
with more ladies than men such as Japan, where there are lots of ladies
waiting like "spiced meat in a display case".
But are there chances where ladies invite men too? If there are, is it
possible for the gentlemen to decline too? (Answer is yes, more so in Bs As
even with the eye technique) If so, assuming we agree that genders are
equal, would the gentlemen also have to sit out the song for which they just
declined a lady?
In principle, I just don't understand why the rejector (ANY GENDER) has to
be punished to sit out the song afterwards, if his/her reason is not "white
lies of injury" but his/her genuine interest in trying to catch the eyes of
my desired-partner-to-be for that unique song/tanda.
People suggested to me to dance the first song only as the "not so rude"
solution. But by the time the couple returns to the seat (with the rejector
having to deliver another reason which might be equally awkward), chances
are, the desired-partner-to-be might have already partnered up with someone
else. Result? Sitting out by default.
In the salsa and swing scene, rejection may go both ways. But the dancers
continue to dance with other partners, we do not seem to be so hung up at
that moment at the dance place, let alone discussing it afterwards.
I assume we come to dance for pleasure, no?
Thus I support Jay's approach ("get off it, just get back to ..making the
experience as comfortable as possible"), and respectfully disagree with
Dan's suggestions that all invitations must be accepted till one is being
shipped to the emergency ward, even jokingly :-)
Bibi
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 19:44:46 GMT
From: michael <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: rejection and "suggesting an improvement"
I've read a lot about dealing with rejection and giving suggestions for improvement.
Women DO NOT owe men an explanation for declining a dance no differently than men DO NOT owe women an explanation for not inviting them to dance.
If the issue is one of principle, both sides are correct. However, if giving feedback for improvement is more important than principle, than I
I'll relate how I deal with problems.
For me, my biggest problem is a woman who is stiff, i.e. a very tight frame. Her right arm is a tight as a steel beam. It is very difficult to lead this type of woman because of her tight muscles, she can't feel the lead. The tight muscles in her arm will spread to her legs and she won't be able to move. I'm not driving a New York City "Fishbowl" Bus, which didn't have power steering. I'm not going to sacrifice my frame and fight force with force.
To signal her stiffness, I will lightly shake her arm or tell her to relax. If the woman tells me she's a beginner, I tell her "We all have to begin somewhere." Usually, her shoulders opens up and she can then dance. Sometimes, the fear of making a mistake causes a mistake to happen.
I'm not suggesting a woman teach a man how to dance, but I am suggesting a woman doesn't have to endure pain and should tell a man when she is in pain. "My hand hurts." "I losing my balance." Indirectly, the woman is telling the man he's doing a poor job of leading. If he is smart, he will try to understand what the woman is talking about. If he gets defensive and offensive, the woman should write down his name AND NEVER DANCE WITH HIM AGAIN!!
Men should try to follow. I know I learned what "wait for the woman" means when a woman lead me in ochos. She stepped sideways without waiting for me to pivot
If you want your community to grow, feedback is essential. If a man can't take feedback, he will never be a good dancer and will reach his potential very quickly.
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
I'd rather be dancing argentine tango
