1198  Same sex dancing partner.

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:15:47 -0700
From: Pablo Tapia <pablo.tapia@ASU.EDU>
Subject: Same sex dancing partner.

"In any case, people dance tango for different reasons and
that should be respected, as long as it's consensual."

Funny thought: Can dancing tango with somebody ever be nonconsensual?
Is there such a thing as a tango rape?

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 20:44:43 -0500
From: Bibi Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Same sex dancing partner.

"Funny thought: Can dancing tango with somebody ever be nonconsensual?
Is there such a thing as a tango rape?"

I am sorry to say, unfortuantely, yes! and it is a real problem.

When one dancer, being afraid of not being invited in the future or being
rejected in the future, continues to endure the discomfort during the dance.

I have one tanguera recently confiding in me that her bra's was losen during
a dance by a (seasoned) tanguero. She did not realize what was going on
until 4 years later during our conversation.

I heard many stories about being grobed.

It is very sad to see tango which had the luck to be elevated to a higher
cultural alter, may be treated (by some minority) as another tool for
harassement.

BB

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 02:34:21 +0000
From: Peter Jouliard <peter_jouliard@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Same sex dancing partner.

Bibi wrote
"When one dancer, being afraid of not being invited in the future or
being rejected in the future, continues to endure the discomfort during the
dance."
I'd say this dancer, being woman or man, lead or follow has a problem. (we
all have those problems, but that doesn't make it better).

"I heard many stories about being grobed."
What's so strange with that. People (we) don't change (our) character just
because we go dancing tango. So in tango as well as outside we find lots of
behaviour we do not like. (Our behaviour and that of others).

peter

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 10:53:29 +0800
From: Donald Hsu <donaldhsu@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Same sex dancing partner.

--- Bibi Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote: > "Funny
thought: Can dancing tango with somebody

> ever be nonconsensual?
> Is there such a thing as a tango rape?"
>
> I am sorry to say, unfortuantely, yes! and it is a
> real problem.
>
>
> It is very sad to see tango which had the luck to be
> elevated to a higher
> cultural alter, may be treated (by some minority) as
> another tool for
> harassement.
>
> BB

It is really sad but I have to agree - tango rape (or
at least harrassment) is an all too common occurrence
and is one of the causes of beginners turning away
from tango.

I am finding that the modern curriculum for followers
will necessariy have to include a section of how to
deal with such situations (and the intention of the
leader is immediately obvious from the initial
embrace). I am using the male-to-female abuse
direction; I am sure it happens in the opposite
direction as well.

From a more technical standpoint, a forced/brutal
lead or a self-guided/unled embellishment
(auto-ganchos or high-kicks off of a forward ocho)
counts as tango rape as well, yes?

Donald
desde Hong Kong

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 18:01:53 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: tango "rape" (was: Same sex dancing partner.)

>
> It is really sad but I have to agree - tango rape (or
> at least harrassment) is an all too common occurrence
> and is one of the causes of beginners turning away
> from tango.

I wouldn't know about "tango rape" in Japan, where people are rather shy,
and most men appear somewhat feminine, at least to the Western eye. In our
community in Tokyo, I know only one man I have deliberately turned down
because of his vibe from the first time I met him. (He kept hanging around
me like a dog in heat for the next half hour after that, so I knew, my
intuition was right).
Now, four years later, I ran into him at a tango fantasia class. And, since
I could not really refuse during practise, I had to dance with him. I was
amazed at his lack of innocence (even from a Japanese man in his sixties, I
have come to expect a certain amount of innocence), and the way he
unabashedly held me deliberately and uncomfortably close. But then we had to
practise straight-backward high stage ganchos of the woman. And I aimed my
gancho just as unabashedly, shamelessly high, with a certain purpose in
mind, and he went "Aaooooh !!!" I just grinned, and apologised
hippocrytically.

>
> >From a more technical standpoint, a forced/brutal
> lead ... counts as tango rape as well, yes?

I want the men concerned to know, that it certainly feels like that.

Having said that, I would like to add, that it also takes a certain woman to
get very nervous about expected or imagined sexual harassment, and it may
not always be the man who is at fault. In general, most men during tango are
too preoccupied with themselves, the music, the steps, the lead, and the
people around them to even think about sex, let alone, "raping" the woman.
And so are a lot of beginner women. When I started out, I was actually
surprised about the complete absence of erotic energy flow in the moves in
spite of the way they looked. I did not have a second to consider that until
I had gotten good enough to be able to relax during the dance, and take my
mind of trying to figure out how to move for moments at a time.

Astrid

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:17:33 -0700
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Same sex dancing partner.

In large communities (say 50+ regular weekly dancers), some of these
problems can sort themselves out and people can comfortably ignore
other people. However, in small communities, these problems can make
it uncomfortable. One can be faced with putting up with things just
to not make waves, to preserve the community, just to make it easier.
It is surprising how hurtful people can be if they see something as
a threat to the tango community, even if it doesn't affect them
directly. Yes, that person may have a problem he/she needs to work
on. And it's the fear of rejection in a social group that wins. As
this list has often showed, tangueros can be a very opinionated,
egotistical bunch.

One of my pet peeves - the guy teaches the follow the parada and
shows her how to rub her leg up & down his leg before she steps over,
sometimes physically taking her leg. Classless.

Trina

--- Peter Jouliard <peter_jouliard@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

> Bibi wrote
> "When one dancer, being afraid of not being invited in the future
> or
> being rejected in the future, continues to endure the discomfort
> during the
> dance."
> I'd say this dancer, being woman or man, lead or follow has a
> problem. (we
> all have those problems, but that doesn't make it better).
>
> "I heard many stories about being grobed."
> What's so strange with that. People (we) don't change (our)
> character just
> because we go dancing tango. So in tango as well as outside we find
> lots of
> behaviour we do not like. (Our behaviour and that of others).
>
> peter
>
>
>
>
> to
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>

=====
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.patangos.org/

Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 12:00:08 -0500
From: Bibi Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Same sex dancing partner.

Just want to respond to Astrid from her lively story :-) on uninvited gancho
vs. tango-rape-- a term raised by another member.

I define tango-"r" as a sexual persuit with an unconsenting partner, not
revenge or making a statement.

Is tango-"r" occurance less outside Bs As? I seem to think so.

BB

>From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
>Reply-To: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Same sex dancing partner.
>Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 13:17:33 -0700
>
>In large communities (say 50+ regular weekly dancers), some of these
>problems can sort themselves out and people can comfortably ignore
>other people. However, in small communities, these problems can make
>it uncomfortable. One can be faced with putting up with things just
>to not make waves, to preserve the community, just to make it easier.
> It is surprising how hurtful people can be if they see something as
>a threat to the tango community, even if it doesn't affect them
>directly. Yes, that person may have a problem he/she needs to work
>on. And it's the fear of rejection in a social group that wins. As
>this list has often showed, tangueros can be a very opinionated,
>egotistical bunch.
>
>One of my pet peeves - the guy teaches the follow the parada and
>shows her how to rub her leg up & down his leg before she steps over,
>sometimes physically taking her leg. Classless.
>
>Trina
>
>--- Peter Jouliard <peter_jouliard@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> > Bibi wrote
> > "When one dancer, being afraid of not being invited in the future
> > or
> > being rejected in the future, continues to endure the discomfort
> > during the
> > dance."
> > I'd say this dancer, being woman or man, lead or follow has a
> > problem. (we
> > all have those problems, but that doesn't make it better).
> >
> > "I heard many stories about being grobed."
> > What's so strange with that. People (we) don't change (our)
> > character just
> > because we go dancing tango. So in tango as well as outside we find
> > lots of
> > behaviour we do not like. (Our behaviour and that of others).
> >
> > peter
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > to
> > LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
> >
>
>
>=====
>PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
>Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social
>dance.
>https://www.patangos.org/
>