4127 the sandwich
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 01:12:53 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: the sandwich
Tine wrote:
> I leave out the sandwich not because it's too hard but because it's too
easy. If a beginner knows only 3 moves and one is the sandwich, you can see
they will do tons of sandwiches in every song and they will do it with
really bad musicality. Also, you are a guy so I'm assuming you don't wear
dainty shoes with open toes and open on the side, and so you don't imagine
that sanwiches can be really painful especially if there are lots - some
guys get very enthousiastic slamming their foot in, and sometimes you get
skin pinched under the sole when the guy puts weight onto his foot. I've had
nights where I wince every time I feel a sandwich coming and was close to
tears by 11.
While I agree with Tine that at times the sandwich can be a dull move (if it
happens at the wrong point and does not fit the music, like when the music
flows and the man stops suddenly, because of some combination he is trying
to execute in spite of the music), I also agree with Sergio that the
sandwich is too common a move to leave it out altogether from instruction.
I do not wear Comme il faut, I wear open toe shoes from Tara where the
opening is smaller and safer, but Tine's elegant brand of shoes has also
become very popular in Tokyo lately, I have noticed. However, the sandwich
has never been a problem here, I believe, no pain to endure on the dance
floor in relation to the sandwich, except for one experience I had a long
time ago, and the man was Argentine (a Santiagen~o, not a porten~o). I would
say that the problem was:
a) his shoes, not my shoes. he was not wearing soft leather dancing shoes,
but heavy thick leather street shoes, with thick soles, of which the edge
stood out from the shoe, too.
And b) at every sandwich he would veer around with his tall, big body, swing
his leg around and- slam! let his foot crash into the side of mine. Even my
sounds of pain and my wincing could not stop him, he even seemed to find
them amusing.
But I must say, Tine, this was the only man who ever did this to me. I am
sure that any man wearing proper dance shoes should feel a certain amount of
pain himself if he would slam into the woman like that, and with thin
leather he can also feel more of what he is doing.
No Japanese dancer I have danced with has ever attempted to do something
similar to this guy, and the sandwich has never been a problem. I have not
noticed any of the comme il faut wearing ladies wince in pain either though
those wide open toes and 4 inch high pencil thin stilettos do look a little
scary to me, in spite of all their elegance.
Astrid
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 09:55:36 -0700
From: Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: the sandwich
Hi Astrid
Thank you for your comments. Exactly what you described happened to me not once but several times in a short time span. It is creepy how similar the incident! Designer Italian dress shoes with the sole sticking out from under the shoe on all sides. Very hot and distinguished looking, but ouch!
Well if a move is often dull, unmusical and occasionally painful, I see nothing wrong with not including it with the top, what, half a dozen elements I teach in my accelerated beginners class. It is a no-brainer, i.e. if my girls dance with outside guys, it's a self-explanatory follow. If my guys fail to lead it on outside girls, I think they will not miss it, if anything they might feel that the dance had a nice flowing quality with no jarring fits and stops. I respectfully disagree with anybody who claims this move is more essential for the enjoyment of the dance than a sacada or a gancho, and it is certainly less essential than an ocho, a rock step, a quality turn and a thoughtful pause.
For the record, I teach that opening move/pause/end where the leader places his foot before the followers other foot arrives, causing a kind of sandwich of the guy foot btw the two girl feet instead of the other way around, of course there is no slamming by the girl and even if there were, the guy foot is suitably proteced by guy shoes.
I teach this move after they learn lots of other stuff and it gets some airtime, especially as an opening move, but not too much. Just about right I think. It's just vocabulary.
To be clear, the sandwich I have issue with is the one where the guy steps in with one foot then both as the girl's front foot is subjected to the sandwich, sometimes with the guy doing extra tapping, knee work and occasionally a meaningful look, and it is usually followed by a follower stepover also with an embellishment.
Tine
astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP> wrote:
Tine wrote:
> I leave out the sandwich not because it's too hard but because it's too
easy. If a beginner knows only 3 moves and one is the sandwich, you can see
they will do tons of sandwiches in every song and they will do it with
really bad musicality. Also, you are a guy so I'm assuming you don't wear
dainty shoes with open toes and open on the side, and so you don't imagine
that sanwiches can be really painful especially if there are lots - some
guys get very enthousiastic slamming their foot in, and sometimes you get
skin pinched under the sole when the guy puts weight onto his foot. I've had
nights where I wince every time I feel a sandwich coming and was close to
tears by 11.
While I agree with Tine that at times the sandwich can be a dull move (if it
happens at the wrong point and does not fit the music, like when the music
flows and the man stops suddenly, because of some combination he is trying
to execute in spite of the music), I also agree with Sergio that the
sandwich is too common a move to leave it out altogether from instruction.
I do not wear Comme il faut, I wear open toe shoes from Tara where the
opening is smaller and safer, but Tine's elegant brand of shoes has also
become very popular in Tokyo lately, I have noticed. However, the sandwich
has never been a problem here, I believe, no pain to endure on the dance
floor in relation to the sandwich, except for one experience I had a long
time ago, and the man was Argentine (a Santiagen~o, not a porten~o). I would
say that the problem was:
a) his shoes, not my shoes. he was not wearing soft leather dancing shoes,
but heavy thick leather street shoes, with thick soles, of which the edge
stood out from the shoe, too.
And b) at every sandwich he would veer around with his tall, big body, swing
his leg around and- slam! let his foot crash into the side of mine. Even my
sounds of pain and my wincing could not stop him, he even seemed to find
them amusing.
But I must say, Tine, this was the only man who ever did this to me. I am
sure that any man wearing proper dance shoes should feel a certain amount of
pain himself if he would slam into the woman like that, and with thin
leather he can also feel more of what he is doing.
No Japanese dancer I have danced with has ever attempted to do something
similar to this guy, and the sandwich has never been a problem. I have not
noticed any of the comme il faut wearing ladies wince in pain either though
those wide open toes and 4 inch high pencil thin stilettos do look a little
scary to me, in spite of all their elegance.
Astrid
************************
www.yaletangoclub.org
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:20:08 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: the sandwich
Is the parada with sandwich a common move on the dance floors of
Buenos Aires?
A local lady here has named it the "Dance, Monkey Girl, Dance" move,
because the guys sandwich her foot, then look at her like she's
supposed to do something... sort of like an organ grinder man with a
little monkey on a chain.
Another other moldy old cheese from early 1990s stage shows is the
shoe shine. I call it the warm puppy, because that is the sort of
passion with which she usually rubs his leg.
Every year there seems to be a new fad. For a long time it was the
bridge, you know, the move that screams "Carlos Gavito, 1991!". One
year it is volcadas, another year it is single axis-turns. This year
it seems to be leg wraps; there must be a new tango master traveling
about the US.
For a while, the floors are mobbed with intermediates doing these
things, then they get another figure from the next teacher coming
through.
On Apr 10, 2006, at 10:12 AM, astrid wrote:
> Tine wrote:
>> I leave out the sandwich not because it's too hard but because
>> it's too
> easy. If a beginner knows only 3 moves and one is the sandwich, you
> can see
> they will do tons of sandwiches in every song and they will do it with
> really bad musicality. Also, you are a guy so I'm assuming you
> don't wear
> dainty shoes with open toes and open on the side, and so you don't
> imagine
> that sanwiches can be really painful especially if there are lots -
> some
> guys get very enthousiastic slamming their foot in, and sometimes
> you get
> skin pinched under the sole when the guy puts weight onto his foot.
> I've had
> nights where I wince every time I feel a sandwich coming and was
> close to
> tears by 11.
>
> While I agree with Tine that at times the sandwich can be a dull
> move (if it
> happens at the wrong point and does not fit the music, like when
> the music
> flows and the man stops suddenly, because of some combination he is
> trying
> to execute in spite of the music), I also agree with Sergio that the
> sandwich is too common a move to leave it out altogether from
> instruction.
> ...
> Astrid
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 07:02:56 -1200
From: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: The sandwich is easy??
It's not as easy as you think. In fact many times, I've seen
it done incorrectly.
The man has to stop the woman with weight on both feet. His
right arm around her waist has to be firm to prevent her
from closing. If she closes, the opportunity to sandwich is
gone. If the man uses his left arm to lead, he will shove
the woman onto her back foot. Some women are taught that
when in a sandwich, pick up the front foot, gancho herself
and put it back down on the floor. The man can't find the
foot now because it's not where he placed it.
Another problem is the man "bites off more than he can chew"
and swallows the woman's foot. The woman has to perform a
tooth extraction to get the foot out.
And don't forget after the man sandwiches, he must face the
woman to maintain the alignment.
Easy?? Oh, sure.
Michael
Washington, DC
Caesar Salad for lunch, no sandwich
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 16:12:27 -0500
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: the sandwich
Neither the sandwich nor the front ocho are led often by good dancers in
Bs.As. I don't teach either as a beginning move, for the reasons that Tom
mentions. Both introduce the worst bad habits - the "ocho machine" for
women, and the arm lead in men. These can take years to fix. Not worth it.
I get some students who come to me with the front ocho - either from a video
or another teacher, and I tell them not to do it. This doesn't make them
happy, because they paid for it and it's so easy to do. But it's not tango.
It's ballroom.
Lois Donnay
Minneapolis, MN
> Is the parada with sandwich a common move on the dance floors
> of Buenos Aires?
>
>
> A local lady here has named it the "Dance, Monkey Girl,
> Dance" move, because the guys sandwich her foot, then look at
> her like she's supposed to do something... sort of like an
> organ grinder man with a little monkey on a chain.
>
> Another other moldy old cheese from early 1990s stage shows
> is the shoe shine. I call it the warm puppy, because that is
> the sort of passion with which she usually rubs his leg.
>
> Every year there seems to be a new fad. For a long time it
> was the bridge, you know, the move that screams "Carlos
> Gavito, 1991!". One year it is volcadas, another year it is
> single axis-turns. This year it seems to be leg wraps; there
> must be a new tango master traveling about the US.
>
> For a while, the floors are mobbed with intermediates doing
> these things, then they get another figure from the next
> teacher coming through.
>
>
>
> On Apr 10, 2006, at 10:12 AM, astrid wrote:
>
> > Tine wrote:
> >> I leave out the sandwich not because it's too hard but
> because it's
> >> too
> > easy. If a beginner knows only 3 moves and one is the sandwich, you
> > can see they will do tons of sandwiches in every song and
> they will do
> > it with really bad musicality. Also, you are a guy so I'm
> assuming you
> > don't wear
> > dainty shoes with open toes and open on the side, and so you don't
> > imagine
> > that sanwiches can be really painful especially if there are lots -
> > some
> > guys get very enthousiastic slamming their foot in, and sometimes
> > you get
> > skin pinched under the sole when the guy puts weight onto his foot.
> > I've had
> > nights where I wince every time I feel a sandwich coming and was
> > close to
> > tears by 11.
> >
> > While I agree with Tine that at times the sandwich can be a
> dull move
> > (if it happens at the wrong point and does not fit the music, like
> > when the music
> > flows and the man stops suddenly, because of some combination he is
> > trying
> > to execute in spite of the music), I also agree with Sergio that the
> > sandwich is too common a move to leave it out altogether from
> > instruction.
> > ...
> > Astrid
>
>
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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 10:08:27 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: the sandwich
I get some students who come to me with the front ocho - either from a video
or another teacher, and I tell them not to do it. This doesn't make them
happy, because they paid for it and it's so easy to do. But it's not tango.
It's ballroom.
Ballroom? With all respect, Lois, but this is ridiculous.
Astrid
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 19:22:25 -0700
From: Duende de Tango <duendedetango@MAC.COM>
Subject: Re: the sandwich
Sandwichito, Sandwiche, Sanguchito, Mordida ...
we sure make a lot of fuss over terms and steps
to this lovely dance we all continue to learn!
El Duende
>I get some students who come to me with the front ocho - either from a video
>or another teacher, and I tell them not to do it. This doesn't make them
>happy, because they paid for it and it's so easy to do. But it's not tango.
>It's ballroom.
>
>Ballroom? With all respect, Lois, but this is ridiculous.
>
>Astrid
--
Costa rica
©2004, por Duende de Tango, viviendo en el paraíso,
todos de los derechos reservados del mundo
Rich coast,
of flowers and dreams,
dancing nights,
and candle lights.
as the mist passes
into the night ...
I miss her breath
of life and ...
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 14:59:16 +0000
From: Lucia <curvasreales@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: The sandwich is easy??
The !sandwich! like so many other steps in Tango, is about flirt and tease - should be done sparingly, and never mechanically for it loses all meaning...
Lucia
Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET> escribis: It's not as easy as you think. In fact many times, I've seen
it done incorrectly.
The man has to stop the woman with weight on both feet. His
right arm around her waist has to be firm to prevent her
from closing. If she closes, the opportunity to sandwich is
gone. If the man uses his left arm to lead, he will shove
the woman onto her back foot. Some women are taught that
when in a sandwich, pick up the front foot, gancho herself
and put it back down on the floor. The man can't find the
foot now because it's not where he placed it.
Another problem is the man "bites off more than he can chew"
and swallows the woman's foot. The woman has to perform a
tooth extraction to get the foot out.
And don't forget after the man sandwiches, he must face the
woman to maintain the alignment.
Easy?? Oh, sure.
Michael
Washington, DC
Caesar Salad for lunch, no sandwich
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