4351  Self appointed, etc - threads seen as evidence

Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 16:11:25 +0000 (GMT)
From: Lucia <curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Self appointed, etc - threads seen as evidence
of a Cultural Strife
To: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>, tango-l@mit.edu

I believe that with this, and like recent threads, we are witnessing a phenomenon transcending the personal opinions of people holding misconceptions about Tango and the Argentine way of life.

We are witnessing yet another manifestation of the effects of globalization, such as the strife about McDonalds in France and Italy, Disneyworld in France, the fight against anglicization of national languages throughout the world.

So now we have self-righteous non-Argentines preaching how to dance, no, How to Change! a National Heritage not their own. We get even missionaries of this New World coming to Buenos Aires, like a certain Lois from Minnesota (pardon me, Loisita! in BsAs) peddling their concept of Tango.

Feel free re-inventing Argentine Tango at home, why not, it is fun after all (I am sincere), it has been done and there are different flavors of Tango in the world, but please let go of the Argentine National Patrimony.

Lucia


Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com> escribi?: Dear friends of tango-L,

Over the many years that we have been together
reading, exchanging ideas, discussing tango topics, few subjects have been
so controversial as: tango roles and tango styles.

I think that few times we have had a discussion like the one we are having
about "women leading".
Very few times so many people expressed their ideas so clearly with honesty
and conviction.

The benefit of such discussion is that, hopefully we all are learning
something, I know I learned a lot.

We always try (as required by the rules of the list) to center our
discussion on ideas and not on the personality of the posters.

Most of the contributors to this list follow those rules. Over the years
there have been very few exceptions.

My initial intention was to discuss tango roles and then proceed to discuss
rituals and codes of the milongas of Buenos Aires but while considering my
intervention on those subjects finished I am going to drift somewhat away
from the rules of the list.

My first question today was "who is Jake Spatz ?" - nobody seems to know
him.

But you know what? it is difficult to know who he is.
The following comes from his web page:

"News
Born with the mysterious ability to resemble everyone but himself, JAKE
SPATZ has frequently (and repeatedly) been mistaken for an Italian, a
Scotsman, an Argentine, a southerner, an Arab, a Turk, Vladimir Lenin, and a
mulatto. In point of fact, he is a semi-ambidextrous American of Eastern
European descent."

As you can see, it is difficult to figure out what or who he is but in
actuality he seems to be some sort of a genius with multiple personalities

Most Argentine males, born and raised in the culture of tango attend lessons
and practicas for two years before they venture into a real milonga; many
consider that it takes about 10 years of regular dancing to really know
tango well enough to teach and to make a good interpretation of the
different orchestras.

Not Jake, no sir! - he became a professor of tango in less than two years
of regular dancing.

According to his web page he is not only able to teach close and open
embrace tango but most other styles as well.

His page says:

"Jake Spatz was an instant tango addict after his first lesson in Brooklyn's
Art Land Bar, but was also an instant quitter and an insanely busy fellow.
He finally started dancing regularly in Oct. 2004 after moving back to the
DC area, and is now an active presence in the DC tango community. Besides
dancing socially, teaching, and performing, Jake now translates tango lyrics
as well, and recites one every Wednesday night at Divino Lounge (Bethesda,
MD). "

He also performs and guess what? - he translates tango lyrics, free version
of lyrics that is.

He reads his translations every week . They are full of misunderstandings
but that does not affect the general meaning of the translation. What
describes very well his personality is something that he writes about, in
his page.

Obviously he is not Argentine, I doubt very much even that he ever visited
Argentina, but who knows?

In any case, he translates the title of the tango "El ciruja" as " - the
surgeon" (surgeon in Spanish is cirujano no ciruja) ciruja in Argentina
means bum, vagrant.

Now this could be an honest mistake like many others he has in his
translations but... Viviana Levison, an excellent tango teacher of DC,
Argentine and intelligent woman tells him "Jake, Ciruja means bum, not
surgeon" He thanks her, enters what she said in his page, expresses his
intention to investigate later and keeps the erroneous translation in place.
Another Argentine lady attemted to explain something erroneous about his
translation of 'compadrito" incertain context but again he knows more than
any Argentine native and did not accept her explanation. He again writes
about his discussion in his page.

Does all this relates to tango? - I think it does. What do you think about
tango teaching in some places of the USA.

As Derik says: what do you think of such self appointed tango teachers?.

As to Bruno Romero... the poor guy has read a couple of booklets about tango
history, probably those of Maria del Carmen Silingo, and proclaimed himself
Tango historian.

How was that I am criticized by these two subscribers? It is not about my
ideas, not indeed, it is because I disagreed with what they said.

Jake falsely represented the neighborhoods of Bs.As. as a sort of a Gangs of
New York or L.A. situation, with people killing each other not over drugs
but over tango styles: I told him this was not so.

Bruno writes all sort of misconceptions about tango history and once in a
while I corrected them.
Now he call a spade a spade. :)))

This is the situation in tango-L and in the world of self appointed tango
teachers and tango historians.

Good night, Sergio





Yahoo! Autos. M?s de 100 veh?culos vendidos por d?a.
?Qu? esper?s para vender el tuyo?
Hacelo ahora y ganate un premio de Yahoo!

Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 10:26:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Self appointed, etc - threads seen as evidence
of a Cultural Strife
To: Lucia <curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar>, Sergio Vandekier
<sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>, tango-l@mit.edu

Dear Lucia:

Exactly. I agree with you completely.

Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com

--- Lucia <curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar> wrote:

> I believe that with this, and like recent threads,
> we are witnessing a phenomenon transcending the
> personal opinions of people holding misconceptions
> about Tango and the Argentine way of life.
>
> We are witnessing yet another manifestation of the
> effects of globalization, such as the strife about
> McDonalds in France and Italy, Disneyworld in
> France, the fight against anglicization of
> national languages throughout the world.
>
> So now we have self-righteous non-Argentines
> preaching how to dance, no, How to Change! a
> National Heritage not their own. We get even
> missionaries of this New World coming to Buenos
> Aires, like a certain Lois from Minnesota (pardon
> me, Loisita! in BsAs) peddling their concept of
> Tango.
>
> Feel free re-inventing Argentine Tango at home,
> why not, it is fun after all (I am sincere), it has
> been done and there are different flavors of Tango
> in the world, but please let go of the Argentine
> National Patrimony.
>
> Lucia
>
>
> Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
> escribi?: Dear friends of tango-L,
>
> Over the many years that
> we have been together
> reading, exchanging ideas, discussing tango topics,
> few subjects have been
> so controversial as: tango roles and tango styles.
>
> I think that few times we have had a discussion like
> the one we are having
> about "women leading".
> Very few times so many people expressed their ideas
> so clearly with honesty
> and conviction.
>
> The benefit of such discussion is that, hopefully we
> all are learning
> something, I know I learned a lot.
>
> We always try (as required by the rules of the list)
> to center our
> discussion on ideas and not on the personality of
> the posters.
>
> Most of the contributors to this list follow those
> rules. Over the years
> there have been very few exceptions.
>
> My initial intention was to discuss tango roles and
> then proceed to discuss
> rituals and codes of the milongas of Buenos Aires
> but while considering my
> intervention on those subjects finished I am going
> to drift somewhat away
> from the rules of the list.
>
> My first question today was "who is Jake Spatz ?" -
> nobody seems to know
> him.
>
> But you know what? it is difficult to know who he
> is.
> The following comes from his web page:
>
> "News
> Born with the mysterious ability to resemble
> everyone but himself, JAKE
> SPATZ has frequently (and repeatedly) been mistaken
> for an Italian, a
> Scotsman, an Argentine, a southerner, an Arab, a
> Turk, Vladimir Lenin, and a
> mulatto. In point of fact, he is a semi-ambidextrous
> American of Eastern
> European descent."
>
> As you can see, it is difficult to figure out what
> or who he is but in
> actuality he seems to be some sort of a genius with
> multiple personalities
>
> Most Argentine males, born and raised in the culture
> of tango attend lessons
> and practicas for two years before they venture into
> a real milonga; many
> consider that it takes about 10 years of regular
> dancing to really know
> tango well enough to teach and to make a good
> interpretation of the
> different orchestras.
>
> Not Jake, no sir! - he became a professor of tango
> in less than two years
> of regular dancing.
>
> According to his web page he is not only able to
> teach close and open
> embrace tango but most other styles as well.
>
> His page says:
>
> "Jake Spatz was an instant tango addict after his
> first lesson in Brooklyn's
> Art Land Bar, but was also an instant quitter and an
> insanely busy fellow.
> He finally started dancing regularly in Oct. 2004
> after moving back to the
> DC area, and is now an active presence in the DC
> tango community. Besides
> dancing socially, teaching, and performing, Jake now
> translates tango lyrics
> as well, and recites one every Wednesday night at
> Divino Lounge (Bethesda,
> MD). "
>
> He also performs and guess what? - he translates
> tango lyrics, free version
> of lyrics that is.
>
> He reads his translations every week . They are
> full of misunderstandings
> but that does not affect the general meaning of the
> translation. What
> describes very well his personality is something
> that he writes about, in
> his page.
>
> Obviously he is not Argentine, I doubt very much
> even that he ever visited
> Argentina, but who knows?
>
> In any case, he translates the title of the tango
> "El ciruja" as " - the
> surgeon" (surgeon in Spanish is cirujano no
> ciruja) ciruja in Argentina
> means bum, vagrant.
>
> Now this could be an honest mistake like many others
> he has in his
> translations but... Viviana Levison, an excellent
> tango teacher of DC,
> Argentine and intelligent woman tells him "Jake,
> Ciruja means bum, not
> surgeon" He thanks her, enters what she said in his
> page, expresses his
> intention to investigate later and keeps the
> erroneous translation in place.
> Another Argentine lady attemted to explain
> something erroneous about his
> translation of 'compadrito" incertain context but
> again he knows more than
> any Argentine native and did not accept her
> explanation. He again writes
> about his discussion in his page.
>
> Does all this relates to tango? - I think it does.
> What do you think about
> tango teaching in some places of the USA.
>
> As Derik says: what do you think of such self
> appointed tango teachers?.
>
> As to Bruno Romero... the poor guy has read a couple
> of booklets about tango
> history, probably those of Maria del Carmen Silingo,
> and proclaimed himself
> Tango historian.
>
> How was that I am criticized by these two
> subscribers? It is not about my
> ideas, not indeed, it is because I disagreed with
> what they said.
>
> Jake falsely represented the neighborhoods of Bs.As.
> as a sort of a Gangs of
> New York or L.A. situation, with people killing each
> other not over drugs
> but over tango styles: I told him this was not so.
>
> Bruno writes all sort of misconceptions about tango
> history and once in a
> while I corrected them.
> Now he call a spade a spade. :)))
>
> This is the situation in tango-L and in the world of
> self appointed tango
> teachers and tango historians.
>
> Good night, Sergio
>
>
> Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN
> Search!
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Autos. M?s de 100 veh?culos vendidos por
> d?a.
> ?Qu? esper?s para vender el tuyo?
> Hacelo ahora y ganate un premio de Yahoo!
>
>