2352 Sequences are not a problem. ONLY sequences are.
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 11:17:52 EST
From: LGMoseley@AOL.COM
Subject: Sequences are not a problem. ONLY sequences are.
There has been much discussion recently on the group about whether to teach
sequences or not. They often are examples of either/or thinking. Those who like
to analyse and lay bare the logic of the Tango can also feel the emotion.
They are also in a position to teach not sequences, but fundamentals of movement.
It is the people who do not understand those fundamentals who have to fall
back on sequences.
My own preference is for not teaching sequences. However, I admit that there
are some people who appear to crave them (especially people who come from
other dance traditions, such as ballroom, Ceroc, Lindy, or Jazz Jive). In such
cases, it seems to me to be reasonable to teach sequences. However, the problem
arises when you teach only sequences. It's not the sequences that are the
problem; it is the lack of any alternative.
For me, one of the major charms of Tango is that the leader can change his
mind on any step (normally when one is that 'brush' or 'and' part of the step),
and the follower can respond comfortably to any such change of mind. That
really is on any step, not on any sequence or sequence-of-sequences.
An example.
Some , in my experience many, women automatically dance a giro as a
Slow-Slow-Quick-Quick-Ocho-Ocho movement. That pace of movement is one of the
possibilities, but it is only one. If the woman dances in this way, all the choice,
variety, and communication is taken out of the movement.
I prefer to do the initial teaching of the basic Giro as a 4-step pattern
with 4 equally weighted beats. However, I will also show people how to turn it
into a 1, 2 or 3 step pattern. (e.g. by coming out in Caminando para atras on
step 3, or by throwing in a drag on step 4, or by putting in a quick-quick step
for the man on beat 1 thus changing from parallel to crossed or vice-versa,
inter alia). I also like them to learn that one, but only one, of the
possibilities is that it can be led as the Slow-Slow-Quick-Quick-Ocho-Ocho movement
which I have just complained about. However, that in that case, it is led - it
is not automatic.
Thus, I would argue that learning in dancing sequences is on its own not a
danger. It is learning and dancing only sequences that is the problem.
If one can use words, one can create many sentences (some of which are
original, but many of which have been uttered before - i.e. sequences). If all one
knows are other peoples' sentences, but no individual words, then the scope of
your communication and fun is much restricted. So, in Tango, let us start with
the words. We can create then create the sentences.
Incidentally, my experience is that women like men who move well and lead
gently but firmly, irrespective of whether they do sequences or not. I am
constantly surprised and delighted when women tell me how much they enjoy dancing
with one of my students. Some of them enjoy him with sequences; some without.
Abrazos
Laurie
In a message dated 02/04/2004 19:04:17 GMT Daylight Time,
chrisjj.egroups@chrisjj.com writes:
Interesting to see that (so far) those advocating sequences are all men and
those not are all women.
This idea that teaching sequences is a practical way to teach the basics of
body movement could surely never come from a follower. Teach sequences, and
people learn sequences. To teach basic body movement, teach basic body
movement. The real reason so many teach sequences? See Ruth's "1)" above.
Beginner Guys please note: girls hate it. "But no girl's told me she doesn't
like dancing with me" one sequence-taught guy told me. What does he think
"No thanks, my feet are tired" means?
But don't take my (or anyone's) word for it. Ask yourself what brings you to
tango. A fascination with "logic" and "analysis"? You might be happier doing
chess or computer programming. A passion to share a feeling for the music
with one whose enjoyment you make, for that moment, the most important thing
in the world? You already have the answers.
"The tango is not a dance to demonstrate ability but rather an
interpretation of feeling. It is not just moving your feet and posturing.
The tango is Argentine, but it belongs to all those who understand its
feelings and its codes. Guys, to dance tango, you must listen to the heart
of the woman." Cacho Dante
Chris
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 12:46:47 -0500
From: Michael B Ditkoff <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Sequences are not a problem. ONLY sequences are.
I'm completely opposed to teaching sequences because you fall into the
trap of learning that there is just ONE way to dance tango. I remember
telling my private teacher near the beginning of our association, "you
can't do ochos at the beginning of the dance." He said "Wanna bet?" I was
taught to take the woman to the cross and THEN lead ochos. Another
example is that molinetes have to begin on the back step or it's always
back-side-forward. I once mystified a woman when I lead
forward-side-FORWARD because I wanted to sweep her foot on the second
forward step. Her body automatically responded forward-side-BACK. I
didn't lead back but that didn't stop her from pivoting to step
backwards. To emphasize the point, I lead her in a molinete of
back-side-back-side-back-side. With every back step I could feel her body
try to turn for a forward step.
Teachers need to emphasize that tango is danced ONE STEP AT A TIME!!
People who come from ballroom (I'm one of them) are so used to structure,
that when given complete freedom, we don't know what to do with it.
Michael
Washington, DC
On Sat, 3 Apr 2004 11:17:52 EST LGMoseley@AOL.COM writes:
> There has been much discussion recently on the group about whether to >
teach> sequences or not. They often are examples of either/or thinking.
>
> My own preference is for not teaching sequences. However, I admit >
that there> are some people who appear to crave them (especially people
who come > from> other dance traditions, such as ballroom, Ceroc, Lindy,
or Jazz
> Abrazos
>
> Laurie
> "The tango is not a dance to demonstrate ability but rather an
> interpretation of feeling. It is not just moving your feet and
> posturing.
> The tango is Argentine, but it belongs to all those who understand
> its
> feelings and its codes. Guys, to dance tango, you must listen to the
> heart
> of the woman." Cacho Dante
>
> Chris
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2004 15:19:18 -0800
From: Patricio Touceda <tangueros2001@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Sequences are not a problem. ONLY sequences are.
Micheal
I TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH ALL YOU SAID.
I understand a beginner student need to be structured.
totaly freedom does not work. Ppl need a structure to have a place to start.
Then, when they have a little bit more od experience the teacher will make
them discover
that things can be streched and pulled to go out of the structure.
I think you talk like that, because you forgot when you first started.
And this is especially good for group classes.
WTB human beings are use to structure... not only ballroom dancers.
Bye to all!!
Patricio
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2004 9:46 AM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Sequences are not a problem. ONLY sequences are.
> I'm completely opposed to teaching sequences because you fall into the
> trap of learning that there is just ONE way to dance tango. I remember
> telling my private teacher near the beginning of our association, "you
> can't do ochos at the beginning of the dance." He said "Wanna bet?" I was
> taught to take the woman to the cross and THEN lead ochos. Another
> example is that molinetes have to begin on the back step or it's always
> back-side-forward. I once mystified a woman when I lead
> forward-side-FORWARD because I wanted to sweep her foot on the second
> forward step. Her body automatically responded forward-side-BACK. I
> didn't lead back but that didn't stop her from pivoting to step
> backwards. To emphasize the point, I lead her in a molinete of
> back-side-back-side-back-side. With every back step I could feel her body
> try to turn for a forward step.
>
> Teachers need to emphasize that tango is danced ONE STEP AT A TIME!!
> People who come from ballroom (I'm one of them) are so used to structure,
> that when given complete freedom, we don't know what to do with it.
>
> Michael
> Washington, DC
>
> On Sat, 3 Apr 2004 11:17:52 EST LGMoseley@AOL.COM writes:
> > There has been much discussion recently on the group about whether to >
> teach> sequences or not. They often are examples of either/or thinking.
> >
> > My own preference is for not teaching sequences. However, I admit >
> that there> are some people who appear to crave them (especially people
> who come > from> other dance traditions, such as ballroom, Ceroc, Lindy,
> or Jazz
> > Abrazos
> >
> > Laurie
> > "The tango is not a dance to demonstrate ability but rather an
> > interpretation of feeling. It is not just moving your feet and
> > posturing.
> > The tango is Argentine, but it belongs to all those who understand
> > its
> > feelings and its codes. Guys, to dance tango, you must listen to the
> > heart
> > of the woman." Cacho Dante
> >
> > Chris
>
>
Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2004 08:01:00 -0400
From: Michael B Ditkoff <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Sequences are not a problem. ONLY sequences are.
Patricio:
I stand on what I wrote. Too much structure causes women to think "I
always cross on 5" or men to think "I always start backwards on my right
foot." It's the ALWAYS that causes the problems. If the teacher explains
you have many alternatives, but illustrates ONE as an example, not as
gospel, I can accept it. I see how people learn. Whatever the teacher
says, they think that's the ONLY way to do it. That style of teaching
leads to robots dancing tango.
Michael
P.S. What does WTB mean?
On Sat, 3 Apr 2004 15:19:18 -0800 Patricio Touceda
<tangueros2001@HOTMAIL.COM> writes:
> Micheal
>
> I TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH ALL YOU SAID.
> I understand a beginner student need to be structured.> totaly freedom
does not work. Ppl need a structure to have a place > to start.> Then,
when they have a little bit more od experience the teacher > will make
> them discover> that things can be streched and pulled to go out of the
structure.> I think you talk like that, because you forgot when you first
> started.> And this is especially good for group classes.
> WTB human beings are use to structure... not only ballroom dancers.
>
> Bye to all!!
>
>
> Patricio
>
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 11:29:19 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@BRUSSELS.SGI.COM>
Subject: Re: Sequences are not a problem. ONLY sequences are.
LGMoseley@aol.com wrote:
> However, the problem
> arises when you teach only sequences.
Not even that. I have no qualms with teachers that only teach sequences -
it's up to the actual dancers to crack the sequences in small nibblets and
to reassemble them at will (while improvising to the music and the state
of the dance floor).
True, teachers need to help their pupils understand that (long) sequences
are assemblies, and aren't cast in concrete. One way for them to do so is
to teach a basic sequence, but then to teach many small variants in which
one part of the sequence is slightly or radically changed...
--
Alexis Cousein Senior Systems Engineer
alexis@sgi.com SGI Brussels
Nobody Expects the Belgian Inquisition!
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2004 04:57:15 -0700
From: Patricio Touceda <tangueros2001@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Sequences are not a problem. ONLY sequences are.
Hi Micheal, thanks for your e-mail.
I understand your point, but im very succes with my style of teaching wich
is.
at the beginning... paterns, then understanding that all the paterns can be
changed having the freedom that you talk about.
That makes brains blow sometimes. so, i introduce that to my students
slowly.
and sometimes... i really enjoy very much the nice work of my little robots
:)
WTB means BTW wich is by the way.. sorry.
I dont want you to change your mind.
I want you to know that are diferent ways of going to the same place.
And the result can be good anyway.
When you say "TEACHERS SHOUL FOCUS ON....."
Is too much.
Bye!
Thanks again for your reply.
See ya.
Patricio
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 01:53:44 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@BRUSSELS.SGI.COM>
Subject: Re: Sequences are not a problem. ONLY sequences are.
Michael B Ditkoff wrote:
> Patricio:
> I stand on what I wrote. Too much structure causes women to think "I
> always cross on 5"
Too much structure *without enough variation*.
If only the teacher would teach another sequence without a cross on
the DC8B, the leaders would *have* to lead that step, and the
followers wouldn't learn to autopilot.
I'm not against sequences to explore the flight envelope - just wary
of teachers not covering enough of the flight envelope in a way
designed to avoid the formation of bad habits (by careful application
of the Spanish Inquisition principle[1] in new sequences to keep
everyone on their toes).
[1] Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 12:20:32 -0700
From: Philip Seyer <philipseyer@ILOVEMUSIC.COM>
Subject: Fw: [TANGO-L] Sequences are not a problem. ONLY sequences are.
In one class for beginners, I recall from many years ago, the instructor did
explictly ask leaders *not* to lead a cross on five of 8CB. Her point was
that the cross needs to be led.
A couple of other teachers, I learned from aroudn this time, taught the
automatic cross. Another example, that there are many ways to dance tango.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alexis Cousein" <al@BRUSSELS.SGI.COM>
> To: <TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
> Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 4:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Sequences are not a problem. ONLY sequences are.
>
>
> > Michael B Ditkoff wrote:
> >
> > > Patricio:
> > > I stand on what I wrote. Too much structure causes women to think "I
> > > always cross on 5"
> >
> > Too much structure *without enough variation*.
> >
> > If only the teacher would teach another sequence without a cross on
> > the DC8B, the leaders would *have* to lead that step, and the
> > followers wouldn't learn to autopilot.
> >
> > I'm not against sequences to explore the flight envelope - just wary
> > of teachers not covering enough of the flight envelope in a way
> > designed to avoid the formation of bad habits (by careful application
> > of the Spanish Inquisition principle[1] in new sequences to keep
> > everyone on their toes).
> >
> > [1] Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
>
