1251 Shady reputation
Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 21:36:42 -0400
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Shady reputation
Mary Nicolas says " Horacio is not the first tango
teacher with a shady reputation that has come from Argentina and he will
certainly not be the last. If anything the letters should teach us how to
look out for these characters in the future so we can protect each other in
the tango community."
I only read the sequence of notes that Lucy E. Lynch just removed from the
internet as I had discarded my E-Mails on the subject without reading them.
Some people talk about a female friend victimized, who had made a mistake as
well ????. Mary Nicolas accepts as a fact that "El Pibe"Avellaneda has a
shady reputation the sane as other instructors that came from Argentina???.
She further asserts that it is very important to look out for them in the
future... for protection.
I agree entirely with Mary, ... for my protection ? and the protection of my
tango students friends, I would like to know the name of such
instructors.(since I ignore who the tango teachers with shady reputation
are).
I would also like to know (for protection) in what way any of those "shady
characters" (that come and "will continue to come in the future" from
Argentina ) have hurt or victimized their students.
I thank Mary in advance for her valuable input in this respect.
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 05:29:10 -0500
From: Clayton Beach <akumushi@ONEBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: Shady reputation
Sergio writes:
>>>... for my protection ? and the protection of my
tango students friends, I would like to know the name of such
instructors.(since I ignore who the tango teachers with shady reputation
are).
I would also like to know (for protection) in what way any of those "shady
characters" (that come and "will continue to come in the future" from
Argentina ) have hurt or victimized their students.<<<
Mmmm, yes, I believe these shady characters coming from Argentina are a problem that we should be protected from. Perhaps someone should alert the director of the Department of Homeland Security that all Argentinean tango instructors must have full background checks before entering the United States. The subsequent data should then be released and analyzed on the Tango-L, thus making the world a safer place in which to dance...
Come on people. Regardless of nationality and gender, anyone in any profession has the potential to end up being a licentious usurer. Certainly, if you are wronged by an individual you should let it be known. Even then, it doesn't have to be a soap opera. A simple warning that so and so is unscrupulous in business and personal relationships, and you've said your piece. As for what we can do to protect ourselves, common sense might help. The tango scene abounds with scandals, and the people involved, vandal and victim alike, are spread across a large spectrum of nationalities. The only thing that we can do is see every teacher as an individual, using common sense and keeping after your own interests. Most of the ones that do cause scandals are obvious philanderers, and somehow the women just get blinded by the tango instructor aura. I guess the seductive powers of the tango draw some of the masters to the dark side...
--
Clayton Beach
akumushi@onebox.com
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 21:01:25 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Shady reputation
Thank you Clayton, for a voice of reason. As you wrote,
...
Come on people. Regardless of nationality and gender, anyone in any
profession has the potential to end up being a licentious usurer.
...
-----------------------
This thread has been almost laughable, with damning conclusions,
Judgements, voiced with conviction, formed on the slimest of evidence. What
was it all about, after all? It started with a post that appears to be a
compilation of private, intimate correspondence - explicit, with rough,
sexual language and references to sexual acts that some people apparently
found unsavory.
And then there was the thread about the loan. Was this guy a con man,
weaseling a lover out of her money after weaseling his way into her heart?
People's minds were shocked at the implications. What if this were true?
What if???
Minds that are upset seek resolution. It FEELS like something's wrong
here. There MUST be something wrong here. What could it be? Well, let's look
and see. Hmmm. There's nothing really concrete here. I guess, if we're going
to resolve our upset feelings, we're going to have to read between the
lines, speculate on motives and meanings behind the fragments of facts. And
lo, yes, it's possible to conclude that he is a predator, without
conscience.
And then the witch hunt continued, and now Argentinian Tango
instructors are categorically condemned as suspect.
But... The Real Truth is that we have no way to know the truth. All
those conclusions are based on speculation - guesses. And regardless how
enamored we might be at the powers of our intellect to reason and deduce,
still the fact is that we have no real evidence of any of these conclusions.
So here's where I became embarrassed that I didn't step in and try to
calm the discussion sooner. We find we have insulted Patricio Touceda. My
personal apologies to you, Patricio, for not at least trying to quell the
madness sooner. All who have met you feel your honesty and integrity and
know you are the farthest human from the sleazy stereotype being suggested.
So I echo Clayton. "Come on, people."
J in Portland
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 14:52:38 -0700
From: "Lucy E. Lynch" <llynch@DARKWING.UOREGON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shady reputation
All -
The message from "Mary Niclos" containing a reference to dancers
with shady reputations originated from the same ip address as the
"el pibe" postings: 66-108-176-254.nyc.rr.com (66.108.176.254)
Looks like a Road Runner dial-up account in the New York City area.
I will forward all traffic from that address to the abuse folks
at road runner in hopes of putting an end to this sad chapter.
Lucy E. Lynch Academic User Services
Computing Center University of Oregon
llynch@darkwing.uoregon.edu (541) 346-1774/Cell: 912-7998
On Fri, 9 May 2003, Jay Rabe wrote:
> Thank you Clayton, for a voice of reason. As you wrote,
> ...
> Come on people. Regardless of nationality and gender, anyone in any
> profession has the potential to end up being a licentious usurer.
> ...
> -----------------------
>
> This thread has been almost laughable, with damning conclusions,
> Judgements, voiced with conviction, formed on the slimest of evidence. What
> was it all about, after all? It started with a post that appears to be a
> compilation of private, intimate correspondence - explicit, with rough,
> sexual language and references to sexual acts that some people apparently
> found unsavory.
> And then there was the thread about the loan. Was this guy a con man,
> weaseling a lover out of her money after weaseling his way into her heart?
> People's minds were shocked at the implications. What if this were true?
> What if???
> Minds that are upset seek resolution. It FEELS like something's wrong
> here. There MUST be something wrong here. What could it be? Well, let's look
> and see. Hmmm. There's nothing really concrete here. I guess, if we're going
> to resolve our upset feelings, we're going to have to read between the
> lines, speculate on motives and meanings behind the fragments of facts. And
> lo, yes, it's possible to conclude that he is a predator, without
> conscience.
> And then the witch hunt continued, and now Argentinian Tango
> instructors are categorically condemned as suspect.
>
> But... The Real Truth is that we have no way to know the truth. All
> those conclusions are based on speculation - guesses. And regardless how
> enamored we might be at the powers of our intellect to reason and deduce,
> still the fact is that we have no real evidence of any of these conclusions.
>
> So here's where I became embarrassed that I didn't step in and try to
> calm the discussion sooner. We find we have insulted Patricio Touceda. My
> personal apologies to you, Patricio, for not at least trying to quell the
> madness sooner. All who have met you feel your honesty and integrity and
> know you are the farthest human from the sleazy stereotype being suggested.
>
> So I echo Clayton. "Come on, people."
>
> J in Portland
>
>
>
Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 18:14:49 -0400
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Shady reputation
Let's see what progress we have made.
We were interested in knowing the names of tango instructors with "shady
reputation" and suggestions on how to protect us from them.
Names we have heard so far : none.
1- Clayton says a few things such as " Licentious usurer" but he qualifies
that this is not an Argentinean quality but rather a characteristic of some
members of our human species.
2- "philanderer" according to the dictionary philander is to make love
sentimentally to a lady; to flirt.
Flirt in turn means - to move with short, quick movements, to make
coquettish motions.
For protection he suggests: Common sense (which as you know it is the least
common of the senses).
He says "the women get blinded by
the tango instructor aura", then he adds "I guess the seductive powers of
the tango draw some of the masters dark side".
Then Jay Rabe reviews the evidence and reaches the conclusion that it was
all pure speculation, projection of our fears and emotions, that even when
there was nothing really important about the whole story, people read in
between lines, added their own conclusions, were preoccupied and wanted
protection, they finally extended those conclusion to Argentinean Tango
Instructors in general and by doing so offended unjustly Patricio.
In summary we have no names. As to Usurers, prices could be high but they
are established by the "free market".
If I charge 60 dollars for a private lesson and have all my time taken, I
try 80, 100, 150, still all my time is taken then I keep going up till I see
some empty slots.--- "Free Market" the bases of our economical system.
The usual situation with respect to visiting instructors is that the
organizer collects the fees and then pays the instructors.
There is here very little room for unethical behavior.
As to the flirting part, making love sentimentally to a lady...here I could
accept some blame, it is an Argentinean defect, they make love
sentimentally. I agree they should change with the times.
What a relief!!!...for a moment I thought I was going to have to wear a
bullet proof vest to go dancing.
Finally for protection I would suggest:
Use of signs in front of the milongas such as " Learn tango at your own
risk" "No guard on duty". "Bring your own condoms"
"Be aware of sentimental lovemaking". :)) There is a law that protects
women from male figures in position of authority such as medical doctors,
psychologists, clergy members. We should ask that congress extends such
protection from Tango Instructors.
Uhm...should tango instructors be afforded protection from women students as
well? What about the poor male student falling under the spell of an
Argentinean tango teacher? Any suggestions?
Good tangos to you all, un abrazo. :))
Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 07:28:43 -0500
From: Clayton Beach <akumushi@ONEBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: Shady reputation
Sergio writes:
>>2- "philanderer" according to the dictionary philander is to make love sentimentally to a lady; to flirt.
Flirt in turn means - to move with short, quick movements, to make
coquettish motions.<<
Hmmmm... Don't know which dictionary you consulted, but miriam-webster online has this to say:
>>Main Entry: phi7lan7der
>Pronunciation: f&-'lan-d&r
>Function: intransitive verb
>Inflected Form(s): -dered; phi7lan7der7ing /-d(&-)ri[ng]/
>Etymology: from obsolete philander lover, philanderer, probably from >the name Philander
>Date: 1737
>1 : to make love to someone with whom marriage is impossible (as >because of an existing marriage) or with no intention of proposing >marriage
>2 : to have many love affairs
>- phi7lan7der7er /-d&r-&r/ noun<<
As for the dark side Sergio, guess you're not a star wars fan ;)
--
Clayton Beach
akumushi@onebox.com
