4015 Shape of the molinete
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 07:33:36 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: Shape of the molinete
On Jan 4, 2006, at 9:24 PM, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
> Hi Listeros!
> ...
> I am sure that we all learned "chairwork" for the
> molinete as an exercise (forward, side, back, side
> done in a square pattern).
So with a chair as your steps pivot (F-S-B-S) they cover the angles
Zero, 180, 180, Zero.
If you analyze the actual amount of pivot in a real situation (with a
live partner), you will discover that the amount of angle on each
step is not at all like the chair exercise. I guess the exercise
helps with balance, but I'm not sure it helps with learning the
correct technique for the turn.
> However, when I actually dance the molinete, say while
> the guy is executing an enrosque, I usually use a
> 6-sided figure to complete the 360. This has worked
> for me in milonguero and salon (close & open).
The amount of angle covered in each step depends on length of stride
and radius of the turn. If you are at 1/4 arms length, then 4 medium
steps give you 360, while at arms length 6 large steps are needed to
get all the way around.
It is much, much easier to do the turn with a smaller radius..
The other difficulty with a big radius is that compromises are
necessary in either the embrace, the pivot, the spiral or the
connection.
> Recently, a nuevo instructor taught the molinete (in
> the dance) as a square shape, with the woman stepping
> away from the man on her forward step (and stepping
> back towards him on the side step). It seems to give
> the man more room for leg interactions.
Sounds like the turn has some spring or acceleration in it, rather
than being smooth and circular.
I have also watched people use a back-step that steps away, sort of a
rock-step, rather than smooth pivot.
There are many techniques for the turn.
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 03:02:29 -1200
From: Michael Ditkoff <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: Shape of the molinete
> On Jan 4, 2006, at 9:24 PM, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
Hi Listeros!
I am sure that we all learned "chairwork" for the molinete
as an exercise (forward, side, back, side done in a square
pattern).
Hello Trina:
I didn't use a chair to practice molinetes. I used a
circular plastic trash can. To ensure I maintained the same
distance from the can througout the molinete, I put a broom
in the the trash can and held it with one hand as I went
around. If the trash can wobbled or tipped, it meant I
wasn't pivoting enough and was moving away on the back step
and moving in on the forward step. Since a molinete is
circular and a chair is square, it would be difficult to
practice molinetes. I guess it would be the literal
translation of "shoving a circle into a square."
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Now eligible to retire-- but when to pull the trigger?
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 17:34:16 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Shape of the molinete
Dear Trini:
If tamgo steps move a person front to back or side to
side. then a square would be the most effecient shape
what fits around a cirle. Happy new year.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.om
--- "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
wrote:
> Hi Listeros!
>
> I am learning some Nuevo tango, which has brought up
> an interesting difference in technique from other
> styles that I have danced. And I would like to hear
> what others think about it.
>
> I am sure that we all learned "chairwork" for the
> molinete as an exercise (forward, side, back, side
> done in a square pattern).
>
> However, when I actually dance the molinete, say
> while
> the guy is executing an enrosque, I usually use a
> 6-sided figure to complete the 360. This has worked
> for me in milonguero and salon (close & open).
>
> Recently, a nuevo instructor taught the molinete (in
> the dance) as a square shape, with the woman
> stepping
> away from the man on her forward step (and stepping
> back towards him on the side step). It seems to
> give
> the man more room for leg interactions.
>
> I haven't worked out yet whether I like this
> adjustment or not since it seems that I could be
> invited to just do a forward step and not a
> molinete.
> It seems like anticipation to me.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
>
>
>
>
> PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
> Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's
> most popular social dance.
> https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about.
> Just $16.99/mo. or less.
>
>
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Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 10:24:42 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: The Shape of the Molinete/Giro.
Dear Melroy:
"As for the idea of a square molinete, stepping away
on the forward. This is interesting ...... maybe he
is trying to solve the problem of the back step (Tom
mentioned this) which often takes the follower away
from the leader when not done properly, upsetting the
symmetry. No, I don't see it!"
********
It is always a square. The further away the follower
is from the leader, the bigger the follower's steps
must be to fit the square around the larger circle.
The problem I have found with "close embrace all the
time" followers, is that their steps ARE ALWAYS
SMALL, because they were only trained to dance close
to their partner. They have too little experience
dancing in open embrace further away from their
partner. When they try to deal with a larger circle,
they use their tiny little steps to go around. This
not efficient. A square is efficient, always.
"Close embrace all the time people" need to practice
taking very beautiful long and elegant large steps to
make the square fit around a large circle. Then
things will work much better for them.
In general, as we have all heard before, the tango
embrace is like a bandondeon. One can expand it to
play wild and exciting large notes, or contract it to
play small delicate notes. One needs to be able to do
both kinds of notes to play a bandondeon. The same
principle applys to tango.
Whether music or dance, one needs to be able to cover
the wide range of possibilites and make use of the
entire dynamic range tht is available, to make things
really interesting. Contrast, surprise and
flexibility are very important. My opinion.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- Melroy <melroyr@XTRA.CO.NZ> wrote:
> Hi, now that we seem to be back on the subject of
> Tango .........
>
> My feeling / understanding / opinion, is that it is
> not necessary to think
> about how many steps you need to go around the
> leader. It is improvised so
> there could be any number of steps, once the leader
> has lead you into the
> giro it continues until you are stopped, or lead out
> of it.
>
> Once the giro has begun the leader does not have to
> keep leading it,
> although he can certainly alter its speed and
> intensity. It is a
> conversation, once begun you don't need to keep
> reminding each other what
> you're talking about.
>
> Petra has already explained some of the dynamics
> involved, and the followers
> perspective, with much less waffle than I can ever
> manage! Still I think I
> ll waffle a bit anyway ..........
>
> Each follower will have a different length of step
> according to their
> natural movement and the level to which they have
> practiced. When dancing I
> think you should just try to step as naturally as
> possible (as long as the
> leader lets you!) rather than try to fulfill an
> expectation to be or get
> somewhere.
>
> If the leader wants you to come closer to him during
> the giro, in order to
> do some tricky thing, he should lead you! As a
> leader he needs to turn
> within your circle making sure he knows where you
> are, and anything he does
> is in relation to you and does not interfere with
> your movement.
> Also if he wants to exit the giro at a certain
> point, say to continue
> walking in the line of dance, it is his
> responsibility to lead this.
>
> I have heard it explained that, during the giro, the
> follower turns the
> leader. I think this is a well known concept.
> Personally I don't go along
> with this.
> I prefer to control my own balance and turn, within
> that of my partners'.
> There is interaction but we are in control of our
> own balance and movement.
> In an ideal world!
>
> This is how I approach this particular aspect of the
> Tango. I think in any
> art form you eventually need to decide for yourself
> how you want to go about
> things.
>
> I know as a follower (I am a leader) when practicing
> it is natural to stop
> and want understand how this or that
> movement/technique works, in order to
> improve. We all need to do this.
> However, in the long run the leader must just lead
> this stuff.
> Followers' technique is hard enough in itself.
>
> As for the idea of a square molinete, stepping away
> on the forward. This is
> interesting ...... maybe he is trying to solve the
> problem of the back step
> (Tom mentioned this) which often takes the follower
> away from the leader
> when not done properly, upsetting the symmetry.
> No, I don't see it!
>
> I think it better to just practice doing the giro
> properly i.e. not stepping
> away on the back step, but making sure you are
> circling your partner.
> Then it is up to the leader to decide the shape of
> the molinete, roundish or
> squarish, whatever.
>
> That's all my waffle for now, at least I kept away
> from the coconuts.
>
> Thanks, Mel.
>
>
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 13:05:59 -0700
From: Bruno Romero <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: The Shape of the Molinete/Giro.
My 2 cents:
What I have not heard or confirmed yet is the number of steps in the
molinete required to complete the circumference within the timing of the
tango music. If the molinete represents a circumference then the question is
how many steps are required to complete the circumference within the timing
of the music. The oldest record I am aware of about tango salon methodology
proposes that the molinete ought to be completed in 8 steps or in 4 musical
measures of the tango music. This probably makes a lot sense in traditional
tango music with a marching or accentuated quality, but less for more modern
tango music, where the melodies overpower the natural rhythm of the
traditional tango music. The four musical measures are quoted in some tango
lyrics, and appeared at one time to be a standard in tango music and dance.
If the woman performs identical steps as in the chair exercise she runs the
risk of completing the circumference out of the musical timing in
traditional tango music. This may be another reason why the woman's steps
ought not to be of the same length. The woman's resolution of the back step
allows the woman use a variation of the timing (syncopation) to get back on
track within the flow and the timing of the music.
Regards,
Bruno
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 14:52:09 -0600
From: Barbara Garvey <barbara@TANGOBAR-PRODUCTIONS.COM>
Subject: Re: The Shape of the Molinete/Giro.
!Caray! I am constantly amazed by the overanalizing of technique on this
forum. Of all the basic tango movements for followers, the molinete is,
IMO, the most difficult, but most of the tricky aspects are not being
addressed in this discussion. The number of steps it takes to get around
the leader depends on the length and speed of the leader's giro -- there
are hundreds of possible variations. The four steps of the molinete,
back, side, forward, side, continue until the leader indicates that she
return. Obviously the molinete begins and ends wherever the man so
marks. The hard parts are that the follower (I am not talking about
close embrace molinetes where the woman does not turn her hips, but
simply crosses behind and in front) must be consistent in her length of
steps, must maintain the same distance from her partner, must maintain
her own balance perfectly while not disturbing his, must try to keep her
upper body parallel to his as best she can, etc. etc. and so forth. In
my experience teachers such as Graciela Gonzalez, Florencia Taccetti,
and in San Francisco Nirmala Dillman have been the clearest in
explaining and training in the molinete's intricacies.
The misnamed "syncopation" or quick-step often used on the back-side
sequence depends on the music. I won't comment on the differences
between traditional and modern tango music because I believe that if one
can't do basic tango movements to the music it isn't tango and that's a
whole other forum. Let's not go there again, folks :-)
Abrazos from Puerto Vallarta,
Barbara
www.tangobar-productions.com
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 16:08:17 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: The Shape of the Molinete/Giro.
The geometry of the turn is simple and pretty obvious, once you think
about it.
If the radius is smaller, than 3 or 4 steps easily make 360 degrees.
If the radius is larger, than you need 4 larger steps or 6 smaller ones.
So the number of steps to complete a full 360 circle may be three,
four, five or six, depending on how large the steps or how large the
radius. In Derik's terminology those might be called a triangle,
square, pentagon, hexagon (I'm not sure why he require a square).
When the music is faster, it is much easier to do 4 small steps than
4 large ones.
The timing is a completely separate matter from the number of steps.
It is common for the timing of the turn (F-S-B-S) to be S-S-Q-Q, but
the follower is better off if she assume S-S-S-S and waits for the
leader to increase the speed if he wants a S-S-Q-Q. The man can't
easily slow her down if she automatically makes the back-side a quick-
step.
Musicality (rhythm, suspensions, momentum, energy, etc) is a choice,
and may be used to express any music the leader wishes. Yes, the
follower by her skill and technique enables the leader, and at the
highest levels there is a conversation which permits the follower to
suggest musicality as well.
The turn is probably the single hardest thing for a woman to learn in
terms of technique. Specifically challenging is the pivot of the back-
side steps with or without the Q-Q. If the pivot is too small the
follower often tries to fix it by trying to step bigger, which makes
things worse.
There are three or four simple things that make learning the turn
easier.
(1) Smaller radius circle, let's say at 1/2 or even 1/4 arms length
(2) Smaller, even-length steps, let's say medium-sized
(3) Keeping in mind the idea of pivot big, step small.
(4) Permitting the "away" shoulder to separate so that the pivot is
not compromised. (Trying to hard to spiral may be harmful for the back).
Finally, we need to drop thinking about the steps. Success with the
turn is achieved when the axis of the follower moves smoothly around
the leader as he leads, with the feet landing intuitively land
appropriately under the axis
That is why I'm not too fond of the square exercise. The turn is a
dynamic relationship between two bodies and it needs to be trained
carefully to avoid bad habits. I mean, it can take a lot of time to
remove bad habits and careful training helps speed up learning.
May you always train with a partner better than you!
On Jan 7, 2006, at 1:05 PM, Bruno Romero wrote:
> My 2 cents:
>
> What I have not heard or confirmed yet is the number of steps in the
> molinete required to complete the circumference within the timing
> of the
> tango music. If the molinete represents a circumference then the
> question is
> how many steps are required to complete the circumference within
> the timing
> of the music. The oldest record I am aware of about tango salon
> methodology
> ...traditional tango music. This may be another reason why the
> woman's steps
> ought not to be of the same length. The woman's resolution of the
> back step
> allows the woman use a variation of the timing (syncopation) to get
> back on
> track within the flow and the timing of the music.
>
> Regards,
>
> Bruno
>
Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 19:51:00 -0600
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: The Shape of the Molinete/Giro.
>It is always a square. The further away the follower
>is from the leader, the bigger the follower's steps
>must be to fit the square around the larger circle.
>
>
Beg to differ. It should be the shape led. Granted that men
are all taught to make the dance square (12 o'clock, 3 o'clock,
6 o'clock, 9, o'clock), but there's always that special situation
calling for something different.
Adding or subtracting some angle in the pivot can make
challenging things much easier, especially when entering or
leaving a giro.
>The problem I have found with "close embrace all the
>time" followers, is that their steps ARE ALWAYS
>SMALL, because they were only trained to dance close
>to their partner.
>
You must have a limited experience of "close embrace all the time"
followers. Again, the side of the step they should take is the size
of step the leader asks of them, ni mas, ni meno.
When I lead correctly, I have no problems getting even moderately
experienced "close embrace all the time followers" to take long elegant
steps.
><snip>
>
>"Close embrace all the time people" need to practice
>taking very beautiful long and elegant large steps to
>make the square fit around a large circle. Then
>things will work much better for them.
>
>
As steps get progressively longer than shoulder width (16 to 22
inches), the difficulty of making clean weight transfers increases
geometrically.
It's unkind to inexperienced followers to ask them to step much
more than 18 inches at a time, and rarely necessary in social
dance anyway.
