3791 Shared axis?
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 12:56:09 -0700
From: Michael at Tango Bellingham <michaele@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
Subject: Shared axis?
Ok, there's been some back channel discussion on "shared axis" in close
embrace. BTW, anything dumb I say here is my fault and mine alone - mea
maxima culpa.
I'm going to throw this question out re: "buttons-to-buttons" close
embrace: does "shared axis" mean that if either partner were to
unexpectedly move away, the other would "fall down go boom"? Maybe I'm
misinterpreting things (wouldn't be the first time), but if you're not
maintaining your own balance in any embrace, any perturbation internal
or external is going to put both of you in trouble.
What am I missing here?
Michael
Tango Bellingham
ww.tangobellingham.com
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 23:09:15 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@BRUSSELS.SGI.COM>
Subject: Re: Shared axis?
Michael at Tango Bellingham wrote:
> Ok, there's been some back channel discussion on "shared axis" in close
> embrace. BTW, anything dumb I say here is my fault and mine alone - mea
> maxima culpa.
>
> I'm going to throw this question out re: "buttons-to-buttons" close
> embrace: does "shared axis" mean that if either partner were to
> unexpectedly move away, the other would "fall down go boom"?
Yes. But if they're also dancing correctly, there's no way for them
to "unexpectedly" move away - indeed, the leader is in charge, and the
follower follows, and it's the "moving away" or "moving toward"
that is the leading signal.
Of course, it only takes one person to lead or follow *in*correctly,
and that "fall down go boom" becomes much more than a hypothetical
event: it's enough for the person going back to stop pressing toward
on the other person (in an instinct to recover an
axis over one's own feet) for that to happen , and my personal
experience is that that's one of the tougher things to avoid while
dancing a real closed embrace, certainly for the person going back
and turning (and especially for the leader, not that accustomed to
going back and engrossed in lots of other things).
> Maybe I'm
> misinterpreting things (wouldn't be the first time), but if you're not
> maintaining your own balance in any embrace, any perturbation internal
> or external is going to put both of you in trouble.
Well, a *real* closed embrace does mean that you have to trust your
partner, yes.
If you're dancing close and you each have your own axis, well, then
I presonally call that an open embrace - there's a continuum of
closeness in that embrace, so where exactly would you draw the line?
--
Alexis Cousein Solutions Architect
Silicon Graphics/SGI
--
If I can see further, it is by standing on reference manuals.
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 22:43:12 -0400
From: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: Shared axis?
From one Michael to another:
I dance "buttons-to-buttons" close embrace. My partner and I are responsible for our own axis and balance. If one of us unexpectedly =
moved away, the other should be standing. Sharing is not the same thing as being depending. Our chests are touching but we not leaning on each =
other, where leaning is defined as being supported by the other person. We are responsible for our own balance.
The problem might be in the definition of axis. My definition is a plumb line going straight down my body to one foot. When we are =
button-to-buttons, we are not sharing the same axis because our weight is NOT in the same place. The easiest way I can explain shared axis is =
with a colgado. The couple is turning ("spinning") simultaneously like a top. They have to share the same axis. The man's right foot is in =
between the woman's feet with their weight on their right foot. In this case the axis is shared because the feet are together.
Hope this helps.
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael at Tango Bellingham
Subject: [TANGO-L] Shared axis?
I'm going to throw this question out re: "buttons-to-buttons" close embrace: does "shared axis" mean that if either partner were to =
unexpectedly move away, the other would "fall down go boom"?
Michael
Tango Bellingham
ww.tangobellingham.com
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 01:05:06 -0500
From: Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Shared axis?
Hello Michaels, another Michael chiming in!
Cool subject, and one near and dear to me. I dance close-embrace
milonguero, and in my definition, and in my opinion, my partner and I
always share an axis. There ARE times (not many) when we would both be
on our own BALANCE if one pulled away, but I believe we still share a
single axis.
When we stand before each other, before embracing, there are two axes,
but as soon as we assume the embrace, we become one body with four legs,
and our axis runs pretty much from the point where our chests meet
straight down to the floor between us. Most close-embrace teachers tell
you to keep all your weight forward on the balls of your feet. (some
lately, have been seeing the light, and saying to do this, but then even
go a little further, relaxing into your partner!). Staying forward on
the balls of your feet , with no other support, would get mighty
uncomfortable after about two tandas, so my partner and I support each
other, sometimes very slightly, sometimes a lot more.
Michael (TangoBellingham) writes <<<<does "shared axis" mean that if
either partner were to unexpectedly move away, the other would "fall
down go boom"? Maybe I'm misinterpreting things (wouldn't be the first
time), but if you're not maintaining your own balance in any embrace,
any perturbation internal or external is going to put both of you in
trouble.>>>>>>
Not always "fall down go boom"; in the initial embrace, or during
pauses, etc, each of us COULD be on our own BALANCE (forward on balls of
feet), but the AXIS is still shared, for strength, stability, and
support. Example; push on my back when I'm on my own AXIS, and it's easy
to make me lose my balance. Put my follower in front of me, let us share
an axis, then try to push me over. You couldn't! And if we are both
trying to maintain our own balance the whole time, to me, there is no
real connection.
Michael Ditkoff writes <<<<<<We are responsible for our own balance. The
problem might be in the definition of axis. My definition is a plumb
line going straight down my body to one foot. When we are
button-to-buttons, we are not sharing the same axis because our weight
is NOT in the same place. The easiest way I can explain shared axis is
with a colgado. The couple is turning ("spinning") simultaneously like a
top. They have to share the same axis. The man's right foot is in
between the woman's feet with their weight on their right foot. In this
case the axis is shared because the feet are together.>>>>>>
The "weight" of the partners does not have to be in the same place to
constitute a single axis, as in Michael's example using colgadas. What
about a big volcada? Neither partner is on their own balance, meaning
each would fall down should the other be removed, their weight is at
points far removed, so where is the axis? It is between them, shared.
Same thing in most calesitas. Where is the axis of a tripod? Directly
underneath the camera, even though there is no weight there.
Watch some of these teachers who preach about "staying on your own
axis". When they dance they do anything but that. They share an axis,
relying on each other for support, stability, and strength.
I, for one, definitely do not want my partner to feel responsible for
her own axis or balance. I am the one responsible for making sure that
the line of her body is in tune with mine, and our shared axis, at the
same time. I want her to feel that she's perfectly safe in my arms, and
that I own her balance, and her axis, and that she doesn't have to worry
about either. The moment two dancers "fight" to stay on their own
balance, that special connection is lost. The communion of two spirits
is no longer possible. The communication is by the frame, no longer the
intimate dialog of hearts, and souls. I don't want my partner to just be
there, in front of me; I want her to melt into me, and I into her. I
want us to be one, not two.
Just my opinion, and I think, that of a few followers,
Regards to all, and happy tangos, no matter how many axes!
Michael from Houston
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 10:28:29 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@BRUSSELS.SGI.COM>
Subject: Re: Shared axis?
Michael Figart II wrote:
> The moment two dancers "fight" to stay on their own
> balance, that special connection is lost. The communion of two spirits
> is no longer possible.
Two people can each be responsible for their own balance without
having a fight, and it is possible to find that special connection
even in an open embrace.
The mechanics are different and so is the connection (i.e. the
means of communication), but the feeling doesn't have to be
less intense.
The moment people fight, they don't have a good connection, no
matter what the embrace. If they don't fight, but constantly
"listen" to each other, are aware of where their partner is and
communicate clearly, then the connection will be good
no matter what embrace they'll have picked.
The problem without an open embrace and two people on their own axis
is that they can stop communicating with the other person and even
dance without anything like a real connection and not know it, unless
they *know* what a good connection feels like; a closed embrace
pretty much *mandates* good communication, and makes problems with
the connection more readily apparent.
--
Alexis Cousein Solutions Architect
Silicon Graphics/SGI
--
If I can see further, it is by standing on reference manuals.
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 11:21:40 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Shared axis?
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] Shared axis?
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 11:21:40 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Shared axis?
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] Shared axis?
What is Axis. It is Axis of Rotation. Two bodies unified in a tight embrace
can not have 2 separate axises of rotation! ONLY ONE. And it is better to
keep it this way. And I dare to say that the same is a general rule for the
open embrace.
What they actually mean with "Keep your own axis" - keeping your own
Balance. And it should mean not to relation to the floor, but to relation to
the PARTNER!
What is Balance. Balance is not falling and keeping the control in any
situation. Keeping the balance does not mean holding strictly vertical
position. A concrete cube has a perfect balance, but is it the balance we
are talking about? We are talking balance when we see a long stick on a
finger of a juggler. Aha, you say, it means vertical! Yes, but let him start
running around the room, jumping left and right, shaking the hand..
Keeping balance means mostly not falling on the partner, depending on
yourself for keeping it. A partner should not keep you in balance. (This is
mostly an issue for beginners.) But it means only that both partners are
responsible for keeping the balance of a couple as a whole. In an extreme
Apilado position, both stand on one leg leaning to each other. And they both
preserve The Balance. Their Own Balance in relation to the Partner. And to
preserve Their Own Balance, they must preserve Their Common Balance, there
is no other way. And this interdependence is a key to a great dance.
Shortly, it is not thinking about your own position and actions preserves
your own balance, but thinking about the partner and preserving the common
balance. It is the way.
When you talk about the Balance, it means that the situation is Imbalanced.
Oho! Risky, making movements on the Edge of the Balance makes the dance
great and even showy. Hey, let us do something unbalancing and see if we are
able to keep the balance! It is a game!
Keeping balance does not mean not relying on the partners energy. A man can
and should give energy during ochos, molinetes, and so on, if she accepts
it. And she should. And she can give energy back too, like in molinetes.
Push from your partner, ladies, hold on him, use him! ( For advanced dancing
only, this is not a beginner's issue. Well, well, there are jewels in the
world.. )
Igor Polk
PS
You didn't expect it from me, do you? :)
PS2. About opening during close embrace. Yes, it is valid, and it nice, but
let us not to replace it with Inability to Keep the Common Axis! Have you
got what I mean?
PS3
This is so true!!!:
"The problem with an open embrace and two people on their own axis
is that they can stop communicating with the other person and even
dance without anything like a real connection and not knowing it, unless
they *know* what a good connection feels like; a closed embrace
pretty much *mandates* good communication, and makes problems with
the connection more readily apparent." -- Alexis Cousein
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 22:07:10 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@BRUSSELS.SGI.COM>
Subject: Re: Shared axis?
Igor Polk wrote:
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: [TANGO-L] Shared axis?
>
> What is Axis. It is Axis of Rotation.
Not in this conversation we were all having, no - if you
define it your way, it can't serve to classify styles of
embrace.
Of course, your "axis" is also important, but discussions
about *that* axis are an entirely different kettle of fish
(though it's also an interesting discussion).
--
Alexis Cousein Solutions Architect
Silicon Graphics/SGI
--
If I can see further, it is by standing on reference manuals.
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:46:08 EDT
From: Bill King <Euroking@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Shared axis?
Many times when we think of or explain balance we are thinking static
balance. I will make my first assumption and that is when we are stationary we are
each in balance. When we move our bodies go from balance to out of balance and
back to balance. Each of us has an axis we move around and center on to
regain balance. This is a process of dynamic balance and this is what we do when we
dance. We can be smooth or rough in our appearance. If we are rough, we are
making large movements to control our dynamic balance. If smooth we are
making more but much smaller movements to regain a point of balance.
Now take a lead and a follow bring them together and ask them to dance. When
we do we are asking two individuals to act as one, we ask them to share a
common axis, not their individual axis but rather a shared one. They must learn
to cooperate to dance. Early on movements are awkward and jumpy. This causes
the new follow, whose own movements are equally uncertain to feel uncomfortable
and feel she is not doing it right and that it is a difficult dance. At this
point we can rationalize, or at least I do, is why many teach open salon style
to beginners. Doing so lets them develop the necessary balances skills as
well as learning to read the other's skills without being absolutely bound by the
others skill base. It also allows each to learn as to pick up the move, to
maintain the right pressure; each has to learn to read the other. Practice,
lessons and floor time help mellow this awkwardness out.
As a couple move closer, their shared axis becomes smaller or closer, I am
not sure if I am clear, so apologies, the effect of this moving closer is a
connection that is shared over a larger combined surface area and requires the
lead to be more sensitive to the energy they put into the lead as well as
requiring the follow to read the lead and move at a like speed and energy or the lose
the feeling of connection. If the lead is uneven, the follow may move
further away (and this is relative) than intended and have to come back to make the
connection. Ideally the follow will read the lead earlier and adapt to the
same speed and movement as lead. This feeling is fantastic. But it is also the
mark of the good dancers.
Going further out on a limb, if one were to change to an open embrace at this
level you must maintain the same connection dynamics which provide a gliding
lightness with more dynamic effects. Tango Nuevo opens up the shared axis but
still requires the subtle amount of mutual balance and connection it is just
that the relationship is more dynamic.
I guess what I am saying is that ideally what makes Tango great, and the goal
of every dancing Tango to develop that dynamic sixth sense of movement,
reaction and adaptation, regardless of their preferred style. The ability to make
a constant and fluid adjustment to your environment match with a partner that
can do the same is nirvana. Unfortunately or fortunately depending on your
point of view this is the long term learning process of learning to dance and
feel Tango.
Just some thoughts,
Bill in Seattle
