5644  side sacada

Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 17:44:30 -0400
From: "Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau@law.nyc.gov>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] side sacada
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>, <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
<DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFD18@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>

Damian wrote: So, you don't consider a side sacada a sacada??

It is a sacada, but not a separate sacada for purposes of structural
classification; It is a subset of an open front sacada, merely done
with the sacador's hips oriented a little differently. Any other
classification would require counting the infinite number of possible
degrees of entry between 0 and 360 as separate sacadas.

Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 16:12:07 -0600
From: Bill Serve <billserve@gmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] side sacada
<400007590905131512q20fb6ed5t67e0b22cff748d71@mail.gmail.com>

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a side sacada done with the foot
opposite the direction of the sacada, whereas front or back sacadas
are done with the foot in the direction of the sacada?
(I only consider circular movement when talking about sacadas because
linear sacadas just don't work well. this puts me in the group that
thinks there are 36 traditional sacadas.)

--
Bill


https://tangofix.blogspot.com

Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 09:45:27 +1000
From: Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] side sacada
To: Bill Serve <billserve@gmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<cb8208d0905131645s18de2671o53a71bbbc618e685@mail.gmail.com>

I can't imagine any sacada being with and or from the direction the
sacada comes from, it that happened, the follower would be taking the
foot/leg in half.

If there are 3 possible steps and there are only 3. Forward, backward
and sidewards, then there are only 3 'directions' that a sacada can
come from... If this is true, then a side sacada is just as valid as
a side step. However, using your thought process Martin, do we then
remove all side steps and classify them as fwd or bkwd steps???

As for the linear sacada comment, like any movement, executed badly,
of course it will be hard or difficult. Teaching sacada's, I often
teach linear going forwards first as it's incredibly easy to lead and
of course, keeps the line of dance. I use both cross and parallel
systems to show differing outcomes and how it can affect the line of
dance...

Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 17:55:55 -0600
From: Bill Serve <billserve@gmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Fwd: side sacada
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<400007590905131655jeb52809x758fc3ec6191d189@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: May 13, 2009 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] side sacada
To: "Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau@law.nyc.gov>


What I mean by direction of the sacada is the direction of the giro,
to the leaders left or to the leaders right, my point is that for a
front sacada to either the front side or back step of the follower the
leader sacadas with the same foot as the direction of the turn, and
for a side sacada he would sacada with the foot that is not in the
direction of the turn.

I believe that the leader must go in the direction of the follower to
replace her foot position with you foot (isn't that what Sacada
means?). If two people dancing together with each other in a circular
motion go in different directions they will end up going away from
each other (different circles) or will bang into each other (same
circle different directions), so they must both go in the same
direction or disconnect from each other.


On 5/13/09, Nussbaum, Martin <mnussbau@law.nyc.gov> wrote:
> You lost me. I have no idea what you mean by the direction of the
> sacada. I have never heard that reference term used before. The
> direction of the follower is not necessarily the same as the leader,
> even if she is doing a giro around the leader. I can lead a woman to go
> in one direction while I go in another.
> A front sacada, for example, to a womans right front cross step,
> (clockwise giro) can be done with either foot of the leader sacador.
> Same for a back sac. So I see no need to have a separate species
> called "side sacada".
> You have open and cross sacadas by the leader, front and back. We only
> have two legs. Our postion is either open to the follower or its
> crossed. I don't care if my entry is at 9 oclcok on the dial or 3 pm on
> the clock dia, I care how my torso is oriented toward the folloer, open
> or crossed. Those are the only options, unless you count "jumping "with
> both feet at once sacadas. So I get 48 sacadas without side sacadas.
> (72 if you insist side sacadas are a separate species. )
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Serve [mailto:billserve@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 5:59 PM
> To: Nussbaum, Martin
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] side sacada
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a side sacada done with the foot
> opposite the direction of the sacada, whereas front or back sacadas are
> done with the foot in the direction of the sacada?
> (I only consider circular movement when talking about sacadas because
> linear sacadas just don't work well. this puts me in the group that
> thinks there are 36 traditional sacadas.)
>
>
>
> On 5/13/09, Nussbaum, Martin <mnussbau@law.nyc.gov> wrote:
> > Damian wrote: So, you don't consider a side sacada a sacada??
> >
> > It is a sacada, but not a separate sacada for purposes of structural
>
> > classification; It is a subset of an open front sacada, merely done
> > with the sacador's hips oriented a little differently. Any other
> > classification would require counting the infinite number of possible
>
> > degrees of entry between 0 and 360 as separate sacadas.
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Bill
>
> https://www.youtube.com/user/milonguerobill
>
> https://tangofix.blogspot.com
>



--

Bill

https://www.youtube.com/user/milonguerobill

https://tangofix.blogspot.com


--
Bill

https://www.youtube.com/user/milonguerobill

https://tangofix.blogspot.com

Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 22:34:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] side sacada
To: tango-l@mit.edu

> From: Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
>
> If there are 3 possible steps and there are only 3.? Forward, backward
> and sidewards, then there are only 3 'directions' that a sacada can
> come from...? If this is true, then a side sacada is just as valid as
> a side step.? >

While I agree with the theory and analysis, I'm sometimes a little
confused about what is actually happening, so can we be specific
for a moment?

The couple are in crossed feet, lady walking back, man forward
on her right side.

The lady takes a RF backward step [also known as?an 'open?step']
The man steps forward with his RF and Sacadas the inside of her
left leg with the outside of his right leg. This is a very common Sacada
and very easy to lead.

The man's leg is moving [mostly] forward but the Sacada is made with
the outside of the leg. So is this a Forward Sacada or a Side Sacada?

Another thing - everyone seems to agree on the mantra ...?"there are
3 possible steps and there are only 3.? Forward, backward and sideward,"

But in the man's step described above, his foot first moves forward, but
then veers to the right to make the Sacada. So it appears to be a curved,
diagonal step. Is this a 4th possibility?

Jack

Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 09:20:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Fwd: side sacada



--- On Wed, 5/13/09, Bill Serve <billserve@gmail.com> wrote:

> What I mean by direction of the sacada is the direction of
> the giro, to the leaders left or to the leaders right,? my
> point is that for a front sacada to either the front side or back step of the follower the leader sacadas with the same foot? as the direction
> of the turn, and for a side sacada he would sacada with the foot that is
> not in the direction of the turn.
>
> I believe that the leader must go in the direction of the
> follower to replace her foot position with you foot (isn't that what
> Sacada means?). If two people dancing together with each other in
> a circular motion go in different directions they will end up going
> away from each other (different circles) or will bang into each
> other (same circle different directions), so they must both go in the
> same direction or disconnect from each other.

Suppose the woman is doing a forward ocho to the man's right (classic turn to the right) and man wants to sacada her. Whether he does it with his right foot or his left foot, it's still considered a forward sacada if he takes a forward step. It's a side sacada if he pivots and does his sacada as a side step. Whether his sacada is a forward or side step has nothing to do with the direction of the turn or which foot he steps with. It only has to do with how he is actually stepping.

If he does a forward sacada, the RESULT changes depending on whether he used his left foot or right foot. But that's okay, and in fact, it's one of the choices a leader makes in deciding to sacada with what foot. Some people just do it just "because they can", but it a more sophisticated way of dancing is to choose something for a particular effect.

But, really, I don't understand why people are trying to complicate something that is really pretty straightforward. Both steps 3 and 4 of the 8CB are considered forward steps, right? Do it while a woman is stepping across in front of you and you've got forward sacadas.

Trini de Pittsburgh