2193 Simple tango?
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2004 15:52:03 -0700
From: Rick McGarrey <rickmcg@FLASH.NET>
Subject: Simple tango?
I enjoyed Jonathan's thoughtful post ("leading - the right stuff"), especially
his thoughts about listening and following the music. But there was something
in Jonathan's post that I would like to discuss. He says that as a beginner he
"heard about close embrace tango and that it had a smaller selection of steps",
and that people told him that close embrace was "simpler". I have heard the
same thing myself, and it has been repeated without challenge on this list so
often that it seems to have taken root as fact.
In reality, I believe the opposite is true. The great majority of the old
social dancers of Buenos Aires dance close embrace, and anyone who looks
closely at them will see a bewildering array of steps. Not only are there a
greater quantity and variety of "steps" in close embrace, the steps themselves
are often more complex and difficult to master than those I have been taught in
"open" workshops in the U.S. By the way, I'm talking here only about
complexity of step patterns- which basically means where you step. When you
add in musical interpretation (that is the different ways of stepping on and
between the beats of the music), close embrace tango becomes even more complex
than open embrace. (I should note here that it is this use of the cadences and
melody that puts the real art in tango, and it's what is meant when the
milongueros say that tango is not really about "steps").
Why the seemingly common perception in the U.S. (and on this list) that open
embrace is more complex? I think there are several reasons. First, most
people outside of Argentina don't really have much familiarity with the great
local dancers in BsAs. Second, the big leg movements and dramatic poses of
open embrace tango catch attention, and may lead to the illusion that there is
"more to it" than to close embrace. And finally it takes a lot of time to find
and identify the steps of the old milongueros. It's very hard to see
complicated steps that are layered beneath complex uses of the cadence,
especially when they are often danced on crowded floors that are off the beaten
track for foreign travelers.
Our tango inspiration in the U.S. began twenty or so years ago with the more
outwardly expressive tango of stage and film performances, and this appetite
for performance tango has been catered to by twenty years of traveling
Argentine tango performers. Naturally they are greatly admired outside of
Argentina, but many of them have little experience in the BsAs milongas, and
often they are not even known there. So it's not surprising that while they
are able to inspire students with their open embrace tango, many of them only
dance a bit of simple close embrace. So anything but the most simple close
embrace social tango of BsAs is a relatively recent export. And even the much
more detailed version that Susana Miller teaches outside of Argentina is by
necessity a very abridged example of what goes on in the BsAs milongas. Along
with some of Daniel Trenner's videos, this was probably the first exposure for
most of us in the U.S. Both of them did great jobs, but people need to realize
that the things they show are only the tip of a very large and complex iceberg,
and very little of that iceberg has been identified and transformed into things
that can be taught in classes. So don't be fooled by the fact that we have
seen only a small sampling of the real thing. A lack of exposure should not
lead anyone to conclude that close embrace tango has less steps than the open
embrace tango they have learned in classes.
How did social tango get where it is today? Here is a brief history of the
last fifty years, as told to me by several of the old milongueros who learned
in the neighborhoods of BsAs from friends and family, rather than in classes.
In the 1950's when they began to learn, there were two types of tango. There
was a simple tango called "tango liso" or "tango sin cortes" (tango without
cuts). This was walked to the music in close embrace. The second was a more
advanced tango called "tango con cortes". "Corte" meant you "cut" the walking,
opened the embrace, performed more complex steps or patterns, and then closed
the embrace and resumed walking. The steps that were done during these
"cortes" were probably learned from the previous generation (these were the
dancers who had added complexity to the simpler tango of the turn of the
century). These steps were passed on to the this new generation of 1950's
dancers by older family members, and maybe also picked up from some earlier
movies and films. Before asking a new woman to dance in the 50's, the man
would ask if she danced either "tango con cortes" or "tango liso". If she was
advanced, she could follow the steps, and danced with cortes. And the more
advanced you got, the more often you opened the embrace to dance the steps.
If the woman was less experienced, they danced "tango liso" in close embrace
without the cortes. I asked them if tango was taught in classes at this time,
and was told that they thought there were some dance schools downtown that
taught all types of dancing, and probably tango as well. Interestingly, a few
weeks after I was told this, I happened to see an old movie on TV in BsAs, and
the camera showed a metal plaque outside of a building. It said "Escuela de
Baile" (Dance school). And below, it said that both "Tango sin Cortes" and
"Tango con Cortes" was taught inside.
While there is great nostalgia, respect and admiration for the dancers of
earlier generations, it is pretty much agreed that the dancers in the milongas
today are the best ever. This is because there are now many experienced
dancers from the '50s who have gradually become able to dance the steps of the
cortes without opening the embrace. And this seems to be an ongoing process.
As people get better and better, they are able to do more things with less room
in the embrace, and also with less room on the dance floor itself. If you look
at some of the documentary films that show BsAs social dancing 25 years ago,
you might conclude that open embrace is common, but today you will actually see
many of the same people who danced open embrace in the old films now dancing
close embrace in the neighborhood clubs, and open embrace tango is now rare.
Social tango has evolved and improved, just as the old milongueros told me.
Experienced dancers now do an amazing variety of things in close embrace today
that they couldn't before, but this more advanced way of dancing has taken
almost 50 years to evolve.
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 14:08:40 -0600
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: Simple tango?
Rick, I think you're right about close embrace being more complex. Don't
many people learn a step in open first, then as they get better at it move
it to close? That's what I find in the better leaders, anyway.
Lois
www.mndance.com
612.822.8436
> -----Original Message-----
people told him that close
> embrace was "simpler". I have heard the same thing myself,
> and it has been repeated without challenge on this list so
> often that it seems to have taken root as fact.
>
> In reality, I believe the opposite is true. The great
> majority of the old social dancers of Buenos Aires dance
> close embrace, and anyone who looks closely at them will see
> a bewildering array of steps. Not only are there a greater
> quantity and variety of "steps" in close embrace, the steps
> themselves are often more complex and difficult to master
> than those I have been taught in
> "open" workshops in the U.S.
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 21:02:54 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Simple tango?
Lois wrote:
"Don't many people learn a step in open first, then as they get better at it
move it to close?"
This statement is not true according to my personal experience. There is
significant overlap in the steps between open and close embrace steps,
therefore it is possible to take open embrace class and do steps in close
embrace. _Some_ of the more interesting steps, which I have learned in open
embrace class, I have learned by doing them in close embrace from the very
start simply because the lead in close embrace is natural and intuitive to
me. I grok it. I would struggle to try to learn them as an open embrace
steps first.
Of course other, even more exciting steps (_small_ balance related play,
lateral shuffle step) are either impossible or would be too strenuous to do
in open embrace. So you have to either take close embrace class or to invent
them.
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com
>From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
>Reply-To: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Simple tango?
>Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 14:08:40 -0600
>
>Rick, I think you're right about close embrace being more complex. Don't
>many people learn a step in open first, then as they get better at it move
>it to close? That's what I find in the better leaders, anyway.
>
>Lois
>www.mndance.com
>612.822.8436
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>people told him that close
> > embrace was "simpler". I have heard the same thing myself,
> > and it has been repeated without challenge on this list so
> > often that it seems to have taken root as fact.
> >
> > In reality, I believe the opposite is true. The great
> > majority of the old social dancers of Buenos Aires dance
> > close embrace, and anyone who looks closely at them will see
> > a bewildering array of steps. Not only are there a greater
> > quantity and variety of "steps" in close embrace, the steps
> > themselves are often more complex and difficult to master
> > than those I have been taught in
> > "open" workshops in the U.S.
Find high-speed net deals comparison-shop your local providers here.
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 12:59:42 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Simple tango?
Lois Donnay writes:
> Rick, I think you're right about close embrace being more complex. Don't
> many people learn a step in open first, then as they get better at it move
> it to close? That's what I find in the better leaders, anyway.
Cacho Dante claims that, but at least in the
United States I think a much fairer explanation
would be that because of the history of tango here,
a lot of people just happened to get exposed to a more
open style first, then went to Buenos Aires (or met
people who went) and discovered close and learned
that later.
As far as one style being "more difficult" than
the other, I would be very careful before trying to
open a can of worms like that. It's like arguing
over whether it's more difficult to be an excellent
leader or an excellent follower (not beginning --
I think most everyone would agree it's easier to be
a beginning follower than a beginning leader).
They're just different skills, that's all.
If I really wanted to press the issue, however,
I'd ask the opinion of someone who was demonstrably
excellent at both styles, say, a Gustavo Naveira,
for example.
Huck
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 12:45:13 -0800
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Simple tango?
> Lois wrote:
> "Don't many people learn a step in open first, then
> as they get better at it
> move it to close?"
--- Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> This statement is not true according to my personal
> experience. There is significant overlap in the
steps between open and close embrace steps, therefore
it is possible to take open embrace class and do steps
in close embrace. Some_ of the more interesting steps,
which I have learned in open embrace class, I have
learned by doing them in close embrace from the very
start simply because the lead in close embrace is
natural and intuitive to me. I grok it. I would
struggle to try to learn them as an open embrace steps
first.
I think what Lois meant was that one usually tries a
step out first in the practice frame, which is
essentially an open frame. If the practice frame
works, then they may try to learn it in the close
frame. Of course, if they prefer an open embrace,
they switch to the appropriate dance frame.
In any event, I have always found it interesting to
try the same step in different embraces when I am
learning them to fine tune those lead/follow skills.
=====
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 21:23:07 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Simple tango?
Trini or Sean wrote:
>I think what Lois meant was that one usually tries a
>step out first in the practice frame, which is
>essentially an open frame. If the practice frame
>works, then they may try to learn it in the close
>frame.
I have re-read my email and realized to my horror I wasn't lucid enough.
My point is that I do not use open, practice frame to figure out new steps,
because the lead is obvious to me in close embrace and so I am comfortable
with doing it in close embrace right away. I would be much less comfortable
trying to figure it out in open embrace or in open embrace "practice" frame
because the dynamic of the lead and follow is quite different in open
embrace compare to close and not as intuitive to me. All of the above
applies only to those steps which can be done in both open and close
embrace.
Finally I understand that I might be an exception from the rule - she did
write _many_, not all people.
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com
>From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
>Reply-To: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Simple tango?
>Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 12:45:13 -0800
>
> > Lois wrote:
> > "Don't many people learn a step in open first, then
> > as they get better at it
> > move it to close?"
>
>--- Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> > This statement is not true according to my personal
> > experience. There is significant overlap in the
>steps between open and close embrace steps, therefore
>it is possible to take open embrace class and do steps
>in close embrace. Some_ of the more interesting steps,
>which I have learned in open embrace class, I have
>learned by doing them in close embrace from the very
>start simply because the lead in close embrace is
>natural and intuitive to me. I grok it. I would
>struggle to try to learn them as an open embrace steps
>first.
>
>
>
>I think what Lois meant was that one usually tries a
>step out first in the practice frame, which is
>essentially an open frame. If the practice frame
>works, then they may try to learn it in the close
>frame. Of course, if they prefer an open embrace,
>they switch to the appropriate dance frame.
>
>In any event, I have always found it interesting to
>try the same step in different embraces when I am
>learning them to fine tune those lead/follow skills.
>
>
>
>=====
>PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
>Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social
>dance.
>https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
>
>
What are the 5 hot job markets for 2004? Click here to find out.
https://msn.careerbuilder.com/Custom/MSN/CareerAdvice/WPI_WhereWillWeFindJobsIn2004.htm?siteidĖMSN3006&sc_extcmp=JS_wi08_dec03_hotmail1
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 10:08:12 -0700
From: Rick McGarrey <rickmcg@FLASH.NET>
Subject: Simple tango?
One thing about tango L is that posts often generate more interesting private
replies than the public responses on the list.
Bruno wrote to ask about my sources when I mentioned the "simpler tango" of the
turn of the century. His question made me realize that I really didn't have
any specific sources, other than a few summaries I had read, some old pictures,
and a few things from tango documentary movies. I realized that in a post
where I was arguing against people assuming that close embrace tango was
"simple", I had made the mistake of assuming that turn of the century tango was
simple. Absent any other evidence, "different tango around the turn of the
century", rather than "simpler tango around the turn of the century" would have
been better.
Bruno also responded with this great message (we plan to track down the films
when we get back to BsAs):
"I think they [old films] may be difficult to come by. Between 1907 - 1911
there were 32
short films (~ 4 minutes), which included other dances in addition to tango.
These films had main characters played among others people like Angel
Villoldo, Alfredo Gobbi Sr., and others from the dance and music scene of
those times.
The list of short films between 1907 - 1911 include:
Gabino El Mayoral, Buenos Aires Tenebroso, El Poncho del Olvido, Justicia
Criolla, Los Tocayos, Abajo La Carreta, Deja de jugar che, che, Soldado de
la Independencia, El Pechador, Mr. Whiskey, Ya no te acuerdas de mi, El
Compadrito, El Calotero, Bohemia Criolla, El Cochero del Tranvia, Flor de
Durazno, Ensalada Criolla, Galleguita, Pica Pica, La Beata, la Patria de los
Gauchos, Perdon Viejita, La Borrachera del Tango, Los Carreros, etc.
The first long film with plot was "Nobleza Gaucha" 1n 1915 followed by "Una
Noche de Garufa"
An interesting film in 1916 was the film "Resaca" which included dance
scenes of El Cachafaz, others are "Federacion o muerte", and "Flor de
Durazno".
The tango choreography and style of music.
At the turn of the century and following two decades, as I have read, there
were two styles of music one promoted by Canaro and the other by Firpo.
Firpo's style had most acceptance because of his melodic and rhythmic
interpretation of tangos. However, Canaro's music was preferred by
professional and seasoned dancers because it was a faster music and more
difficult to dance. The use and frequency of cortes in the dance would have
given an indication of the type of music it was danced in those places
i.e., clubs de barrio. The cortes are more easily executed in faster tango
music than in slow tango music. The tango liso you refer to in your posting
may allude that it was a much slower and rhythmic tango. These are just my
own conclusions. I have read the books by Andres M. Carretero "Tango Testigo
Social" and "El Compadrito y El Tango". Have read other books but not as
candid or direct as those I mentioned before."
