5291 Smart tango consumers
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 05:38:07 +0000
From: Heather Whitehead <heatherwhite3@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Smart tango consumers
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
I know it must be difficult to constantly try to find new ways to sell classes and workshops but when it comes to musicality we as consumers should be weary of language that treats the subject like a math equation. To over intellectualize is to tear the music apart. Deconstructing it from an academic perspective kills the essence of this beautiful music and promotes dancing from the neck up. You then create, at best, a kind of clever but soulless form that dances on top of the music merely illustrating how the music works. The best dancing doesn't come from following this path. The best dancers don't use this method but teachers will to sell another class with a title a mile long convincing you that they can unlock the secret.
Just something to think about the next time your subdividing your syncopation on the downside of the upside of the quicker slowbeat- in what timing? I forget.
Don't be so smart your stupid.
Cheers :)
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Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:14:26 EST
From: Crrtango@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] smart tango consumers
To: tango-l@mit.edu
An excellent post!
Heather wrote:
<I know it must be difficult to constantly try to find new ways to sell
classes and workshops but when it comes to musicality we as consumers should be
weary of language that treats the subject like a math equation. To over
intellectualize is to tear the music apart. Deconstructing it from an academic
perspective kills the essence of this beautiful music and promotes dancing from the
neck up. You then create, at best, a kind of clever but soulless form that
dances on top of the music merely illustrating how the music works. The best
dancing doesn't come from following this path. The best dancers don't use this
method but teachers will to sell another class with a title a mile long convincing
you that they can unlock the secret.
Just something to think about the next time your subdividing your syncopation
on the downside of the upside of the quicker slowbeat- in what timing? I
forget.
Don't be so smart your stupid.>
Although she is talking about the so-called "musicality" classes that are
such a big waste of time when it comes to dancing better, (and I say this as a
musician as well as a dancer) it applies as well
to all the intellectualization of steps on this list ... all the analysis, ad
nauseum, and search for some formula to unlock the "secret." It is not about
brains and command of the language. There was a cartoon in the New Yorker
recently which illustrates the point. A nerdy mathmetician has just finished a
huge equation at the end of a long blackboard and turns to his colleague and
exclaims: "I just figured out why we never get any dates."
I realize that musicality is a bit elusive to some but it is not that
complex. Just try to hear the basic beat and try to move in time with it. Which means
forget that fancy step you just paid for at the latest workshop if you can't
do it in time with the music. Over the years that is the single biggest
complaint I hear from my dancing partners about other leaders. They do too much and
don't hear the music. Maybe that's because they use their brains instead of
their ears and feet.
Cheers,
Charles
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Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:53:27 -0500
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Smart tango consumers
To: Heather Whitehead <heatherwhite3@hotmail.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
I agree with you Heather. I've noticed over time that the level of tango is becoming tied to more and more complex gyrations that are very difficult to coordinate with traditional tango music. Strangely enough, there are more "musicality" classes being offered all the time. IMHO, what people are failing to understand is that musicality is mostly associated with dancing rhythmically to the tango music. In other words, musicality means more ease or skill with the basics of the tango dance such as observing the code of the dance and learning to use the turns. Yes, there is a lot of pressure to come up with interesting names and descriptions of classes to attract attendees. The trick is to actually represent what the class will really be like and what the students can expect to get out of it. The best musicality class I ever took was from Gustavo Naveira back at the first CITA. It was wonderful, he demonstrated how he moved to different styles of orchestras. He showed how he int!
erpreted the music with his own movements and with different postures and expressions. True, it was not exactly a class of instruction about how to dance musically, but it certainly was an eye opener and a real inspiration. Sadly, every other class in "musicality" that I've taken since then was a total, boring waste of time, precisely because they were elaborate, cerebral works of dance deconstruction.
Cheers,
Manuel
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www.tango-rio.com
> From: heatherwhite3@hotmail.com
> To: tango-l@mit.edu
> Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 05:38:07 +0000
> Subject: [Tango-L] Smart tango consumers
>
>
>
>
> I know it must be difficult to constantly try to find new ways to sell classes and workshops but when it comes to musicality we as consumers should be weary of language that treats the subject like a math equation. To over intellectualize is to tear the music apart. Deconstructing it from an academic perspective kills the essence of this beautiful music and promotes dancing from the neck up. You then create, at best, a kind of clever but soulless form that dances on top of the music merely illustrating how the music works. The best dancing doesn't come from following this path. The best dancers don't use this method but teachers will to sell another class with a title a mile long convincing you that they can unlock the secret.
>
> Just something to think about the next time your subdividing your syncopation on the downside of the upside of the quicker slowbeat- in what timing? I forget.
>
> Don't be so smart your stupid.
>
>
> Cheers :)
>
>
> Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook ? together at last. Get it now.
> https://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:04:42 +0000
From: Felix Delgado <felixydelgado@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Smart tango consumers
To: Heather Whitehead <heatherwhite3@hotmail.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
> > I know it must be difficult to constantly try to find new ways to sell classes and workshops but when it comes to musicality we as consumers should be weary of language that treats the subject like a math equation. To over intellectualize is to tear the music apart. Deconstructing it from an academic perspective kills the essence of this beautiful music and promotes dancing from the neck up. You then create, at best, a kind of clever but soulless form that dances on top of the music merely illustrating how the music works. The best dancing doesn't come from following this path. The best dancers don't use this method but teachers will to sell another class with a title a mile long convincing you that they can unlock the secret. > > Just something to think about the next time your subdividing your syncopation on the downside of the upside of the quicker slowbeat- in what timing? I forget.> > Don't be so smart your stupid.>
Yes, Heather, I know what you mean. Too much analysis and you can't dance anymore. Tango needs to come from your body, not your head.
However, on he other hand, we shouldn't simplify tango to just 'dancing on the beat' which, of course, is better than not paying attention to the music. Someone who just steps on the beat hasn't explored the rich musical variety in tango. So how do we get there? I think for many people it is just intuitive in that you vary the expression of your dance with the feelings the music produces in you. Sometimes you are inspired to use more double-time steps, sometimes more pauses, sometimes more sharp changes in direction, sometimes more pivoting moves. Kind of vague, isn't it? It probably can't be sold by a tango instructor. Most of the best tango skills can't. They come from your own discovery of the dance through dancing, dancing, dancing....
Anyway, that's my humble opinion.
Felix
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Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:35:44 -0800 (PST)
From: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Smart tango consumers
To: Felix Delgado <felixydelgado@hotmail.com>, Heather Whitehead
<heatherwhite3@hotmail.com>, tango-l@mit.edu
"Sometimes you are inspired to use more double-time steps,
sometimes more pauses, sometimes more sharp changes in
direction, sometimes more pivoting moves. Kind of vague, isn't it?"
Time for the dissenting opinion.
There are reasons why you are inspired to move differently at
different times. It is only vague if you don't have someone to
explain what is happening in the music, or don't take the time
to figure it out yourself. Some of us, though, are curious enough
to spend time trying to understand the why of things.
Sure, it's possible to over analyze, but if understanding the relationship
between music and movement makes you less of a dancer, I'd say
there is something else going on that needs to be addressed.
Investigate. Understand. Integrate.
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Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 11:25:54 -0800
From: "Brick Robbins" <brick@fastpack.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] smart tango consumers
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<ca2c2380711151125k7949b92bsce6a727302e09484@mail.gmail.com>
> > when it comes to musicality we as consumers should be weary of language that treats the subject like a math equation. To over intellectualize is to tear the music apart. Deconstructing it from an academic perspective kills the essence of this beautiful music and promotes dancing from the neck up.<<
I'm going to have to disagree with the idea that musicality classes
are a waste of time. Of course ANY class can be a waste of time if
poorly taught, but that is not what I am talking about.
Some people "naturally hear the music." Some don't. Most of the people
that don't, CAN be taught how to hear it. After they understand what
sorts of things to listen for, with listening practice, most will
begin to "hear" it and don't need to think about the rules anymore.
After they learn to "hear" it, they can be shown simple elements to
dance that might fit the music.
This is analogous to taking language classes. Not everyone needs
classes, some can just "pick it up" on the street. Most adults do
better if they learn grammar and vocabulary in a class, so they
understand what sorts of things to listen for, and with lots of
practice, they get to the point where they don't need to think about
the rules anymore.
Understanding the following elements of common song structure is
immensely helpful to dancers of any dance. They are present in most
Tangos:
*8 bar harmonic cadence (sometimes called chord progressions or phrasing)
*the resolve at the end of an 8 bar phrase
*the fill at the end of an 8 bar phrase (when present)
*the "introduction, verse, bridge, verse" structure
Tango usually adds much more complexity and variation in addition the
basic elements listed above, but "writing about music is like dancing
about architecture," so I'll stop here.
Does simply "knowing" this stuff make one a better dancer? Of course not.
Does every dancer need to know this to be excellent? Not at all.
Can an aspiring dancer use this knowledge to "learn what to listen
to," and eventually, no longer have to "think about the rules?" Of
course.... I know I did.
Then, perhaps he can learn to apply simple elements that might match
the music better.
So, No, musicality classes are not a waste of time. But like all
classes the teacher must know what to teach, and the student must
practice, practice, practice. And while the student is practicing, he
will be clumsy, awkward, and mechanical. Cut him some slack....
eventually you will have a better dancer.
Have you ever spoken with a foreigner who is taking a class to learn
your language? Are you rude, short and mean when they make mistakes?
Brick Robbins
San Diego, CA
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:30:21 EST
From: Crrtango@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] smart tango consumers
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Brick writes:
<This is analogous to taking language classes. Not everyone needs
classes, some can just "pick it up" on the street. Most adults do
better if they learn grammar and vocabulary in a class, so they
understand what sorts of things to listen for, and with lots of
practice, they get to the point where they don't need to think about
the rules anymore.>
Not really. As someone who knows several languages, I think there is a big
difference between learning a language, its vocabulary, its rules, etc. and
actually speaking it fluidly, especially without an accent. That comes from
practicing the speaking. If anything, speaking and sounding like the language you
are learning comes from practicing speech, not studying rules. If the rules
are so paramount, why are small children able to speak perfectly well long
before learning all the grammar and rules? Practicing the speaking is analogous to
dancing to the music. That doesn't come from studying musical structure, etc.
It comes from listening and dancing.
He also wrote:
<Understanding the following elements of common song structure is
immensely helpful to dancers of any dance. They are present in most
Tangos:
*8 bar harmonic cadence (sometimes called chord progressions or phrasing)
*the resolve at the end of an 8 bar phrase
*the fill at the end of an 8 bar phrase (when present)
*the "introduction, verse, bridge, verse" structure>
If you are doing choreography perhaps this is helpful, but you don't really
need to kow this to dance well.
Not to be rude, mean or short but your post actually seems to illustrate our
point.
Charles
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Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:19:31 +1100
From: Victor Bennetts <Victor_Bennetts@infosys.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] smart tango consumers
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>
<EBAF6BD07D1C6C42AF55D51893B4C6DA02431CF8AE@AUSMELMBX01.ad.infosys.com>
Feelings are great but they only get you so far. I am not a mathematician, but surely tango is capable of mathematical modelling. For instance:
(1/style(posture + embrace))*{1,2,3...n steps}^musicality(melody + rhythm)/ [collisions U boleo disasters] = tango success index
Once we have tango down as a mathematical expression we can write a computer program to generate optimal tango moves for us. The next logical step is to turn it into an online role playing game and then commercialise it. I look forward to the first virtual Milonga.
Alternatively if you are a lawyer you can come up with a restatement of tango law. This would require an extensive set of definitions including for the roles of leader and follower and setting out clearly the rights and obligations of each party in various situations such as when the follower is crossed PROVIDED THAT due regard has been given for sui generis steps created 'on the fly'. Remedies for breach of obligations could range from simple apologies to custodial sentence requiring the offender to be summarily removed from the dance floor. Naturally there would be many grey areas and disputes as to interpretation and I would be happy to act as a chair for international tango arbitrations.
Because as a leader if you just make your goal to give your follower a nicely executed simple dance which they enjoy and ditch everything else where is that going to take us... oh wait damn - that is my idea of good dancing ;-)
Victor Bennetts
<I know it must be difficult to constantly try to find new ways to sell
classes and workshops but when it comes to musicality we as consumers should be weary of language that treats the subject like a math equation. >
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Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:47:54 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Smart tango consumers
Sorry to be posting so late on this thread. But the "smart
tango consumer" can always ask the organizer/teacher what
the class is about and judge for themselves whether it
suits their needs.
There may be those organizers who say "take everything
because they'll be great" for their every event. The smart
tango consumer will take their advice with a grain of salt
and will look for other sources for more info.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Heather Whitehead <heatherwhite3@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> I know it must be difficult to constantly try to find new
> ways to sell classes and workshops but when it comes to
> musicality we as consumers should be weary of language
> that treats the subject like a math equation. To over
> intellectualize is to tear the music apart.
> Deconstructing it from an academic perspective kills the
> essence of this beautiful music and promotes dancing from
> the neck up. You then create, at best, a kind of clever
> but soulless form that dances on top of the music merely
> illustrating how the music works. The best dancing
> doesn't come from following this path. The best dancers
> don't use this method but teachers will to sell another
> class with a title a mile long convincing you that they
> can unlock the secret.
>
> Just something to think about the next time your
> subdividing your syncopation on the downside of the
> upside of the quicker slowbeat- in what timing? I forget.
>
> Don't be so smart your stupid.
>
>
> Cheers :)
>
>
>
> Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook ?
> together at last. ?Get it now.
>
https://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033
>
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Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
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