4194 Social tango definition
Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 14:04:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social tango definition
To: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>, tango-l@mit.edu
Dear Sergo:
Your definition of social tango sounds perfectly
reasonable. The convoluted definitions of Michael and
others are not.
--- Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> People may do an exhibition in close embrace tango
> and this is Stage tango.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> I think that at this point it is important to define
> 'Social Tango'.
>
> As you know the first division of tango in Argentina
> is Salon (the one done
> socially at the salons or clubs) and Stage (the one
> performed for
> exhibitions or on stage).
>
> IMO when people gather to socialize and dance they
> are doing 'social
> dancing' irrespective of the style they are doing.
>
> So people may gather to do Salon Open embrace or
> Nuevo tango and this is
> Social dancing.
>
> People may do an exhibition in close embrace tango
> and this is Stage tango.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Sergio
>
>
> it now!
>
>
>
Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 11:06:47 +0800
From: Kace <kace@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social tango definition
To: tango-l@mit.edu
As a tango instructor (not self-appointed) we are frequently asked to
explain to our classes the difference between social and show tango.
This is my definition:
- Social tango is like fishes swimming in a stream -- you need to have
a clear sense of direction and not lose your companion in a herd.
Dancing close is not mandatory, but it is the most energy-efficient and
relaxing way to dance in a crowded space. We teach them both open
and close, but most end up preferring close-embrace.
- Show tango is like fishes swimming in a static pond. Nothing stops
you from expending your energy in convoluted figures in all combination
of possibilities, but the price is a weakened or broken connection with
your partner. Frequently these extra movements serve no communication
purpose except to look aesthetically exciting to an audience.
In my class we define the open embrace as providing an extra degrees
of freedom of movement -- a completely loose arm is 2 degree while a
firm arm open embrace is 1 degree. A liquid hold that moves between
open and close adds and subtracts degree, whereas a static hold that
stays in one position remains in the same degree of freedom.
It is academically interesting to study the possibilities of extra degrees
of freedom, and I recommend choreographers, instructors and
academics to explore this to push the envelope of tango. The style
of embrace have meanings in choreography terms, to represent
love, confrontation, power, and control.
But if the freedom to open the embrace is taken too far, you may
even end up using only one hand or releasing the hold completely -- as
Andres does in some of his figures -- and you have to question if it is
still "tango" without the embrace. In that case, why not have solo
"shines" like salsa dancers?
For social dancers wishing to stay in a tango trance, close embrace
is most enjoyable. But this is not a dogma.
The bottom line: a learner should understand the concepts of extra
degrees of freedom using looser embrace --- but if he is a good enough
social dancer, he probably do not need it on the dance floor.
Kace
tangosingapore.com
Derik Rawson wrote:
> Dear Sergo:
>
> Your definition of social tango sounds perfectly
> reasonable. The convoluted definitions of Michael and
> others are not.
>
> --- Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>> People may do an exhibition in close embrace tango
>> and this is Stage tango.
>>
>
> Derik
> d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
>
> --- Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>> I think that at this point it is important to define
>> 'Social Tango'.
>>
>> As you know the first division of tango in Argentina
>> is Salon (the one done
>> socially at the salons or clubs) and Stage (the one
>> performed for
>> exhibitions or on stage).
>>
>> IMO when people gather to socialize and dance they
>> are doing 'social
>> dancing' irrespective of the style they are doing.
>>
>> So people may gather to do Salon Open embrace or
>> Nuevo tango and this is
>> Social dancing.
>>
>> People may do an exhibition in close embrace tango
>> and this is Stage tango.
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> Sergio
>>
>>
>>
>
>> it now!
>>
>>
>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 21:18:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social tango definition and the importance of
the embrace
To: Kace <kace@pacific.net.sg>, tango-l@mit.edu
Dear Kace:
Welcome to the list....
I have danced Argentine tango chest to chest with zero
embrace (both hands down) and to me it is still
definitely tango. I have danced the same way
completely open and not touching my partner at all,
and that is also definitely tango.
In Argentine tango, we move together and follow each
others bodies. We move into and out of each others
space, right? To me, that is how the dance is lead
and followed. If one is not "connected" with ones
partner and feeling her presence in your space,
nothing much interesting happens. The embrace,
although a very cool, really has very little to do
with anything. It can be whatever one wants it to be,
and it can change instantly according to ones mood at
the time. My opinion.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- Kace <kace@pacific.net.sg> wrote:
> As a tango instructor (not self-appointed) we are
> frequently asked to
> explain to our classes the difference between social
> and show tango.
> This is my definition:
>
> - Social tango is like fishes swimming in a stream
> -- you need to have
> a clear sense of direction and not lose your
> companion in a herd.
> Dancing close is not mandatory, but it is the most
> energy-efficient and
> relaxing way to dance in a crowded space. We teach
> them both open
> and close, but most end up preferring close-embrace.
>
> - Show tango is like fishes swimming in a static
> pond. Nothing stops
> you from expending your energy in convoluted figures
> in all combination
> of possibilities, but the price is a weakened or
> broken connection with
> your partner. Frequently these extra movements serve
> no communication
> purpose except to look aesthetically exciting to an
> audience.
>
> In my class we define the open embrace as providing
> an extra degrees
> of freedom of movement -- a completely loose arm is
> 2 degree while a
> firm arm open embrace is 1 degree. A liquid hold
> that moves between
> open and close adds and subtracts degree, whereas a
> static hold that
> stays in one position remains in the same degree of
> freedom.
>
> It is academically interesting to study the
> possibilities of extra degrees
> of freedom, and I recommend choreographers,
> instructors and
> academics to explore this to push the envelope of
> tango. The style
> of embrace have meanings in choreography terms, to
> represent
> love, confrontation, power, and control.
>
> But if the freedom to open the embrace is taken too
> far, you may
> even end up using only one hand or releasing the
> hold completely -- as
> Andres does in some of his figures -- and you have
> to question if it is
> still "tango" without the embrace. In that case, why
> not have solo
> "shines" like salsa dancers?
>
> For social dancers wishing to stay in a tango
> trance, close embrace
> is most enjoyable. But this is not a dogma.
>
> The bottom line: a learner should understand the
> concepts of extra
> degrees of freedom using looser embrace --- but if
> he is a good enough
> social dancer, he probably do not need it on the
> dance floor.
>
> Kace
> tangosingapore.com
>
>
> Derik Rawson wrote:
> > Dear Sergo:
> >
> > Your definition of social tango sounds perfectly
> > reasonable. The convoluted definitions of Michael
> and
> > others are not.
> >
> > --- Sergio Vandekier
> <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >> People may do an exhibition in close embrace
> tango
> >> and this is Stage tango.
> >>
> >
> > Derik
> > d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
> >
> > --- Sergio Vandekier
> <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >> I think that at this point it is important to
> define
> >> 'Social Tango'.
> >>
> >> As you know the first division of tango in
> Argentina
> >> is Salon (the one done
> >> socially at the salons or clubs) and Stage (the
> one
> >> performed for
> >> exhibitions or on stage).
> >>
> >> IMO when people gather to socialize and dance
> they
> >> are doing 'social
> >> dancing' irrespective of the style they are
> doing.
> >>
> >> So people may gather to do Salon Open embrace or
> >> Nuevo tango and this is
> >> Social dancing.
> >>
> >> People may do an exhibition in close embrace
> tango
> >> and this is Stage tango.
> >>
> >> What do you think?
> >>
> >> Sergio
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
> >
> get
> >> it now!
> >>
> >>
> >
>
> >
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> protection around
> >
> >
>
>
>
Derik Rawson
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
https://www.rawsonweb.com
713-522-0888 USA Landline Direct to Portable Cell Phone
281-754-4315 USA Landline Voice/Fax
d.rawson@cal.berkeley.edu
d.rawson@haas.alum.berkeley.edu
rawsonweb@yahoo.com
Europe/Asia
rawsonweb@compuserve.com
Paris, France
Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 13:44:15 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social tango definition
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
I think there are 3 types of tango:
- Show tango, when you dance for someone to watch, perform as an artist. It
requires guts and artistic skills!
- Personal tango, when you dance for your partner and yourself only, when
you are looking for dance trance ( or whatever else you call it ),
and
- Social tango, when you come to meet with your old friends, make new
friends, communicate, chat, learn something new, experience touch,
cooperate in a united activity, help a beginner, just live as a social
being.
These are the only differences between them. Everything else: what you dance
and how is irrelevant. These 3 are not defined by any dance styles.
Someone dance show tango, but in fact it is a Personal one.
And someone dance Personal, and it appears to be a Show!
Igor
Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 17:29:05 -0400
From: rtara <rtara@MAINE.RR.COM>
Subject: [Tango-L] FW: Social tango definition
To: tangolist <TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
------ Forwarded Message
> From: rtara <rtara@maine.rr.com>
> Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 17:25:35 -0400
> To: Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com>
> Conversation: [Tango-L] Social tango definition
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social tango definition
>
> Well, Igor, I suppose you could narrow it further to "social tango" and
> "anti-social" tango.
>
> Robin
>
> Tara Design, Inc.
> www.taratangoshoes.com
> Toll Free in US: 1-877-906-8272
>
> 18 Stillman St.
> So. Portland ME 04106
> 207-741-2992--
>
>
>
>> From: Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com>
>> Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 13:44:15 -0700
>> To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
>> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social tango definition
>>
>> I think there are 3 types of tango:
>>
>> - Show tango, when you dance for someone to watch, perform as an artist. It
>> requires guts and artistic skills!
>> - Personal tango, when you dance for your partner and yourself only, when
>> you are looking for dance trance ( or whatever else you call it ),
>> and
>> - Social tango, when you come to meet with your old friends, make new
>> friends, communicate, chat, learn something new, experience touch,
>> cooperate in a united activity, help a beginner, just live as a social
>> being.
>>
>> These are the only differences between them. Everything else: what you dance
>> and how is irrelevant. These 3 are not defined by any dance styles.
>>
>> Someone dance show tango, but in fact it is a Personal one.
>> And someone dance Personal, and it appears to be a Show!
>>
>> Igor
>>
------ End of Forwarded Message
Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 14:45:35 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: [Tango-L] FW: Social tango definition
To: <TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
No Robin from Tara Design, I do not think so.
I hope my message does not counterpose these 3.
Anti-social tango term is from another domain.
One is a proponent of a social tango when he says that he should be able to
dance with any girl.
A guys who answered "Why I should dance with any girl?" is a proponent of
Personal tango. Personal tango does not require a milonga at all.
But still, I do not quite understand you.
Can you explain, please, what do you mean?
If anti-social tango is what a couple which hinders everybody else's dancing
do, it is just bad tango.
Igor.
Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 15:15:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social tango definition
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Igor, so does this mean that we can't go to a milonga
(or a practica), and enjoy the social aspects and
still dance "personal tango"?
Sorry, Igor, we're discussing the term "social tango"
as it relates to dance styles. It is used quite
commonly (in the US, anyway) to refer to the styles of
dance that can be danced politely on a crowded dance
floor. Of course all tango can be considered a "social
activity", even if its a tango class, but that's
missing the point of this discussion.
And if "Someone dance show tango, but in fact it is a
Personal one", doesn't that muddy up your own
definitions?
Cheers,
Michael
--- Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
> I think there are 3 types of tango:
>
> - Show tango, when you dance for someone to watch,
> perform as an artist. It
> requires guts and artistic skills!
> - Personal tango, when you dance for your partner
> and yourself only, when
> you are looking for dance trance ( or whatever else
> you call it ),
> and
> - Social tango, when you come to meet with your old
> friends, make new
> friends, communicate, chat, learn something new,
> experience touch,
> cooperate in a united activity, help a beginner,
> just live as a social
> being.
>
> These are the only differences between them.
> Everything else: what you dance
> and how is irrelevant. These 3 are not defined by
> any dance styles.
>
> Someone dance show tango, but in fact it is a
> Personal one.
> And someone dance Personal, and it appears to be a
> Show!
>
> Igor
>
>
Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 20:02:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Social tango definition
Hi Kace,
Interesting post. There is one specific thing that I
would like to address, which has appeared in other
posts.
> But if the freedom to open the embrace is taken too
> far, you may even end up using only one hand or
releasing the hold completely -- as Andres does in
some of his figures -- and you have to question if it
is still "tango" without the embrace. In that case,
why not have solo "shines" like salsa dancers?
To dance tango, one needs a good connection, but not
necessarily a physical embrace. When Andres was here,
we did a great improvisations class that showed us how
the connection between dancers was more than just
physical contact. It was about intention toward one's
partner - for both partners. Andres explained that we
use body positioning to orient ourselves to our
partner, which matches what we have learned from
Jaimes Friedgen.
It would be difficult for me to explain the specific
exercise, so I will explain it in the negative. Have
you ever danced with someone in the traditional
embrace who just wasn't with you? Maybe he/she was
more interested in the steps or his/her mind was
elsewhere. Did you perhaps feel that you just weren't
doing tango with that person?
Sometimes late in the milonga, Sean & I will give each
other that "come hither and dance" look, in which we
saunter toward each other and dance flirtatiously
without an embrace. There is no doubt that we are
doing tango. Sean doesn't need an embrace to tell me
what direction he wants me to go. He just goes, and I
tag along because I want to dance with him.
I do not dance salsa, but I think that what makes
tango different is that it is completely lead. I have
heard that when couples dance side-by-side in ballroom
dances, the steps are choreographed. The man signals
the woman what he wants to do by pressing a certain
way on her hand. That doesn't seem like leading to
me.
Good tango connections to all,
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
