5215 Some leaders *are* trying to learn Tango rhythm -
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 10:55:47 -0700
From: John Sing <singj@us.ibm.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Some leaders *are* trying to learn Tango rhythm -
for some of us, it's just not easy
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<OF93835A4C.3EA693EA-ON8825736A.00607137-8825736A.0062BC8A@us.ibm.com>
Hi, all,
I very much appreciate what Bruno said below,
"I believe you always need to take into account how much each person
you are teaching actually "knows and breathes" music".
For many of us (especially guys), who have not grown up with music as part
of our lives, finding and learning the ability to
even hear the tango rhythm properly, let alone dance to it, can be a real
challenge.
For me, after nearly four years of struggle (and patience by my wife), I
am finally developing
the basic skills in hearing the Tango music and being able to dance on
beat
and with some basic syncopation. Four years is a very long time to be
frustrated...
yet that is what it took for me to finally develop the basic ability to
hear and then
be able to express the music at basic level.
I would ask that many readers just know that I know that while for some of
you it is quite easy....
For some of us, it is just not easy at all (and we certainly wish it was
not so as well)l.
I ask that you at least have some empathy for those of us guys who are
trying so
hard to learn this difficult dance..... we just don't have the background
or innate
skill to know how to hear and express the music (yet).
Certainly, followers should not feel obligated to subject themselves to
leaders who do not
yet have developed the musicality skill - I am not advocating that, of
course.
Just want to express that there are those of us who know that musicality
is important,
who try mightly, but ....... nature just did not give us the
tools to pick it up fast, and we have to keep learning it until (finally)
we do learn it.....
I for one am an advocate of continual innovation in the teaching of tango.
Just as
modern science and natural sports medicine has helped gymnastics, other
dance
forms, and athletic performance to excel.... and well-produced
television like Fox TV's
"So You Think You Can Dance" exposes dance in a popular way to wide
audiences...
I hope that Tango teaching methods also evolve in a positive direction, to
help
students learn necessary skills at a reasonably faster pace.
Certainly, such successful continued teaching innovation would raise the
overall level and
participation of Tango and the number of good leaders in the dancing pool!
Thx.
John Sing
San Mateo, Calif
================================
referencing what was said on the Tango-L list:
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 14:26:26 -0400
From: "Endzone 102" <endzone102@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some leaders *are* trying to learn Tango rhythm
- for some of us, it's just not easy
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<694bf47d0710041126j38f1bea1hf1b9c55764ada5b0@mail.gmail.com>
Thanks, John. This is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm looking for a
good way to teach musicality to the folks here who don't know how to
interpret the music. I've had some success "diagramming" the music (sine
curves are my friend), but it's a bit of a struggle.
-Greg G
On 10/4/07, John Sing <singj@us.ibm.com> wrote:
>
> Hi, all,
>
> I very much appreciate what Bruno said below,
>
> "I believe you always need to take into account how much each person
> you are teaching actually "knows and breathes" music".
>
> For many of us (especially guys), who have not grown up with music as part
> of our lives, finding and learning the ability to
> even hear the tango rhythm properly, let alone dance to it, can be a real
> challenge.
>
> For me, after nearly four years of struggle (and patience by my wife), I
> am finally developing
> the basic skills in hearing the Tango music and being able to dance on
> beat
> and with some basic syncopation. Four years is a very long time to be
> frustrated...
> yet that is what it took for me to finally develop the basic ability to
> hear and then
> be able to express the music at basic level.
>
> I would ask that many readers just know that I know that while for some of
> you it is quite easy....
>
> For some of us, it is just not easy at all (and we certainly wish it was
> not so as well)l.
>
> I ask that you at least have some empathy for those of us guys who are
> trying so
> hard to learn this difficult dance..... we just don't have the background
> or innate
> skill to know how to hear and express the music (yet).
>
> Certainly, followers should not feel obligated to subject themselves to
> leaders who do not
> yet have developed the musicality skill - I am not advocating that, of
> course.
>
> Just want to express that there are those of us who know that musicality
> is important,
> who try mightly, but ....... nature just did not give us the
> tools to pick it up fast, and we have to keep learning it until (finally)
> we do learn it.....
>
> I for one am an advocate of continual innovation in the teaching of tango.
> Just as
> modern science and natural sports medicine has helped gymnastics, other
> dance
> forms, and athletic performance to excel.... and well-produced
> television like Fox TV's
> "So You Think You Can Dance" exposes dance in a popular way to wide
> audiences...
>
> I hope that Tango teaching methods also evolve in a positive direction, to
> help
> students learn necessary skills at a reasonably faster pace.
>
> Certainly, such successful continued teaching innovation would raise the
> overall level and
> participation of Tango and the number of good leaders in the dancing pool!
>
> Thx.
>
>
> John Sing
> San Mateo, Calif
>
> ================================
>
> referencing what was said on the Tango-L list:
>
>
> Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 01:54:00 -0400
> From: "Bruno Afonso" <bafonso@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Igor's Question: a woman's perspective
> To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
> <4f5d14730710032254j686c914fue7cffa32dc1b4c6b@mail.gmail.com>
>
> Hi,
>
> I believe you always need to take into account how much each person
> you are teaching actually "knows and breathes" music.
>
> There's a couple of aspects that are important to me:
>
> 1) A good leader should be able to interpret the music and dance
> accordingly. (let's assume for now that the person has basic skills to
> do that). One of the hardest part is to transmit that interpretation
> to the follower in a non-imposing way. It's hard to search for
> alternatives interpretations when it is not working with the follower
> while you are in the middle of the music. But that's why we need to
> practice more :-) Getting to know more and more the follower helps of
> course.
>
> 2) Interpreting music at a non-basic level. After a while it's easy to
> dance to the beat, as in a step in a beat or similar. The hard part is
> to start playing with the beat. This playing w/ the beat allows you to
> "flow" through the music and be creative and putting those flashy
> moves of 15 "steps" in a musical context. One can imprint a slight
> vals flavor in a normal 4/4 by swinging 3 on 1 beat or on 2. Why not
> go for 3 + 2 and get a salsa'esq flavor for an instant?
>
> When I started out I was amazed at how people could dance/ do moves
> not on the rhythm. But I've learned that definitely not a lot of
> people have the background experience to actually understand what's
> happening at a rhythmical level or even tonal or timbric. We're all
> different and we all can improve in multiple dimensions. The more we
> listen and dance, the better we will get at it.
>
> I've found that some followers don't enjoy so much as others when I
> play a bit and don't do a "standard" interpretation. Others say they
> love it. That's the tao of any human interaction I guess :-) I'll go
> back to lurking mode.
>
> peace
> b
>
> On 10/2/07, Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org> wrote:
> > I understand there is a problem, but disagree that it has to be a
> > problem.
> >
> > Argentine Tango seems so improvisational and flexible that you can't
> > find the structure. Specifically, the phrasing structure of Tango is 4
> > +4=8. This is easy count and easy to match with simple steps. But
> > when you have too many steps, you lose the musicality. That is why it
> > is so hard to teach musicality to intermediate and advanced dancers.
> >
> > The cool thing is: IT IS VERY EASY TO TEACH MUSICALITY TO BEGINNERS.
> >
> >
> > On Oct 2, 2007, at 12:40 PM, Endzone 102 wrote:
> >
> > > On 10/2/07, Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Teaching Musicality.
> > >>
> > >> So, when I teach I am highly focused on showing the men where the
> > >> beat is and where the musical phrasing is. Change the music, repeat
> > >> and rinse. It takes repetition and time, as this is a strange foreign
> > >> genre to most. Basically, if they don't know the music, then they
> > >> have to be shown exactly where it is, and how to make their movements
> > >> relate to it.
> > >>
>
>
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 01:33:58 -0400
From: "Bruno Afonso" <bafonso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some leaders *are* trying to learn Tango rhythm
- for some of us, it's just not easy
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<4f5d14730710042233g3d0e5938o2ee3bd288b96a113@mail.gmail.com>
Hi Greg,
That's an interesting musical education problem we have here. I must
say I've fascinated by music in all of its aspects. It is, after all,
a presence that affects our brain in a remarkable and fascinating way.
While we can - as humans beings - easily find the "beat" if it's not
too obscure, interpretation requires a more fine understanding of a
music. And that can be taught. After all, every musician has in a way
or other built from previous knowledge.
There are some nice exercises you can do. For example:
1) Can they find how many beats there are per measure ? Are there 4 ?
how long are they? can you tap to them?
2) What instruments are giving you the nice beat feeling? Can you
distinguish between those and others ? this will make persons start
acquiring a three-dimensional notion of music and stage. It will
develop timbre notions that may have eluded them. This is hard, bare
that in mind. Everyone's brain is different, respect that.
3) Picking up on 1, can you tap the first 1 and 3 ? 1 . 3 . 1 . 3 ..
What about the 1st, 3rd and fourth ? Get them to start on 2nd, usually
it's harder. (just like it's harder in general to dance on2 in salsa,
you have to start on the backbeat)
4) Can you feel the "swing" by slightly anticipating the 4th (tapping
or dancing) before you go back into the first on the beat?
If they are comfortably tapping these, how about dancing them? This
will help anyone build their repertoire of rhythm interpretation. It
does create a different mood in the dance.
I got into dancing tango because listening to it made me incredibly
want to dance it. tango music for me inspires me to dance. Even
Piazolla, etc. I feel that I may be a minority among men I guess,
specially reading what people write around here. But then again, I'm a
jazz fanatic too, so definitely, not in the middle of bell curve. :-)
I cannot listen to tango and not want to dance it. Even the more
"non-danceable" forms of it. They are challenging and begging for
interpretation on the dance floor. That is what drives me to dance
more. Not the steps. The best moments I've had in tango were very
simple, enjoying the music and sharing that feeling with the other
person. I truly believe teachers today are a bit forced to teach
steps/moves because the ones who are paying expect it. Some teachers
avoid and try to solidify basics /etc. Others churn out steps/moves. I
believe no amount of moves/steps will make anyone musically apt.
Like many others, I see tango as the jazz of dance music. you need to
understand the music so that you can improvise on it. You can
improvise using just one note if you use it wisely. Playing 500 notes
will not necessarily make a good solo and the lack of judgement for
adequate silences will definitely make it bland.
b
On 10/4/07, Endzone 102 <endzone102@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks, John. This is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm looking for a
> good way to teach musicality to the folks here who don't know how to
> interpret the music. I've had some success "diagramming" the music (sine
> curves are my friend), but it's a bit of a struggle.
>
> -Greg G
>
> On 10/4/07, John Sing <singj@us.ibm.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, all,
> >
> > I very much appreciate what Bruno said below,
> >
> > "I believe you always need to take into account how much each person
> > you are teaching actually "knows and breathes" music".
> >
> > For many of us (especially guys), who have not grown up with music as part
> > of our lives, finding and learning the ability to
> > even hear the tango rhythm properly, let alone dance to it, can be a real
> > challenge.
> >
> > For me, after nearly four years of struggle (and patience by my wife), I
> > am finally developing
> > the basic skills in hearing the Tango music and being able to dance on
> > beat
> > and with some basic syncopation. Four years is a very long time to be
> > frustrated...
> > yet that is what it took for me to finally develop the basic ability to
> > hear and then
> > be able to express the music at basic level.
> >
> > I would ask that many readers just know that I know that while for some of
> > you it is quite easy....
> >
> > For some of us, it is just not easy at all (and we certainly wish it was
> > not so as well)l.
> >
> > I ask that you at least have some empathy for those of us guys who are
> > trying so
> > hard to learn this difficult dance..... we just don't have the background
> > or innate
> > skill to know how to hear and express the music (yet).
> >
> > Certainly, followers should not feel obligated to subject themselves to
> > leaders who do not
> > yet have developed the musicality skill - I am not advocating that, of
> > course.
> >
> > Just want to express that there are those of us who know that musicality
> > is important,
> > who try mightly, but ....... nature just did not give us the
> > tools to pick it up fast, and we have to keep learning it until (finally)
> > we do learn it.....
> >
> > I for one am an advocate of continual innovation in the teaching of tango.
> > Just as
> > modern science and natural sports medicine has helped gymnastics, other
> > dance
> > forms, and athletic performance to excel.... and well-produced
> > television like Fox TV's
> > "So You Think You Can Dance" exposes dance in a popular way to wide
> > audiences...
> >
> > I hope that Tango teaching methods also evolve in a positive direction, to
> > help
> > students learn necessary skills at a reasonably faster pace.
> >
> > Certainly, such successful continued teaching innovation would raise the
> > overall level and
> > participation of Tango and the number of good leaders in the dancing pool!
> >
> > Thx.
> >
> >
> > John Sing
> > San Mateo, Calif
> >
> > ================================
> >
> > referencing what was said on the Tango-L list:
> >
> >
> > Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 01:54:00 -0400
> > From: "Bruno Afonso" <bafonso@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Igor's Question: a woman's perspective
> > To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
> > <4f5d14730710032254j686c914fue7cffa32dc1b4c6b@mail.gmail.com>
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I believe you always need to take into account how much each person
> > you are teaching actually "knows and breathes" music.
> >
> > There's a couple of aspects that are important to me:
> >
> > 1) A good leader should be able to interpret the music and dance
> > accordingly. (let's assume for now that the person has basic skills to
> > do that). One of the hardest part is to transmit that interpretation
> > to the follower in a non-imposing way. It's hard to search for
> > alternatives interpretations when it is not working with the follower
> > while you are in the middle of the music. But that's why we need to
> > practice more :-) Getting to know more and more the follower helps of
> > course.
> >
> > 2) Interpreting music at a non-basic level. After a while it's easy to
> > dance to the beat, as in a step in a beat or similar. The hard part is
> > to start playing with the beat. This playing w/ the beat allows you to
> > "flow" through the music and be creative and putting those flashy
> > moves of 15 "steps" in a musical context. One can imprint a slight
> > vals flavor in a normal 4/4 by swinging 3 on 1 beat or on 2. Why not
> > go for 3 + 2 and get a salsa'esq flavor for an instant?
> >
> > When I started out I was amazed at how people could dance/ do moves
> > not on the rhythm. But I've learned that definitely not a lot of
> > people have the background experience to actually understand what's
> > happening at a rhythmical level or even tonal or timbric. We're all
> > different and we all can improve in multiple dimensions. The more we
> > listen and dance, the better we will get at it.
> >
> > I've found that some followers don't enjoy so much as others when I
> > play a bit and don't do a "standard" interpretation. Others say they
> > love it. That's the tao of any human interaction I guess :-) I'll go
> > back to lurking mode.
> >
> > peace
> > b
> >
> > On 10/2/07, Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org> wrote:
> > > I understand there is a problem, but disagree that it has to be a
> > > problem.
> > >
> > > Argentine Tango seems so improvisational and flexible that you can't
> > > find the structure. Specifically, the phrasing structure of Tango is 4
> > > +4=8. This is easy count and easy to match with simple steps. But
> > > when you have too many steps, you lose the musicality. That is why it
> > > is so hard to teach musicality to intermediate and advanced dancers.
> > >
> > > The cool thing is: IT IS VERY EASY TO TEACH MUSICALITY TO BEGINNERS.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Oct 2, 2007, at 12:40 PM, Endzone 102 wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 10/2/07, Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Teaching Musicality.
> > > >>
> > > >> So, when I teach I am highly focused on showing the men where the
> > > >> beat is and where the musical phrasing is. Change the music, repeat
> > > >> and rinse. It takes repetition and time, as this is a strange foreign
> > > >> genre to most. Basically, if they don't know the music, then they
> > > >> have to be shown exactly where it is, and how to make their movements
> > > >> relate to it.
> > > >>
> >
> >
>
--
Bruno Afonso
https://brunoafonso.com (personal, mostly portuguese)
https://openwetware.org/wiki/User:BrunoAfonso (Professional, english)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 15:59:07 +1000
From: Victor Bennetts <Victor_Bennetts@infosys.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some leaders *are* trying to learn Tango rhythm
- forsome of us, it's just not easy
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>
<EBAF6BD07D1C6C42AF55D51893B4C6DA0151416A46@AUSMELMBX01.ad.infosys.com>
Here is another idea. Actually try learning a musical instrument. I know a few musicians who are dancers and they are all musical as you would expect, although their dancing might suck for other reasons :-) I don't think you need a degree in music to be able to dance tango well, just a basic understanding is fine. And if you are really musically challenged or can't be bothered with the tedium of learning all those scales, just do what I do and sing the words of your favourite tango songs in the shower/car. All the words are on the internet and once you have sung something yourself, no matter how badly, it is amazing how much more intimately you understand it.
Victor Bennetts
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Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2007 09:51:29 -0500
From: Jeff Gaynor <jjg@jqhome.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Some leaders *are* trying to learn Tango rhythm -
forsome of us, it's just not easy
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Victor Bennetts wrote:
> Here is another idea. Actually try learning a musical instrument. I know a few musicians who are dancers and they are all musical as you would expect, although their dancing might suck for other reasons :-) I don't think you need a degree in music to be able to dance tango well, just a basic understanding is fine. And if you are really musically challenged or can't be bothered with the tedium of learning all those scales, just do what I do and sing the words of your favourite tango songs in the shower/car. All the words are on the internet and once you have sung something yourself, no matter how badly, it is amazing how much more intimately you understand it.
>
Good suggestion. Something a bit more practical. Go grab a pair of
chopsticks or pencils, throw on your absolute favorite piece (doesn't
have to be tango, but something you know really well). Play it and tap
the rhythm out for one of the lines. Say play it once, doing the bass,
then once along with the melody, then another time with some other
instrument. After you feel comfy doing it with a piece you know by
heart, try it with a favorite tango. Try it 5 minutes a day for a week.
You'll like the result. Oh, you probably want to stick with something
easy initially, like di Sarli. If you start with Pugliese or Piazzolla
you'll get frustrated more likely than not.
For you musician types out there, a really simple way to stick a dance
together is to follow the structure of the music. So I have a basic
pattern for each subsection* and then vary that. Makes it a lot easier
to go with the music and so far the followers think it feels natural.
Just curious if anyone else does this. But then again, I'm such a
structuralist I can only sing atonal music by modulating every other
note... :o)
Cheers,
Jeff G
* Music geek stuff: Tango is written in ABA where each section is
usually also ternary (usually) binary. So ABA --> aba, cdc, aba for
example. Have some figure for each of the lower case letters.
