4300 Some people would complain if you hung them with a
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 01:35:19 -0500
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@donnay.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Some people would complain if you hung them with a
new rope...
To: tango-l@mit.edu
That's a beautiful saying from my stalwart Minnesota family. We
Minnesotans are
all very good at suffering, and very proud of our ability to withstand the
worst without complaint. Just look at our weather!
Well, I guess that was before some of us started dancing tango. I keep getting
asked by some of my students - leaders - how they can get out of dances
gracefully. It seems that once they get good - and I am proud to say I to turn
out great leaders - women are hounding them for dances. So much so, that they
have to hide or spend unusual amounts of time in the bathrooms in order to
avoid being rude.
Of course, my inclination is to tell them that before they started tango they
would have given their eye teeth to have such a problem, and they should just
be grateful to be in such demand, but they tell me this issue is ruining their
enjoyment of the dance. They would like me to ask followers to wait to be
asked.
I understand that some women can't afford as many lessons as it may
take to get
good at this dance. It is possible some feel that lessons are not so necessary
for followers. (I find that whole idea that a woman can be a good
follower in 3
months while it takes a leader a year to be total hogwash-it requires at least
as much work for followers, if not more). I definitely understand that a poor
follower can wreck a leader's bakc (I lead a lot, too) But leaving women who
are still working on their skills on the sidelines is not a good idea either.
If they stop coming to milongas because no one will dance with them,
what's the
point?
Of course, we also have a little problem of women only wanting to dance
with the
best leaders - whether or not they are at their level.
Any solutions?
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 13:03:03 +0000 (GMT)
From: Lucia <curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some people would complain if you hung them
with a new rope...
To: Lois Donnay <donnay@donnay.net>, tango-l@mit.edu
--- Lois Donnay <donnay@donnay.net> escribi?:
>
> ouR great leaders have to hide or spend unusual
amounts of time in the bathrooms in order to avoid
being rude.
> Any solutions?
The !great leaders! should be hard without being
rude...
Real men do dance only with whom they fancy..
Real tangueras entice men to fancy them...
Just like in life, there's no pity in Tango, just
read/listen to the song words...
Lucia ;->
Yahoo! Autos. M?s de 100 veh?culos vendidos por d?a.
?Qu? esper?s para vender el tuyo?
Hacelo ahora y ganate un premio de Yahoo!
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 07:46:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rick Jones <rwjones52@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some people would complain if you hung them
with a new rope...
To: tango-l@mit.edu
If you live in the U.S., and you have an interest in building a local tango community, then there may be some long-term benefit from dancing with some of those ladies who don't offer the short-term reward of an absolutely marvelous dance. You're helping develop more future dance partners.
It's just common sense that one of the keys to getting better in any endeavor that requires partners -- dancing, chess, raquet ball, boxing -- is to partake with someone who's above your current level.
If all the really good women dancers had hid out in the bathroom when I -- or any other male tango dancer -- was beginning, how would any of us have ever gotten better?
If you don't feel like dancing, there are nice ways to say it. ("I'm taking a break right now." "I promised so-and-so I'd dance the next tanda with her" "I don't really like dancing to Pugliese") But this notion of not dancing with people who are not at your level is, in the long-run, self-defeating at best, and really quite hypocritical.
Lucia <curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar> wrote:
--- Lois Donnay escribi???:
>
> ouR great leaders have to hide or spend unusual
amounts of time in the bathrooms in order to avoid
being rude.
> Any solutions?
The !great leaders! should be hard without being
rude...
Real men do dance only with whom they fancy..
Real tangueras entice men to fancy them...
Just like in life, there's no pity in Tango, just
read/listen to the song words...
Lucia ;->
Yahoo! Autos. M???s de 100 veh???culos vendidos por d???a.
???Qu??? esper???s para vender el tuyo?
Hacelo ahora y ganate un premio de Yahoo!
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 07:52:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some people would complain if you hung them
with a new rope...
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I really try to dance with as many different women as
I can when at a milonga or a festival. I don't care
whether they are beginners, or how old they are, or
what they look like. I hate the gender disparity
generally present, and have a lot of respect for those
women who end up sitting much more than they would
prefer.
I don't mind women asking me to dance; I'm actually
flattered. I will occasionally say no because;
1. I need a break.
2. I've already danced with her.
3. She doesn't dance my chosen style.
4. I've identified her as one of those who is not
interested in improvement of her dance skills.
5. I've identified her as one who will repeatedly
dance with leaders who show no regard for the rules of
floorcraft.
There is no real solution. Leaders should not be
afraid to say no, and in many cases, provide the
reason behind that decision. This should be done
graciously and politely, but without fear of being
viewed as "ungraceful". Even if one or two followers
take exception to a refusal, will their opinion color
the perceptions of the community as a whole? No.
Followers should not ask the same leader to dance more
than once a night, and realize that the best way to
get dances is to work on their skills, and show a lot
of appreciation (and even some praise), to the leaders
who ask them.
And use the cabaceo! When I find a woman's penetrating
gaze directed at me with a smile, I regard that as
just as much of a request as a verbal one, and find it
impossible to refuse (except for reasons listed
above). And I like it better when women use the
time-honored and trial-tested method of the cabaceo.
And leaders, even the great ones, should show a bit of
chivalry and dance with as many as they can, as much
as they can, without undue regard to appearance or
skill level, except where it would conflict with their
"rules" such as the ones I listed.
And ladies, please take note of number 5 above. I will
refuse requests, and not ask you to dance, if I've
seen you participate in gross violation of rules of
floorcraft.
There is no real solution, except the proper use of
etiquette, and being able to say no.
Michael Figart II, Houston Tx
Denver in two days!!!!!
--- Lois Donnay <donnay@donnay.net> wrote:
> That's a beautiful saying from my stalwart Minnesota
> family. We
> Minnesotans are
> all very good at suffering, and very proud of our
> ability to withstand the
> worst without complaint. Just look at our weather!
>
> Well, I guess that was before some of us started
> dancing tango. I keep getting
> asked by some of my students - leaders - how they
> can get out of dances
> gracefully. It seems that once they get good - and I
> am proud to say I to turn
> out great leaders - women are hounding them for
> dances. So much so, that they
> have to hide or spend unusual amounts of time in the
> bathrooms in order to
> avoid being rude.
>
> Of course, my inclination is to tell them that
> before they started tango they
> would have given their eye teeth to have such a
> problem, and they should just
> be grateful to be in such demand, but they tell me
> this issue is ruining their
> enjoyment of the dance. They would like me to ask
> followers to wait to be
> asked.
>
> I understand that some women can't afford as many
> lessons as it may
> take to get
> good at this dance. It is possible some feel that
> lessons are not so necessary
> for followers. (I find that whole idea that a woman
> can be a good
> follower in 3
> months while it takes a leader a year to be total
> hogwash-it requires at least
> as much work for followers, if not more). I
> definitely understand that a poor
> follower can wreck a leader's bakc (I lead a lot,
> too) But leaving women who
> are still working on their skills on the sidelines
> is not a good idea either.
> If they stop coming to milongas because no one will
> dance with them,
> what's the
> point?
>
> Of course, we also have a little problem of women
> only wanting to dance
> with the
> best leaders - whether or not they are at their
> level.
>
> Any solutions?
>
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
> believed to be clean.
>
>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 08:53:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: burl burl <burlq7@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some people would complain if you hung them
with a new rope...
To: tango-l@mit.edu
The charity dance seems to completely undermine the tango. I feel I should try to dance every dance (and if I could mannage it, every step) at the top of my game. It seems most disrespectful to the musicians (both live and long sense dead) to walk around to some of the finest music every written in an act of pity.
I mean, do you really have the nerve to dance to Mi Refuglio hoping that your partner will feel so greatful for it she won't ever leave the tango community?
Do you think recuerdo is just sort of background noise to help you fill up your wreck-room at the local high-school/dance-school with lonely dance hopefulls?
I would be disgusted if I knew someone was dancing with me at a milonga because they hoped to help me grow into a great dancer one day.
There is a sublime beauty in the tango, that I have yet to achieve in my dance, but I can see it and I can hear it and I wouldn't risk it for the sake of my dance community or even to be a good guy.
So I don't do the charity dance.
yours
Burleigh
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 09:09:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rick Jones <rwjones52@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some people would complain if you hung them
with a new rope...
To: tango-l@mit.edu
burl burl <burlq7@yahoo.com> wrote:I would be disgusted if I knew someone was dancing with me at a milonga because they hoped to help me grow into a great dancer one day.
Then why would any good dancer ever dance with a rank beginner -- or someone they deemed "less good" than them -- if not in some way to help them improve their dancing?
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 09:45:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dubravko Kakarigi <dubravko_2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some people would complain if you hung them
with a new rope...
To: tango-l@mit.edu
It is really interesting to read all these different views. But, are you all dancing just to improve your dancing or are you men also dancing to share the pleasure of dancing with your dancing partners?
I mean, unless a lady is a total beginner, I can always find ways to make sure that she enjoys the dance. We have this elderly woman in our group (she is in her late 70s probably and mabe even more) with whom I always dance at least one tanda. She says she can not dance with anybody else but she enjoys dancing with me. It is because my own improvement is only secondary when I dance. My primary goal is to enjoy the dance. And for that, it is really enough to walk well. And when I see a smile on her face, I am happy.
...dubravko
==================================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
==================================================
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 12:56:30 -0400
From: "TangoDC.com" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some people would complain if you hung them
with a new rope...
To: tango-L@mit.edu
> Of course, we also have a little problem of women only wanting to dance
> with the
> best leaders - whether or not they are at their level.
>
> Any solutions?
>
Rather than looking at the root of the problem, which will always be
part of the tango, perhaps we can think of what everyone can do to make
it better. In this case, the injured party is the hounded leader:
presuming this leader is a man, how can he have a better time himself,
and make sure he keeps showing up at the milongas?
In my experience, there are a few ways to save a dance that's going
poorly-- e.g., a dance with mismatched skill-levels. First, the leader
can slow things down, and focus all his attention on taking care of his
partner. This I find to be part of the "interior tango"-- the mental
attitude leaders and followers adopt, the mask, the pre-feminist theater
of it all. If a guy can be a knight and put the woman first, doing
everything in his power to keep her comfortable, things will usually
improve. And if you slow things down as a leader, you can try dancing
(perhaps more conservatively than usual) to the melody instead of the
rhythm, or to just one instrument, and so on. There are always mental
exercises available for those with active minds.
Leaders can also use a dance with a less-experienced partner as an
opportunity to practice core technique, and to see how solid they really
are. Inexperienced followers often make our backs ache because they
pull, anticipate, have no poise, hang on us, glue their heads to ours,
etc. Well, if you follow them down that slouching road and your back
aches, perhaps you're still more caterpillar than butterfly. If you can
insist on keeping your axis and so forth-- if you can maintain your own
comfort and technique, that is-- then the follower may just follow you
down That path instead. (And if she doesn't, consider it a challenge to
your disaster-control skills.) If the end-result is nothing more than a
follower realizing she's out of her league, at least it's something. Now
she knows what every leader out there has stomached a thousand times.
Then again, some followers (experienced ones) have naughty moods, and
will backlead with a vengeance. Leaders can use this as a "listening"
exercise, and see how well they can actually follow while pretending to
lead. It does, in the end, make you more creative, and it teaches you to
create moments in which the follower has more freedom than you do.
To take the long view, you can also consider this: If you know
inexperienced dancers are going to hound you, then start paying more
attention to the DJ, and decide what music is best for dancing with
partners of that level. Biagi milongas? Probably not. You could end up
deeply frustrated, seriously injured, or even bored. Something by Di
Sarli or Calo? Well, that's much better territory. If you're such a good
leader, you ought to take the lead in this department as well. (On that
note, I find that beginners have a great time dancing to Gotan and such.)
Similarly, a leader can decide to dance with (i.e., silently "work on")
a select move or number of moves, both for the follower's benefit and
for his. If a girl sucks at boleos, try leading them with different
"shapes," or altering the timing, or faking her out-- whatever it takes
to get her really following and you really leading. Or change embraces
when the song changes keys. Or see how well you can lead her ochos while
dancing your own. Or see if you can Stop artfully. If you run out of
ideas, you better not have any pride left either.
Finally, these hounded leaders, if they're so damn hounded, might
consider offering lessons. Teaching at a milonga is in bad taste; but if
you're a dancer in high demand, you should recognize the need and do
your part somewhere else. Then you have license to help dancers improve
directly. And if you can keep the prices low, so people (especially
young people) can afford your lessons, you'll soon find the problem not
such a problem after all.
These are all options that have worked for me, with varying degrees of
success. They have also malfunctioned with varying degrees of failure,
but I find there's always Something I can do (or attempt) that improves
the situation. When it's a lost cause, however, I find that being a
smoker helps tremendously, because then I can hide outside in the open,
rather than concealing myself in the bathroom. And if I've just had a
cigarette and don't want another, I find that starting a conversation
with an aggressive follower is a good way to solve the problem head-on.
If her idea was "bailemos," I'll raise the bet to "charlemos," and
either get to chat, or get her out of my way-- whichever option she
chooses. (Technique here? Just talk. If she asks you to dance, just say
"No thanks," and get right back to the conversation. If she insists,
tell her not to be rude. If you can't make small talk, learn.)
As an afterthought... Sometimes I simply want to dance open-embrace, and
will sit out the tandas that call for close embrace. But on occasion a
partner will want to dance close anyway. There are things you can do
even in these situations. They make this stuff called Cologne; and if
you put on just a little too much, you can burn your partner's nostrils
without even trying. If you carry a handkerchief (and every leader
should), you can take a little off as things progress... At any rate, I
don't think it a cruel method or anything, considering how many nights
I've spent dancing with a faceful of someone's hairspray, or with an
inexperienced drinker's champagne breath all up my nose. (Every leader
should also carry chewing gum: I recommend Orbit, because it tastes
great and lasts longer than everything else.)
In the end, this all boils down to a single axiom: A good leader has to
be a great troubleshooter. There are always going to be nights when it's
tedious to solve problems, and when you'd rather sit down or leave early
than compromise your own enjoyment. But if you can merely dance well
enough to turn down a hungry beginner, you ain't shit compared to
someone who can make it work.
Jake Spatz
Washington, DC
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 09:58:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some people would complain if you hung them
with a new rope...
To: Lois Donnay <donnay@donnay.net>, tango-l@mit.edu
So, would you tolerate "self appointed teachers" at your milonga? Your female students ASK the men to dance? And here I thought the "charming, face saving" custom known as the cabeceo was practiced at milongas.
Perhaps you should offer your students the option of attending a practica, where you would encourage verbal communication among "self appointed teachers". It would be a chance for the women to learn what it is they are doing, or not doing, that makes the men not want to dance with them.
I lived in the Midwest for a few years, near Madison, and in Superior, and know first hand that Midwesterners are known as polite people. It does not surprise me that the men don't want tell the women that they don't want to dance with them (but hiding in the bathroom?). Nevertheless, there is some misunderstanding in the social contract when the women approach the men and ask to dance, if the men are avoiding eye contact. How polite is that? Why do your men think that declining an offer to dance is rude? Being polite does not require that you always do what someone else wants you to do.
I happen to believe that the cabeceo is an extension of what people do all the time when interacting with other people. We have a tendency to look at people we are interested in. Conversely, if we don't want to interact with them, we avoid looking in their direction. As people get to know each other, the exchange of looks becomes more and more subtle. Maybe you should remind your female dancers of this most basic of human behaviors.
Back to the idea of a practica. I can tell you that if men who have spent a large amount of time, money, emotional, mental, and physical energy learning to do this dance competently have the opportunity to share what they have learned with women who are willing to accept input from someone who is not "the teacher", there is a good chance they will participate willingly. If on the other hand you insist that you are the only one who is "the teacher"... Good luck with getting the guys to show up.
In summary... Heighten the perceptiveness of the women instead of thinking you have to fix the men. Start a practica and encourage the free exchange of information.
P.S. The only place I see my posts without returns at the end of the lines is on TangoL. Trying to put the returns in manually is extremely onerous. Surely someone can write a patch to fix that display?
Lois Donnay <donnay@donnay.net> wrote:
That's a beautiful saying from my stalwart Minnesota family. We
Minnesotans are
all very good at suffering, and very proud of our ability to withstand the
worst without complaint. Just look at our weather!
Well, I guess that was before some of us started dancing tango. I keep getting
asked by some of my students - leaders - how they can get out of dances
gracefully. It seems that once they get good - and I am proud to say I to turn
out great leaders - women are hounding them for dances. So much so, that they
have to hide or spend unusual amounts of time in the bathrooms in order to
avoid being rude.
Of course, my inclination is to tell them that before they started tango they
would have given their eye teeth to have such a problem, and they should just
be grateful to be in such demand, but they tell me this issue is ruining their
enjoyment of the dance. They would like me to ask followers to wait to be
asked.
I understand that some women can't afford as many lessons as it may
take to get
good at this dance. It is possible some feel that lessons are not so necessary
for followers. (I find that whole idea that a woman can be a good
follower in 3
months while it takes a leader a year to be total hogwash-it requires at least
as much work for followers, if not more). I definitely understand that a poor
follower can wreck a leader's bakc (I lead a lot, too) But leaving women who
are still working on their skills on the sidelines is not a good idea either.
If they stop coming to milongas because no one will dance with them,
what's the
point?
Of course, we also have a little problem of women only wanting to dance
with the
best leaders - whether or not they are at their level.
Any solutions?
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
Ring'em or ping'em. Make PC-to-phone calls as low as 1?/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 10:09:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some people would complain if you hung them
with a new rope...
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Hello all,
Interesting thread Lois!
Hehehe. If it takes hiding in the bathroom to escape, it's not the guys who are being rude...
We had a thread in the past here discussing how the women say no and guys have to take it, but when the men say no the women are mortally insulted. A man is entirely within his right to avoid dancing with somebody, but it is understandable he doesn't want to cause a scene.
So how is a man to get out of dancing with ppl he doesn't enjoy dancing with?
Maybe a woman should say this - ladies we all know there are guys out there that you want to avoid at all costs. It's no different for the women! I know of at least two nutcases that some of my friends (who are not rock stars, by the way, in fact they are the opposite) try very very hard to avoid. Most women are not coocoo/ smelly/ unpleasant or whatever of course, but one can stand to dance with them only in moderation.
These same friends enjoy dancing with all kinds of women including a LOT of beginners, in fact they make our beginners feel like a million dollars and we think it's great. They just want to make their own decisions. In order to do that, they may need to be at the other end of the room while they catch their breath and survey the scene and decide what's next. If you want to look around a crowd but not meet any eyes for a minute, it's easier to do if you are not surrounded by them. Hiding in the bathroom on the other hand is definitely an emergency measure to avoid some people at the expense of opportunities for finding people you do want to dance with.
It is easier as a woman to stay in control of your evening, and it is something you learn after being a beginner and being manhandled and strapped to some trucks or forklifts. Then you learn to dive into your purse when somebody is making it impossible for you to avoid seeing them. If necessary you just say no. It can be hard to learn this. I have recently taken a beginner to the big city for her first time and my first priority, before getting the shoes on, was pointing out all the men I knew would ask her and that she should say no to. Several of them tried! As I knew they would, and I wish somebody had briefed me in my time...
Tine
Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@yahoo.com> wrote:
I really try to dance with as many different women as
I can when at a milonga or a festival. I don't care
whether they are beginners, or how old they are, or
what they look like. I hate the gender disparity
generally present, and have a lot of respect for those
women who end up sitting much more than they would
prefer.
I don't mind women asking me to dance; I'm actually
flattered. I will occasionally say no because;
1. I need a break.
2. I've already danced with her.
3. She doesn't dance my chosen style.
4. I've identified her as one of those who is not
interested in improvement of her dance skills.
5. I've identified her as one who will repeatedly
dance with leaders who show no regard for the rules of
floorcraft.
There is no real solution. Leaders should not be
afraid to say no, and in many cases, provide the
reason behind that decision. This should be done
graciously and politely, but without fear of being
viewed as "ungraceful". Even if one or two followers
take exception to a refusal, will their opinion color
the perceptions of the community as a whole? No.
Followers should not ask the same leader to dance more
than once a night, and realize that the best way to
get dances is to work on their skills, and show a lot
of appreciation (and even some praise), to the leaders
who ask them.
And use the cabaceo! When I find a woman's penetrating
gaze directed at me with a smile, I regard that as
just as much of a request as a verbal one, and find it
impossible to refuse (except for reasons listed
above). And I like it better when women use the
time-honored and trial-tested method of the cabaceo.
And leaders, even the great ones, should show a bit of
chivalry and dance with as many as they can, as much
as they can, without undue regard to appearance or
skill level, except where it would conflict with their
"rules" such as the ones I listed.
And ladies, please take note of number 5 above. I will
refuse requests, and not ask you to dance, if I've
seen you participate in gross violation of rules of
floorcraft.
There is no real solution, except the proper use of
etiquette, and being able to say no.
Michael Figart II, Houston Tx
Denver in two days!!!!!
--- Lois Donnay wrote:
> That's a beautiful saying from my stalwart Minnesota
> family. We
> Minnesotans are
> all very good at suffering, and very proud of our
> ability to withstand the
> worst without complaint. Just look at our weather!
>
> Well, I guess that was before some of us started
> dancing tango. I keep getting
> asked by some of my students - leaders - how they
> can get out of dances
> gracefully. It seems that once they get good - and I
> am proud to say I to turn
> out great leaders - women are hounding them for
> dances. So much so, that they
> have to hide or spend unusual amounts of time in the
> bathrooms in order to
> avoid being rude.
>
> Of course, my inclination is to tell them that
> before they started tango they
> would have given their eye teeth to have such a
> problem, and they should just
> be grateful to be in such demand, but they tell me
> this issue is ruining their
> enjoyment of the dance. They would like me to ask
> followers to wait to be
> asked.
>
> I understand that some women can't afford as many
> lessons as it may
> take to get
> good at this dance. It is possible some feel that
> lessons are not so necessary
> for followers. (I find that whole idea that a woman
> can be a good
> follower in 3
> months while it takes a leader a year to be total
> hogwash-it requires at least
> as much work for followers, if not more). I
> definitely understand that a poor
> follower can wreck a leader's bakc (I lead a lot,
> too) But leaving women who
> are still working on their skills on the sidelines
> is not a good idea either.
> If they stop coming to milongas because no one will
> dance with them,
> what's the
> point?
>
> Of course, we also have a little problem of women
> only wanting to dance
> with the
> best leaders - whether or not they are at their
> level.
>
> Any solutions?
>
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
> believed to be clean.
>
>
************************
www.yaletangoclub.org
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 10:37:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some people would complain if you hung them
with a new rope...
To: Lois Donnay <donnay@donnay.net>, tango-l@mit.edu
So, would you tolerate "self appointed teachers" at your milonga? Your female students ASK the men to dance? And here I thought the "charming, face saving" custom known as the cabeceo was practiced at milongas.
Perhaps you should offer your students the option of attending a practica, where you would encourage verbal communication among "self appointed teachers". It would be a chance for the women to learn what it is they are doing, or not doing, that makes the men not want to dance with them.
I lived in the Midwest for a few years, near Madison, and in Superior, and know first hand that Midwesterners are known as polite people. It does not surprise me that the men don't want tell the women that they don't want to dance with them (but hiding in the bathroom?). Nevertheless, there is some misunderstanding in the social contract when the women approach the men and ask to dance, if the men are avoiding eye contact. How polite is that? Why do your men think that declining an offer to dance is rude? Being polite does not require that you always do what someone else wants you to do.
I happen to believe that the cabeceo is an extension of what people do all the time when interacting with other people. We have a tendency to look at people we are interested in. Conversely, if we don't want to interact with them, we avoid looking in their direction. As people get to know each other, the exchange of looks becomes more and more subtle. Maybe you should remind your female dancers of this most basic of human behaviors.
Back to the idea of a practica. I can tell you that if men who have spent a large amount of time, money, emotional, mental, and physical energy learning to do this dance competently have the opportunity to share what they have learned with women who are willing to accept input from someone who is not "the teacher", there is a good chance they will participate willingly. If on the other hand you insist that you are the only one who is "the teacher"... Good luck with getting the guys to show up.
In summary... Heighten the perceptiveness of the women instead of thinking you have to fix the men. Start a practica and encourage the free exchange of information.
P.S. The only place I see my posts without returns at the end of the lines is on TangoL. Trying to put the returns in manually is extremely onerous. Surely someone can write a patch to fix that?
Lois Donnay <donnay@donnay.net> wrote:
That's a beautiful saying from my stalwart Minnesota family. We
Minnesotans are
all very good at suffering, and very proud of our ability to withstand the
worst without complaint. Just look at our weather!
Well, I guess that was before some of us started dancing tango. I keep getting
asked by some of my students - leaders - how they can get out of dances
gracefully. It seems that once they get good - and I am proud to say I to turn
out great leaders - women are hounding them for dances. So much so, that they
have to hide or spend unusual amounts of time in the bathrooms in order to
avoid being rude.
Of course, my inclination is to tell them that before they started tango they
would have given their eye teeth to have such a problem, and they should just
be grateful to be in such demand, but they tell me this issue is ruining their
enjoyment of the dance. They would like me to ask followers to wait to be
asked.
I understand that some women can't afford as many lessons as it may
take to get
good at this dance. It is possible some feel that lessons are not so necessary
for followers. (I find that whole idea that a woman can be a good
follower in 3
months while it takes a leader a year to be total hogwash-it requires at least
as much work for followers, if not more). I definitely understand that a poor
follower can wreck a leader's bakc (I lead a lot, too) But leaving women who
are still working on their skills on the sidelines is not a good idea either.
If they stop coming to milongas because no one will dance with them,
what's the
point?
Of course, we also have a little problem of women only wanting to dance
with the
best leaders - whether or not they are at their level.
Any solutions?
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
Feel free to call! Free PC-to-PC calls. Low rates on PC-to-Phone. Get Yahoo! Messenger with Voice
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 11:26:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some people would complain if you hung them
with a new rope...
Sean here. Lois has posed a good question about a
problem that plagues many communities. I have also
broached the subject previously. I wish I had a good
answer for her, but I don't.
I do know that part of the problem is the prevalent
fallacy (most recently spread by Rick) that women will
improve by dancing "with someone who's above your
current level." That may work for some women, but in
my experience, only for a small minority. The truth is
that a man who leads well makes a woman feel like she
can really dance. If she believes this illusion (and
who wouldn't?), then rather than work to improve her
dancing, she may blame the other men when something
goes wrong.
We do improve by practicing with those who are above
our current level, but practicing is very different
than dancing. In my experience, the women who most
frequently hound the best leads at milongas either
rarely attend practices, or if they do go, they "just
want to dance". That's fine too, they are free to
"just dance". But not with me.
A concrete example: One of the most important
technical skills for tango is balance. As an
experienced leader, I automatically adjust myself if
the woman missteps, so that she rarely goes out of
balance. If she does go out of balance, I am strong
enough to hold her up. The best way for a woman to
improve her balance is probably to work alone. But if
she must practice with a partner, she will learn a lot
more about her own balance by working with a man near
or even below her own level.
As for investing in the community, I expect a decent
return for my investment. I enjoy dancing with women
of all levels, as long as they are steadily improving.
If a woman has noticeably improved over a 3 month
period, then I will enjoy dancing with her, regardless
of her current level. But if a woman's dancing has not
changed in 3 months, I loose interest in dancing with
her. She is not giving anything back. It might be
another three months before I ask her again.
I don't know if or when the learning curve might level
out, but I do know women who have been dancing for 7
or 8 years who still improve noticeably with each
passing quarter. The same holds true for men.
Not everyone has the same drive to constantly improve
their dancing. The people who have reached their
personal "good enough" level enjoy their dancing, and
are valuable members of the community. But it is not
fair for them to expect to continue to dance with
their former peers who are driven to go further with
the dance. If they cannot enjoy dancing with other
people at their own level, then maybe they need to
reevaluate "good enough".
As for people who can't afford the cost to steadily
improve, I don't believe it for an instant. We all
make choices about how we spend our discretionary
income. Dancing is the first choice for some of us.
Others choose cable TV, a car less than 10 years old,
dining out, or other luxuries. That is fine too. But
it is not fair to expect to dance with people who are
so obsessed with the tango that they forgo those
luxuries in favor of steadily improving their dancing.
If you can't afford private lessons, but you can
afford cable TV, you have made your choice. I chose a
different path. You are still an essential member of
the tango community, and I really want you to come to
and enjoy the milongas. But our paths have diverged.
Please respect my choice: don't ask me to dance.
Sean
--- Rick Jones <rwjones52@yahoo.com> wrote:
It's just common sense that one of the keys to getting
better in any endeavor that requires partners --
dancing, chess, raquet ball, boxing --
is to partake with someone who's above your current
level.
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 06:45:34 -1200
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some people would complain if you hung them
with a new rope...
To: tango-l@mit.edu, <donnay@donnay.net>
Cc: tangomaniac@cavtel.net
It hasn't gotten to the point I have to hide in the men's
room. I doubt that will ever happen.
I dance with beginners. This list gives mixed messages on
how to help them. Should I just dance and say NOTHING or
should I proffer a hint like "relax?" If the woman is
pushing me off our alignment with a stiffly extended right
arm, I'll push it straight down or drape it over my shoulder
so she can't push me sideways off our centers. Sometimes,
she realizes she is suddenly dancing much better and
molinetes aren't as difficult. She may even comment that
it's easier to dance.
It would really be helpful if beginners would tell us 1) do
you want any verbal suggestions? or 2) do you want us make a
change in the embrace, e.g. holding your right hand
differently? or 3) say nothing.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is lessons. I respect a
beginner who is making an effort to get better, no matter
how long it takes. Then there are other dancers who just
stagnate. A good leader has gone through hell to get good.
Isn't it reasonable that he expects followers to make a
similiar effort?
Attitude and effort count for a lot. Quality is more
important than quantity. Connection is always more important
to me than figures. It took me a L-O-N-G time to learn that
lesson.
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Waiting for my monitor to explode
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 11:58:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rick Jones <rwjones52@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some people would complain if you hung them
with a new rope...
Sean,
That's the most convoluted logic I've ever read. It's staggering, even for this board.
If anyone is trying to improve at anything that is essentially a partner endeavor, interacting with someone who is better than they are is a classic, tried-and-true way to go about it. To differentiate between practice and dance is like arguing how many angels can tango on the head of a pin.
"Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com> wrote:I do know that part of the problem is the prevalent fallacy (most recently spread by Rick) that women will improve by dancing "with someone who's above your current level."
We do improve by practicing with those who are above our current level, but practicing is very different than dancing.
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 19:39:56 +0000 (GMT)
From: Lucia <curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some people would complain if you hung them
with a new rope...
To: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>, Tango-L
Sean,
I have already congratulated you on your write-up, in private.
As some chose to heap derision on it on the list, I wish to reiterate that I find your piece remarkable and thought provoking.
Lucia
"Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com> escribi?: Sean here. Lois has posed a good question about a
problem that plagues many communities. I have also
broached the subject previously. I wish I had a good
answer for her, but I don't.
I do know that part of the problem is the prevalent
fallacy (most recently spread by Rick) that women will
improve by dancing "with someone who's above your
current level." That may work for some women, but in
my experience, only for a small minority. The truth is
that a man who leads well makes a woman feel like she
can really dance. If she believes this illusion (and
who wouldn't?), then rather than work to improve her
dancing, she may blame the other men when something
goes wrong.
We do improve by practicing with those who are above
our current level, but practicing is very different
than dancing. In my experience, the women who most
frequently hound the best leads at milongas either
rarely attend practices, or if they do go, they "just
want to dance". That's fine too, they are free to
"just dance". But not with me.
A concrete example: One of the most important
technical skills for tango is balance. As an
experienced leader, I automatically adjust myself if
the woman missteps, so that she rarely goes out of
balance. If she does go out of balance, I am strong
enough to hold her up. The best way for a woman to
improve her balance is probably to work alone. But if
she must practice with a partner, she will learn a lot
more about her own balance by working with a man near
or even below her own level.
As for investing in the community, I expect a decent
return for my investment. I enjoy dancing with women
of all levels, as long as they are steadily improving.
If a woman has noticeably improved over a 3 month
period, then I will enjoy dancing with her, regardless
of her current level. But if a woman's dancing has not
changed in 3 months, I loose interest in dancing with
her. She is not giving anything back. It might be
another three months before I ask her again.
I don't know if or when the learning curve might level
out, but I do know women who have been dancing for 7
or 8 years who still improve noticeably with each
passing quarter. The same holds true for men.
Not everyone has the same drive to constantly improve
their dancing. The people who have reached their
personal "good enough" level enjoy their dancing, and
are valuable members of the community. But it is not
fair for them to expect to continue to dance with
their former peers who are driven to go further with
the dance. If they cannot enjoy dancing with other
people at their own level, then maybe they need to
reevaluate "good enough".
As for people who can't afford the cost to steadily
improve, I don't believe it for an instant. We all
make choices about how we spend our discretionary
income. Dancing is the first choice for some of us.
Others choose cable TV, a car less than 10 years old,
dining out, or other luxuries. That is fine too. But
it is not fair to expect to dance with people who are
so obsessed with the tango that they forgo those
luxuries in favor of steadily improving their dancing.
If you can't afford private lessons, but you can
afford cable TV, you have made your choice. I chose a
different path. You are still an essential member of
the tango community, and I really want you to come to
and enjoy the milongas. But our paths have diverged.
Please respect my choice: don't ask me to dance.
Sean
--- Rick Jones wrote:
It's just common sense that one of the keys to getting
better in any endeavor that requires partners --
dancing, chess, raquet ball, boxing --
is to partake with someone who's above your current
level.
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Yahoo! Autos. M?s de 100 veh?culos vendidos por d?a.
?Qu? esper?s para vender el tuyo?
Hacelo ahora y ganate un premio de Yahoo!
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 19:41:15 +0000
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Some people would complain if you hung them with
anew rope...
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Under ideal circumstances dancing tango should be desired by both partners,
who should have a total freedom of choice. You do not want anybody to feel
obligated to dance with you because the resulting tango will be a failed
one.
When those ideal circumstances prevail you can select a dancer of your same
dancing skills, to whom you feel attracted and with whom you have a great
communication and connection.
But... the instructors feel they have to dance with some of their students,
good dancers may be expected to dance with new comers to make the tango
group grow, or with visitors that drove 100 miles to come to their milonga,
etc, etc. At times because of these obligations good dancers lose interest
in certain milongas and avoid them.
It is good to keep some balance between having fun and doing some 'social'
work. Men should keep in mind that by dancing with beginner women their
leading skills and improvisation capacity will improve enormously as he has
to lead properly and compensate for her mistakes or misinterpretation of his
lead. Women also become better dancers as they become very experienced with
adjusting to any level of dancing skills.
Finally I agree with Sean, it is good, when possible, to divide your
activities into 'Practicas' where you can dance with everybody, discuss,
teach, learn, etc, and "Milongas' where you go dancing to have fun.
Regards, Sergio
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 16:09:28 -0400
From: "TangoDC.com" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some people would complain if you hung them
with a new rope...
To: tango-L@mit.edu
Dancing with a better partner is certainly a good way to improve. (I
don't think anyone is disputing the truth of that.) But so is dancing
with a beginner. It's very easy to lead a great partner to dance
gracefully, because that person can already dance; but it takes a lot of
skill (and no small amount of effort) to lead a beginner through a dance
without mistakes, let alone one in which she (the beginning follower)
feels not only confident, but graceful, musical, and so forth. Every
mediocrity at a milonga can get good moves out of the best chick there;
but only a real guapo can get nice ochos out of the worst.
I was once teaching a class on boleos, and one student was working with
my teaching partner. She's already done thousands of boleos, so the
response in her was ready-- and additionally primed by it being the
class subject. You could use the worst arm-pumping technique in the
world (rather than just stepping around her) and you'd probably get a
boleo out of her-- an ugly one, but she would do it. I broke them apart,
and had him practice with me-- and I'm an atrociously bad follower. He
could only get a boleo out of me if he used clean technique, because my
body won't do one otherwise. Well, he had me doing honest boleos, front
and back, with either leg, after a few minutes and a few tips. And there
was zero freestyle-swimming in the embrace. And I'm possibly worse than
a rank beginner, because I didn't even shave that day.
Now, that's a formal teaching context and not a milonga. But I think the
point is clear: If you want to refine your dancing, there's no sense in
avoiding beginners.
The same is true for the stud-hungry followers out there, who make
themselves an annoyance. True, it's awful to sit and wait. But to sit
and wait all night for a particular dancer (or class of dancer) is a
stupid move, especially if you didn't plan ahead and bring a good book
with you.
Jake Spatz
Washington, DC
Rick Jones wrote:
> If anyone is trying to improve at anything that is essentially a partner endeavor, interacting with someone who is better than they are is a classic, tried-and-true way to go about it.
>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 17:28:52 -0400
From: joanneprochaska@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some people would complain if you hung them
with a new rope...
To: tango-L@mit.edu
To Jake Spatz, Washington, DC
This is truly one of the most insightful postings from a leader that I have ever read here on the "list".
Jake is a man who knows how to see the glass "half full" instead of "half empty".
He does not run away from challenges because he sees them as opportunities to improve his skill.
THIS is a man with whom I would love to dance.
IMHO, he truly "gets" what tango is all about!
His words are those of someone who has many years of life experience (either in or out of tango). He sounds as if he has "evolved" in his relationship with the tango to have the desire to go even deeper than a goose-bumpy exhilirating tanda with the best follower in the place.
I agree that one can experience just as much "dance satisfaction" with a beginner as with someone who has been dancing 50 years......It all depends on how "deep" you let your spirit search for the essence of the tango at that moment in time.
Note: Because the postings on the list had gotten pretty wacky of late, I had been deleting all postings and even considered asking off the list. But the title of this thread caught my eye, and I am very glad that I read this particular post!
Joanne Pogros
Cleveland, Ohio
www.tangocleveland.com
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tue, 23 May 2006 12:56:30 -0400
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some people would complain if you hung them with a new rope...
> Of course, we also have a little problem of women only wanting to dance
> with the
> best leaders - whether or not they are at their level.
>
> Any solutions?
>
Rather than looking at the root of the problem, which will always be
part of the tango, perhaps we can think of what everyone can do to make
it better. In this case, the injured party is the hounded leader:
presuming this leader is a man, how can he have a better time himself,
and make sure he keeps showing up at the milongas?
In my experience, there are a few ways to save a dance that's going
poorly-- e.g., a dance with mismatched skill-levels. First, the leader
can slow things down, and focus all his attention on taking care of his
partner. This I find to be part of the "interior tango"-- the mental
attitude leaders and followers adopt, the mask, the pre-feminist theater
of it all. If a guy can be a knight and put the woman first, doing
everything in his power to keep her comfortable, things will usually
improve. And if you slow things down as a leader, you can try dancing
(perhaps more conservatively than usual) to the melody instead of the
rhythm, or to just one instrument, and so on. There are always mental
exercises available for those with active minds.
Leaders can also use a dance with a less-experienced partner as an
opportunity to practice core technique, and to see how solid they really
are. Inexperienced followers often make our backs ache because they
pull, anticipate, have no poise, hang on us, glue their heads to ours,
etc. Well, if you follow them down that slouching road and your back
aches, perhaps you're still more caterpillar than butterfly. If you can
insist on keeping your axis and so forth-- if you can maintain your own
comfort and technique, that is-- then the follower may just follow you
down That path instead. (And if she doesn't, consider it a challenge to
your disaster-control skills.) If the end-result is nothing more than a
follower realizing she's out of her league, at least it's something. Now
she knows what every leader out there has stomached a thousand times.
Then again, some followers (experienced ones) have naughty moods, and
will backlead with a vengeance. Leaders can use this as a "listening"
exercise, and see how well they can actually follow while pretending to
lead. It does, in the end, make you more creative, and it teaches you to
create moments in which the follower has more freedom than you do.
To take the long view, you can also consider this: If you know
inexperienced dancers are going to hound you, then start paying more
attention to the DJ, and decide what music is best for dancing with
partners of that level. Biagi milongas? Probably not. You could end up
deeply frustrated, seriously injured, or even bored. Something by Di
Sarli or Calo? Well, that's much better territory. If you're such a good
leader, you ought to take the lead in this department as well. (On that
note, I find that beginners have a great time dancing to Gotan and such.)
Similarly, a leader can decide to dance with (i.e., silently "work on")
a select move or number of moves, both for the follower's benefit and
for his. If a girl sucks at boleos, try leading them with different
"shapes," or altering the timing, or faking her out-- whatever it takes
to get her really following and you really leading. Or change embraces
when the song changes keys. Or see how well you can lead her ochos while
dancing your own. Or see if you can Stop artfully. If you run out of
ideas, you better not have any pride left either.
Finally, these hounded leaders, if they're so damn hounded, might
consider offering lessons. Teaching at a milonga is in bad taste; but if
you're a dancer in high demand, you should recognize the need and do
your part somewhere else. Then you have license to help dancers improve
directly. And if you can keep the prices low, so people (especially
young people) can afford your lessons, you'll soon find the problem not
such a problem after all.
These are all options that have worked for me, with varying degrees of
success. They have also malfunctioned with varying degrees of failure,
but I find there's always Something I can do (or attempt) that improves
the situation. When it's a lost cause, however, I find that being a
smoker helps tremendously, because then I can hide outside in the open,
rather than concealing myself in the bathroom. And if I've just had a
cigarette and don't want another, I find that starting a conversation
with an aggressive follower is a good way to solve the problem head-on.
If her idea was "bailemos," I'll raise the bet to "charlemos," and
either get to chat, or get her out of my way-- whichever option she
chooses. (Technique here? Just talk. If she asks you to dance, just say
"No thanks," and get right back to the conversation. If she insists,
tell her not to be rude. If you can't make small talk, learn.)
As an afterthought... Sometimes I simply want to dance open-embrace, and
will sit out the tandas that call for close embrace. But on occasion a
partner will want to dance close anyway. There are things you can do
even in these situations. They make this stuff called Cologne; and if
you put on just a little too much, you can burn your partner's nostrils
without even trying. If you carry a handkerchief (and every leader
should), you can take a little off as things progress... At any rate, I
don't think it a cruel method or anything, considering how many nights
I've spent dancing with a faceful of someone's hairspray, or with an
inexperienced drinker's champagne breath all up my nose. (Every leader
should also carry chewing gum: I recommend Orbit, because it tastes
great and lasts longer than everything else.)
In the end, this all boils down to a single axiom: A good leader has to
be a great troubleshooter. There are always going to be nights when it's
tedious to solve problems, and when you'd rather sit down or leave early
than compromise your own enjoyment. But if you can merely dance well
enough to turn down a hungry beginner, you ain't shit compared to
someone who can make it work.
Jake Spatz
Washington, DC
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 16:44:35 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some people would complain if you hung them
with a new rope...
To: spatz@tangoDC.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Once upon a time, I was at a milonga over in Illinois, where I occasionally
get asked to follow. I was sitting out, watching a good couple,
edumacating
myself, when all of a sudden, this hand was thrust in front of my field of
view. My eyes traveled up the silk clad arm, and it was this guy asking
me to dance. Being a polite Midwestern type I said yes, a dire mistake.
It was interesting, because at that point I resolved never, ever to do that
to a woman again (stick my hand where she has to see it), because I sort
of felt like a piece of meat. It wasn't me he wanted to dance with, it
wasn't
being desperate just to dance with *anyone* he wanted, it was the social
proof of "Look-at-me-I'm-so-serious-about-tango-I'm-dancing-with-a-guy" he
was after. I've never felt quite that used before.
Dancing with anyone, good or bad, dilletante or fanatic, is not an
entitlement.
Some nights I'm a good boy, and I dance 2 or 3 songs with every woman
who shows up, right down the line of tables. Other nights, I just
can't, and
hide behind my laptop.
IMO, when you stop taking instruction and going to practicas and just show
up for the milongas, you run a risk of ending up in the dilletante
pigeonhole,
and if you still expect to dance all night with the best partners, I
might put
you in the poseur category as well.
Christopher
TangoDC.com wrote:
> Dancing with a better partner is certainly a good way to improve. (I
> don't think anyone is disputing the truth of that.) But so is dancing
> with a beginner. It's very easy to lead a great partner to dance
> gracefully, because that person can already dance; but it takes a lot of
> skill (and no small amount of effort) to lead a beginner through a dance
> without mistakes, let alone one in which she (the beginning follower)
> feels not only confident, but graceful, musical, and so forth. Every
> mediocrity at a milonga can get good moves out of the best chick there;
> but only a real guapo can get nice ochos out of the worst.
>
> I was once teaching a class on boleos, and one student was working with
> my teaching partner. She's already done thousands of boleos, so the
> response in her was ready-- and additionally primed by it being the
> class subject. You could use the worst arm-pumping technique in the
> world (rather than just stepping around her) and you'd probably get a
> boleo out of her-- an ugly one, but she would do it. I broke them apart,
> and had him practice with me-- and I'm an atrociously bad follower. He
> could only get a boleo out of me if he used clean technique, because my
> body won't do one otherwise. Well, he had me doing honest boleos, front
> and back, with either leg, after a few minutes and a few tips. And there
> was zero freestyle-swimming in the embrace. And I'm possibly worse than
> a rank beginner, because I didn't even shave that day.
>
> Now, that's a formal teaching context and not a milonga. But I think the
> point is clear: If you want to refine your dancing, there's no sense in
> avoiding beginners.
>
> The same is true for the stud-hungry followers out there, who make
> themselves an annoyance. True, it's awful to sit and wait. But to sit
> and wait all night for a particular dancer (or class of dancer) is a
> stupid move, especially if you didn't plan ahead and bring a good book
> with you.
>
> Jake Spatz
> Washington, DC
>
>
> Rick Jones wrote:
>
>> If anyone is trying to improve at anything that is essentially a partner endeavor, interacting with someone who is better than they are is a classic, tried-and-true way to go about it.
>>
>>
>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 15:21:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: God <bailartangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some people would complain if you hung them
with a new rope...
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I've danced with Lois, many different styles, she's a superlative dancer. I'm
scratching my head, trying to figger out how learning to lead & follow might
be different. I'm sure the learning curves look different. I dunnoo... toss in
leading interesting moves, learning them, musiciality, navigation... I'm stumped...
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 17:22:34 -0600
From: "Chas Gale" <hotchango@msn.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some people would complain if you hung them
with anew rope...
To: "Tango-L" <tango-L@mit.edu>
God is stumped? Damn, this IS a difficult dance.
Dear God, does Howard be your name? Transport your deified ass to Denver (on
second thought, better make it your entire holy self), and I will show you
how learning to lead, and learning to follow, are entirely different, and
exactly the same. No charge for Supreme Beings.
Chas "Guiding the guiders." Gale
https://www.thetangohouse.com
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some people would complain if you hung them with anew
rope...
> I've danced with Lois, many different styles, she's a superlative dancer.
> I'm
> scratching my head, trying to figger out how learning to lead & follow
> might
> be different. I'm sure the learning curves look different. I dunnoo...
> toss in
> leading interesting moves, learning them, musiciality, navigation... I'm
> stumped...
>
>
>
> Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great
> rates starting at 1¢/min.
>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 01:09:02 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some people would complain if you hung them
with a new rope...
To: <tl2@chrisjj.com>, "Tango-L" <tango-l@mit.edu>
> Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
> > a man who leads well makes a woman feel like
> > she can really dance.
>
> Er yes. That's precisely what leading well is for.
>
> > If she believes this illusion
>
> Er no. The feeling the guy gives the girl is by definition tango reality,
Which reminds me:
last week I went to a smallish group lesson given by Oscar Mandagaran at a
private apartment. There were 3 male and 9 female students (which speaks for
itself, and stands for what it is like to be dancing in Japan). Moreover,
only one of the men was a resonably good dancer, but he and a second one out
of those three did not know how to navigate, which meant for us: either be
led through a very lame version of the moves being studied, or get led a
little better but be crashed into another couple at least once during per
minute, or both.
Every time Oscar said:"Ladies, find your partner !", all the ladies would
kind of hesitate in their end of the room, not very keen on pairing up...
(have never seen it that bad before).
And every time Oscar gave a little speech on how for every lesson a woman
takes, a man should take 3-5 lessons because it is so much more difficult
for a man to learn tango, the men kind of stood there with sagging
shoulders, giving Oscar a lopsided non-committal smile.
I was so put off by the whole experience that I needed several days break
from tango, and so far, my addiction is not pushing me to go.
I agree with tl2/ Chrisjj. And with what Michael said:
"Attitude and effort count for a lot. Quality is more
important than quantity. Connection is always more important
to me than figures. It took me a L-O-N-G time to learn that
lesson."
Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 09:41:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some people would complain if you hung them
with anew rope...
To: Tuan <tuan35@cox.net>, dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu, "'Tango-L'"
Dear Tuan:
I am glad that you like Molly Ivans book. I have known
her for a long time. She went to my high school in
Houston, Texas and is a native Houstonian. She is a
product of private school, not public school. Senator
Lloyd Bentson's sons, who I also know well, went to
the same private school, and she knows them. Come to
think of it, Jesse Jackson's children all went to
private high schools up East, so his kids are preppies
as well. Interesting how that works with "public"
people who are going to help represent the common
man...lol.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- Tuan <tuan35@cox.net> wrote:
> Dani,
>
> It's just a colorful colloquism. Molly Ivins has a
> wonderful book called
> "You Got to Dance with Them What Brung You."
>
> But before you log on to amazon.com, it's more about
> politics, than
> dancing.
>
> Tuan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tango-l-bounces@mit.edu
> [mailto:tango-l-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf
> Of Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~
> Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 8:52 PM
> To: Tango-L
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some people would complain if
> you hung them with
> anew rope...
>
>
> FAO whoever started this thread. Something's bugging
> me, and I have to
> address it...
>
> The correct verb is "hanged".
>
> A picture is hung;
> a donkey is well-hung, while...
> a man is hanged!
>
> Cheers,
> Dani
>
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 10:50:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lee Ilan <leeilan@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Some people would complain if you hung them
with a new rope...
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I suppose this is relevant if one aspires to behave or be treated as a "well behaved dog." Not the case for me or any of the other women I know.
Why knock switching roles if the leader and the follower enjoy it?
In general, the sexist "there's only one right way to do things" thread is getting pretty tired. The right way to do things is what works for the partners in the moment.
I do appreciate the discussion of eveyone's thoughts/expectations about who to dance with, and why, and when. Often I find no evidence of souch thoughtful choices. It seems that many people just dance with the folks they already know. Doesn't matter if others are beginners, experienced dancers, good followers, or bad.
In this respect, I find that the community of swing dancers is probably the 'friendliest.' The general attitude is to deliberately reach out to unfamiliar people, give the dance experience a try, and see what comes out of it. If it's not intriguing or enjoyable in some way, one doesn't have to do it again. The salsa world seems to be almost as bad (or perhaps worse?) than the tango scene in this respect. It's almost as if you need a reference from someone already known to your potential partner before being asked to dance. Too bad that the sense of adventure seems to be missing for many tangueros. Do others notice this as well? Or is it only an issue in New York?
Ciao,
Lee
--------
From: Lucia <curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] women leading
