4378 Surrender
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:06:00 +0000
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Surrender
To: tango-l@mit.edu
What follows is what I think tango is about, other people may have equally
acceptable different ideas.
Once we accept the fact that there is a masculine attitude in leading and a
feminine one in following we can discuss other subjects that are equally
important such as the concept of "Surrender" in tango dancing.
Remember men and women in tango are equal but they are different.
This "surrender" is required from both partners in traditional tango
dancing.
There could be confusion between "Submission" and "Surrender".
We own and retain our respective power in surrender in contrast to giving up
our power in submission.
Yielding and letting go of control in surrender is a high level capacity in
psychological development.
Trauma in early life may disrupt self development and create profound forms
of defensive control.
Such a woman or person, develop what is known as "demon lover complex" : has
a tendency to transfer the hatred to her present lover who reacts by making
her submissive and both developing a sado-masochistic relationship instead
of one of surrender.
Possession is followed by abuse and abandonment by the male onto whom the
woman has submitted all her own power.
In A.Tango the woman won't be able to surrender to her partner, the dance
and the music unless she can surrender to herself first.
To facilitate this the leader (usually a man) must clearly direct her,
support and protect her in the frame of his embrace.
If instead the man only controls the woman, she has two possible actions
that are not desirable:
she submits or she rebels ; she will never surrender.
As to the man executing steps that he has not automatically incorporated
into his unconscious brings an agenda on his part which interferes with his
ability to surrender to the connection.
Free floating attention allows the woman to be a receptive organ. She needs
to relinquish anticipation of the leaders moves.
The leader should be "in the moment" allowing free associations to flow from
the internal and unconscious life. Not inhibiting himself with controlled
thinking.
Summary:
It is not possible to allow the dance to proceed without relinquishing
conscious control and surrendering to the inner life of that creative
moment.
To be too conscious of the steps or the technique is to impede the process.
The conscious use of steps and technique should be reserved for the lessons
and the practice.
Best wishes, Sergio
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:46:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Surrender
Hola Sergio,
This is a great explanation. Finally I have the words
to express what I do not like about dancing with
certain women. I do not wish to dance with submissive
women. Equally, I do not wish to dance with women who
back lead. I want a partner who will surrender to my
lead without giving up her dignity. I want to dance
with a woman who is clearly present in the dance.
This is what I mean when I talk about active verses
passive women.
Muchas Gracias!
Sean
--- Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Summary:
It is not possible to allow the dance to proceed
without relinquishing conscious control and
surrendering to the inner life of that creative
moment.
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 02:36:54 -1200
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Surrender
To: Tango-L@Mit.Edu
Cc: tangomaniac@cavtel.net
Sergio wrote eloquently about surrender yesterday. I read
his message a few times because I got hung up on the word
"surrender."
He wrote "In A.Tango the woman won't be able to surrender to
her partner, the dance and the music unless she can
surrender to herself first." and "It is not possible to
allow the dance to proceed without relinquishing conscious
control and surrendering to the inner life of that creative
moment."
I understand what he means. However, I offer an alternate
expression, from my teacher, Joe. "Before we can embrace
others, we have to be able to embrace others."
Before we can accept another person's passion, we have to be
able to accept our own passion and be able to give that
passion to the other person. Without passion, you can't get
to the spiritual level of tango, which is the apotheosis of
my favorite tango expression:
4 legs
2 bodies
1 heart
I asked Joe "How will I know when I've arrived." He said
"You won't have to ask. You'll know!!
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Regretting I'll miss this month's NY all night milonga and
to dance with O. and N, the women who taught me what the
above expression means.
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 01:26:28 -0400
From: "Keith" <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Surrender
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Hi Sergio,
Youve been posting to TANGO-L for as long as Ive been reading, which is quite a few years. But every post you make is still like a breath of fresh air they clear away the fog of confusion that so many other posts seem to create.
Your latest post on Surrender is one or your best ever. Theres so much in there to think about that a copy is now pinned to my wall.
The subject is particularly relevant to me as I have a very strong-willed partner who is a fabulous dancer give her an audience and she dazzles. But, except on rare occasions, she doesnt allow herself to surrender during our social dancing.
I must admit that a concept I hadnt previously considered is that of the man also allowing himself to surrender. Perhaps Im dancing too consciously, trying too hard to please her to give her what I think she wants. As I say, a lot to think about.
Sergio, thanks again for your postings I hope you realise how much theyre appreciated.
Keith
>Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:06:00 +0000
>From: "Sergio Vandekier" sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
>Subject: [Tango-L] Surrender
>
>What follows is what I think tango is about, other people may have equally acceptable different ideas.
>
>Once we accept the fact that there is a masculine attitude in leading and a feminine one in following we can discuss other subjects that are equally important such as the concept of "Surrender" in tango dancing.
>
>Remember men and women in tango are equal but they are different.
>
>This "surrender" is required from both partners in traditional tango dancing.
>
>There could be confusion between "Submission" and "Surrender".
>
>We own and retain our respective power in surrender in contrast to giving up our power in submission.
>
>Yielding and letting go of control in surrender is a high level capacity in psychological development.
>
>Trauma in early life may disrupt self development and create profound forms of defensive control.
>
>Such a woman or person, develop what is known as "demon lover complex": has a tendency to transfer the hatred to her present lover who reacts by making her submissive and both developing a sado-masochistic relationship instead of one of surrender.
>
>Possession is followed by abuse and abandonment by the male onto whom the woman has submitted all her own power.
>
>In A.Tango the woman won't be able to surrender to her partner, the dance and the music unless she can surrender to herself first.
>
>To facilitate this the leader (usually a man) must clearly direct her, support and protect her in the frame of his embrace.
>
>If instead the man only controls the woman, she has two possible actions that are not desirable: she submits or she rebels; she will never surrender.
>
>As to the man executing steps that he has not automatically incorporated
>into his unconscious brings an agenda on his part which interferes with his ability to surrender to the connection.
>
>Free floating attention allows the woman to be a receptive organ. She needs to relinquish anticipation of the leaders moves.
>
>The leader should be "in the moment" allowing free associations to flow from the internal and unconscious life. Not inhibiting himself with controlled thinking.
>
>Summary:
>
>It is not possible to allow the dance to proceed without relinquishing conscious control and surrendering to the inner life of that creative moment.
>
>To be too conscious of the steps or the technique is to impede the process.
>
>The conscious use of steps and technique should be reserved for the lessons and the practice.
>
>Best wishes, Sergio
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 09:11:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Surrender
4 Possible Stages of learning:
1. Unconscious Incompetence
2. Conscious Incompetence
3. Conscious Competence
4. Unconscious Competence
>From Jakes post, I would say he is at stage 3. The
guys he describes as dancing with abandon would be at
stage one. They are not even remotely similar to the
idea of surrender expressed by Sergio. "The leader
should be "in the moment" allowing free associations
to flow from the internal and unconscious life. Not
inhibiting himself with controlled thinking."
At stage 4, all of your concerns will evaporate. I
never plan when I dance. I can?t imagine how a plan
could succeed, since there are so many uncontrollable
variables. The stage 4 man surrenders futile attempts
to control the future and gains the pure joy of living
in the moment. He is keenly aware and in control of
himself. He has no need for a plan. The music tells
him how and when to step. The floor tells him where to
step.
Summary: (Repeated from Sergio)
It is not possible to allow the dance to proceed
without relinquishing conscious control and
surrendering to the inner life of that creative
moment.
To be too conscious of the steps or the technique
is to impede the process.
The conscious use of steps and technique should
be reserved for the lessons and the practice.
Sean
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 19:36:40 +0200
From: Andy <andy.ungureanu@t-online.de>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Surrender
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Keith schrieb:
> Hi Sergio,
>
>
> Your latest post on ?Surrender? is one or your best ever.
I agree, but unfortunately such postings come once or twice a year.
In the mean time Sergio is busy to explain us how bright everything in
Argentina is, great beautyfull and gracious women, fine, responsible and
perfectly educated men, who always respect each other and of course the
women (in fact everybody respects everybody, everything is just fine).
If somebody happens to find a dark shadow, Sergio will eloquently
explain you that you have the wrong point of view, actually the shadow
is a specially bright place, you just have to learn to recognize it, you
are not obliged of course, you can do what you want, but if you want to
understand the culture you have to know why the Argentines regard this
shadow as bright ;-)
If you strip all this stuff down, some valuable information remains, for
this reason I keep reading his posts since many years. Deriks, Carlos
and others come and go, Sergio will never stop to reveal us the deep
truth of tango...
Andy
Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 20:03:11 +0000 (GMT)
From: Lucia <curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Surrender Tango - Good Mornin' Feminism!
To: Marcia Rock <Marcia.Rock@nyu.edu>, tango-l@mit.edu
Marcia Rock <Marcia.Rock@nyu.edu> escribi?:
> On the surface, the dance appears to be male dominated.
> Why then does tango attract so many independent women?
Because independent women prefer real men to weaklings, and Tango is one place where they can deal right with them...
Lucia ;->
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