2036 Taco Bell Tango
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 20:24:56 -0500
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Taco Bell Tango
" once danced wih someone who told me "That's not a tango step!". I told her
"I take risks. Do you?".
Alex
She responded " "No, I take lessons," she said."Why don't you?" - she
continued - " quite frankly I thought that we were going to dance tango "
"You know? real music, with great feeling, communication, musicality, the
real steps and moves...it is called tango, have you ever heard of it?
-And she walked away -
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 1:24 AM
Subject: [TANGO-L] Taco Bell Tango
> " once danced wih someone who told me "That's not a tango step!". I told
her
> "I take risks. Do you?".
>
> Alex
>
> She responded " "No, I take lessons," she said."Why don't you?" - she
> continued - " quite frankly I thought that we were going to dance tango "
>
> "You know? real music, with great feeling, communication, musicality, the
> real steps and moves...it is called tango, have you ever heard of it?
>
> -And she walked away -
>
>
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 1:24 AM
Subject: [TANGO-L] Taco Bell Tango
> " once danced wih someone who told me "That's not a tango step!". I told
her
> "I take risks. Do you?".
>
> Alex
>
> She responded " "No, I take lessons," she said."Why don't you?" - she
> continued - " quite frankly I thought that we were going to dance tango "
>
> "You know? real music, with great feeling, communication, musicality, the
> real steps and moves...it is called tango, have you ever heard of it?
>
> -And she walked away -
>
>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 12:50:02 -0500
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Taco Bell Tango II
"Bottom line, if I hear a pop song or anything that for whatever motive
compels me to tango, I do it for no other sophisticated reason than because
I feel it *inside* and I want to."
Alex
I congratulate you, I think that every person should dance the way he/she
likes. I believe in total freedom of expression.
Tango has a big heart and embraces everybody.
Tango is so rich that can be danced to any type of music, what changes is
the mood and the feeling, that is all.
I used to dance to country western music. Some of those melodies perfectly
lend themselves to dance either swing, cha-cha or if you dare even rumba to
the same song. I used to do that all the time changing from one to the other
in the middle of the song.
We have been patiently listening for days how some of you found that
classical tango music was old, outmoded, obsolete, the sound scratchy, of
poor quality,. How uninspiring the usual choreography was. We have read
about the promotion of dancers and teachers that dance "in a different way".
We have read silently how interesting it is to dance to "non tango music",
using "non tango steps" in a "non tango way".
I repeat I do not have anything against your sharing your own feelings,
likes, dislikes and experiences. It is enriching, I am sure that I can learn
"something" from my participating in this most interesting discussion.
So after a while we are having an amusing thread, I add two lines to it and
immediately I am accused of being intolerant.
We now discuss strange unknown episodes of revolvers held to somebody's head
and mention a police state, oppression in art, etc, etc. Ha! Ha!
By all means dance and feel as you please but let's allow everybody to
express his/hers feelings as well .
Having said that I am on my way to dance rock & roll to tango music, have
you ever tried it?
May everybody have freedom to dance the way he/she pleases.
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 19:37:03 -0500
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Taco Bell Tango III
" Even shut up about what they are allowed to call their dancing."
I do not wish to quote out of context but...
This is precisely the point that under certain circumstances I have some
doubts about; it was the only reason I added those two lines to Alex's
conversation with his imaginary partner. Expressing a dissapointment because
she expected something different.
A few years ago when I was evaluating "Teaching tango tapes" I run into some
that were being sold as "Argentine Tango".
They came from organizations of excellent reputation in the ballroom world.
I watched them but I could not recognize any traces of real Argentine Tango.
Some of my friends that had bought them were greatly disappointed.
Then recently we have discussed the subject of "different styles" in
Argentine tango. It was obvious that there was some degree of prevalent
ignorance about the differences and similarities in them.
This came up when people started to discuss that the real lead "comes from
the chest and you never lead with your hands" versus "you may lead with your
hands as well" or the tango walk, flat footed and straight versus to toe
first with some external rotation, etc. to mention a couple of items.
People that know only one style think that the other technique elements are
wrong because they do not realize that there are different tango styles
using a different approach all together.
We can in general terms distinguish at least between Stage and Social
dancing or Salon, Milonguero and Nuevo Tango.
Dance to any type of music, to classical danceable tango music, to
non-danceable tango music or to any of them. Use of a recognizable tango
choreography or utilization of a mixture coming from different sources such
as ballet, modern dances, American Tango, etc.
We have to evaluate the fact that being exposed to all these different
fashions could effect some degree of confusion in the beginner.
I accept anything of the above as a valid forms of dancing but 'I believe'
(I could be wrong) that it would be useful to advertise or announce the
events, workshops, milongas and teachers using the specific name in
reference to all the above stylistic possibilities.
So that a person will not be disappointed when after spending time and money
expecting to be taught "social classical tango" is faced with "alternative
tango" or the opposite.
What do you think?
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 00:08:02 -0800
From: Robert Hauk <robhauk@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject: Re: Taco Bell Tango III
Hey everybody,
Sergio is talking some good sense here. In my opinion the main reason
to talk about the differences in tango styles is to actually know the
differences, so we can make some sense of what we hear from teachers.
It is interesting to put the different styles into some kind of
historical context just because history is interesting to know. It all
goes wrong when someone starts to use knowledge about one style to try
to establish that style as the one true tango. As we should all know
there is, and probably never was one single true tango. Tango has such
tangled roots we will never completely unravel truth from myth.
Still it is important to understand different styles, we each have our
preferences. As we share this dance with each other this knowledge will
help us dance better with more partners. That is the reason to discuss
style.
The ocaisional pie fight can be fun but the endless back and forth on
this particular topic is worn out. We should spend the time dancing and
finding our own truth on the dance floor.
Thank you Sergio,
Robert
Sergio wrote:
> People that know only one style think that the other technique elements are
> wrong because they do not realize that there are different tango styles
> using a different approach all together.
>
> We can in general terms distinguish at least between Stage and Social
> dancing or Salon, Milonguero and Nuevo Tango.
> Dance to any type of music, to classical danceable tango music, to
> non-danceable tango music or to any of them. Use of a recognizable tango
> choreography or utilization of a mixture coming from different sources such
> as ballet, modern dances, American Tango, etc.
>
> We have to evaluate the fact that being exposed to all these different
> fashions could effect some degree of confusion in the beginner.
>
> I accept anything of the above as a valid forms of dancing but 'I believe'
> (I could be wrong) that it would be useful to advertise or announce the
> events, workshops, milongas and teachers using the specific name in
> reference to all the above stylistic possibilities.
>
> So that a person will not be disappointed when after spending time and money
> expecting to be taught "social classical tango" is faced with "alternative
> tango" or the opposite.
>
> What do you think?
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 10:35:48 -0000
From: Alex <alejandro.delmonte@NTLWORLD.COM>
Subject: Re: Taco Bell Tango III
Yes, Robert, let's spin on the dance floor, that's what counts in the end.
Besides, that we all are passionate about this dance is more important that
whether we sometimes disagree furiously on such and such. And strong
emotions are also very tango.
I also would like to add that I'm glad I'm part of this list. I'm learning a
lot in here too.
Best to all, Alex.
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 17:11:05 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Just two styles (was Taco Bell Tango III)
When I introduce tango to beginners I talk about two basic styles: open vs.
close embrace. I think this is natural classification, because it comes from
fundamental difference in lead-follow interaction and it influences the way
the beginner will be taught (patterns, 8CB being one of them vs. strides).
The other distinctions (specific steps, footwork) are more superficial, do
not matter as much to me and would be confusing to beginners. Music
(alternative vs. classic tango) does not and should not matter either.
Here is small re-post from TangoSprings list which elaborates a bit more.
On two styles of tango dance
I have read an article the other day, which argues that open, not
close embrace is authentic way to dance Argentine tango. I started
to think about it and the following is summary based on my personal
experience.
One can dance tango either in open or in close embrace. Both styles
share music and there is significant overlap in footwork, therefore
to uninitiated spectators they look very much similar. However these
are two entirely different dances from dancer perspective, the
fundamental difference being the lead.
Where in open embrace follower has to rely significantly on eyes,
intuition and significant pool of memorized steps (sequences), in
close embrace all she need to learn is to listen with her torso,
recognize slight shifts in balance and to step with confidence where
her torso is led. Hence the importance of eyes for open embrace to
see where his or her foot is as opposed to posture for close embrace
dance. To illustrate this importance observe how people dance in
open and in close embrace at next milonga. Open embrace eyes down,
close torso forward (better posture, by the way).
Since there are many sequenced steps in open embrace, it is less
musical not all sequences fit perfectly within huge variety music
phrases of tango songs.
Since close embrace dance is built on individual strides (not
sequences), leader can compose any sequences to fit any melody.
Moreover leader has wider variety of rhythmic steps in close embrace
(side shuffle is one of them with too subtle torso lead for open
embrace style).
There is nothing wrong with open embrace dance per se it is truly
beautiful in hands of masters. Because partners are further from
each other they can do flamboyant steps impossible in close embrace
(the reason why performance tango is usually done in open embrace).
However in my opinion, the style is less comfortable and more
difficult to learn and to dance to melody. Also there is usually no
room on dance floor for wide steps typical to open embrace
style. That's why I tend to classify open embrace style more as
performance dance and milonguero style as social dance. As any
generalizations this one is flawed: one can dance socially in open
embrace in spacious ballroom, and I have performed on stage in close
embrace style.
Which style is authentic Argentine tango? Even though I suspect both
were danced in the beginning based on floor limitations and partners
comfort, I truly don't care. I like close embrace more because it
more rhythmic (melodic), intimate and I enjoy tango more in close
embrace.
I know some of you have different perspective on close vs. open
embrace style. I do not claim that my point of view is the only correct
one (it is right for me) and would love to hear from you if you disagree.
Cheers, Oleh Kovalchuke
https://3clicksdesign.com/tango.htm
>From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
>Reply-To: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: [TANGO-L] Taco Bell Tango III
>Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 19:37:03 -0500
>
>" Even shut up about what they are allowed to call their dancing."
>
> I do not wish to quote out of context but...
>
>This is precisely the point that under certain circumstances I have some
>doubts about; it was the only reason I added those two lines to Alex's
>conversation with his imaginary partner. Expressing a dissapointment
>because
>she expected something different.
>
>A few years ago when I was evaluating "Teaching tango tapes" I run into
>some
>that were being sold as "Argentine Tango".
>They came from organizations of excellent reputation in the ballroom world.
>I watched them but I could not recognize any traces of real Argentine
>Tango.
>Some of my friends that had bought them were greatly disappointed.
>
>Then recently we have discussed the subject of "different styles" in
>Argentine tango. It was obvious that there was some degree of prevalent
>ignorance about the differences and similarities in them.
>
>This came up when people started to discuss that the real lead "comes from
>the chest and you never lead with your hands" versus "you may lead with
>your
>hands as well" or the tango walk, flat footed and straight versus to toe
>first with some external rotation, etc. to mention a couple of items.
>
>People that know only one style think that the other technique elements are
>wrong because they do not realize that there are different tango styles
>using a different approach all together.
>
> We can in general terms distinguish at least between Stage and Social
>dancing or Salon, Milonguero and Nuevo Tango.
>Dance to any type of music, to classical danceable tango music, to
>non-danceable tango music or to any of them. Use of a recognizable tango
>choreography or utilization of a mixture coming from different sources such
>as ballet, modern dances, American Tango, etc.
>
>We have to evaluate the fact that being exposed to all these different
>fashions could effect some degree of confusion in the beginner.
>
>I accept anything of the above as a valid forms of dancing but 'I believe'
>(I could be wrong) that it would be useful to advertise or announce the
>events, workshops, milongas and teachers using the specific name in
>reference to all the above stylistic possibilities.
>
>So that a person will not be disappointed when after spending time and
>money
>expecting to be taught "social classical tango" is faced with "alternative
>tango" or the opposite.
>
>What do you think?
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 07:25:14 EST
From: TimmyTango@AOL.COM
Subject: Taco Bell
We all dance the tango Differently, and that's good. If we all danced the
same, that would be boring.
Nito and Elba have their own style.
Carlos Gavito has his own distinct style
Only Nestor Ray dances like he did.
In the tango, it's not the steps we're dancing, but how we dance the steps.
Wether we dance salon, or Milonguero, or we're dancing slowly to the beat of
the music or dancing traspie, wether we're dancing to Tangos or Christmas
Carols. Isn't the tango the connection between two people and how they surrender
to each other and interact as one?
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 11:29:51 -0800
From: Carlos Rojas <Crojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Taco Bell
'TimmyTango@AOL.COM wrote:
"wether we're dancing to Tangos or Christmas Carols. Isn't the tango the
connection between two people and how they surrender to each other and
interact as one?"
TimmyTango,
The taco bell comment is not in regards to style or even music, it is in
regards to the mentality in the US to take something from another
culture, change it and then present it as authentic. Is even more
insulting when the change occurs because we don't take the time or the
effort to learn it well.
The music in social tango does need a tango rhythm, just like salsa
needs a salsa rhythm. But it does not matter (to me) whether is golden
age or contemporary, but it needs to be danceable. When it comes to a
private dance with your life partner or a performance, then it does not
matter (to me).
One aspect of Latin American culture that is not understood in the US
(in my experience), is that in Latin America we make a difference
between music for dancing and music for listening, sometimes we even
make a difference among music for eating, partying, drinking, romance,
family, listening and dancing.
I see many DJs playing music for listening at the milongas, and it just
kill the desire for dancing, dancing music needs to move you, and needs
to move the crowd.
As an example, I love Gardel, in fact my father named me after him, but
you will never see me dancing to a Gardel song, because it is not for
dancing, is to listen and to feel.
Carlos Rojas
Portland, OR
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 4:25 AM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] Taco Bell
We all dance the tango Differently, and that's good. If we all danced
the
same, that would be boring.
Nito and Elba have their own style.
Carlos Gavito has his own distinct style
Only Nestor Ray dances like he did.
In the tango, it's not the steps we're dancing, but how we dance the
steps.
Wether we dance salon, or Milonguero, or we're dancing slowly to the
beat of
the music or dancing traspie, wether we're dancing to Tangos or
Christmas
Carols. Isn't the tango the connection between two people and how they
surrender to each other and interact as one?
LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
