4083 talking tango
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 09:57:43 -0800
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: talking tango
Hola Aron,
I'm sorry, I didn't intend to offend you. I forgot
that this list is worldwide, and includes people from
many different cultures. Of course anyone who is
visiting a foreign culture should show respect for the
local customs. A donde fueres haz lo que vieres.
I know Anna's community very well. The consequences
you describe cannot happen there. In fact, I cannot
imagine those consequences occuring anywhere in the
US.
"... other dancers start to embargo her because of
what the teacher says afterwards ... Remember: if a
major player would decide to ruin the fun of a novice,
there is very little chance for anyone to stop him (or
her)."
Nobody here has that much influence.
The US is a very large and varied place, but the
serious tango dancers travel often. I have friends in
most if not all major tango communities. I can say
with athority that teaching at the milonga is not
acceptible behavior in the US. We call it "talking
tango". It is considered a sign of incompetance on the
part of the talker. The presumption is that a
competant dancer can communicate everything necessary
to the dance without speaking.
Lucia's comments echo everything that I've already
heard on the subject from Los Argentinos, so I think
it's fair to assume that teaching at the milonga is
not acceptible behavior in BA either.
As long as you are in Hungary, do what is done there.
But if you ever have the opportunity to travel to the
US or Argentina, I recommend that you learn to lead
without talking.
Sean
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 12:26:26 -0800
From: steve pastor <tang0man2005@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: talking tango
In general I am in favor of "rules". Rules help us know how to act in different situations. Sometimes, though, they can be counter productive. To me this "rule" of "no teaching at the milonga", when carried to its logical extreme, is analagous to declaring to a couple who have just been married, that they are now limited to non-verbal communication.
And, if you believe that you can communicate everything non-verbally, I would ask you to contemplate teaching someone to dance tango without speaking.
If I limit myself to dancing with well trained, experienced partners who are doing their part to make things work, I will never have to speak. Some of the women I've danced with for years, in spite of hearing the same thing from just about every instructor they have ever had, will not quite be there at times. (Often they will tell me that "the other guys" this, or "the other" guys that. Not the instructors!)
If Aron Escady speaks to me in Hungarian about anything other than the most basic concept, I will have no idea what he is saying, no matter how clearly he enunciates his words, or how loudly he speaks. I would very much appreciate it if he were to speak to me in English. Likewise, sometimes I speak to my partner with my body, and she just doesn't get.
I have danced whole tandas without any comments both at milongas and practicas, hoping that my partner would start giving me something back so that I could make things work. I sometimes note sad, disappointed expressions on their faces. And I know exactly why things aren't working. But, I follow the "rule", and I don't speak. Who, exactly, benefits from this situation? I would say no one does. So, I reject the absolutist notion that "there is no teaching at a milonga" - any comment is teaching - No exceptions - End of story.
I notice that most instructors, even the most expert, have an experienced partner with whom to demonstrate things. Picking someone at random from the class would be quite the test of skill, now wouldn't it?
And, please, those of you who are formally recognized as teachers, do not perpetuate the myth that if we are good enough we can always compensate for the inadequacies and mistakes of our partners. Although I am willing to sometimes do more that my share, you do a disservice to those of us who would like our partners to make an equal contribution to the dance.
And, as has already been written, we all have to be responsible for letting others know if their behavior is unwanted. Hopefully, this begins as something polite, becoming more direct and insistent only as necessary.
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Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 12:26:40 -0800
From: steve pastor <tang0man2005@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: talking tango
In general I am in favor of "rules". Rules help us know how to act in different situations. Sometimes, though, they can be counter productive. To me this "rule" of "no teaching at the milonga", when carried to its logical extreme, is analagous to declaring to a couple who have just been married, that they are now limited to non-verbal communication.
And, if you believe that you can communicate everything non-verbally, I would ask you to contemplate teaching someone to dance tango without speaking.
If I limit myself to dancing with well trained, experienced partners who are doing their part to make things work, I will never have to speak. Some of the women I've danced with for years, in spite of hearing the same thing from just about every instructor they have ever had, will not quite be there at times. (Often they will tell me that "the other guys" this, or "the other" guys that. Not the instructors!)
If Aron Escady speaks to me in Hungarian about anything other than the most basic concept, I will have no idea what he is saying, no matter how clearly he enunciates his words, or how loudly he speaks. I would very much appreciate it if he were to speak to me in English. Likewise, sometimes I speak to my partner with my body, and she just doesn't get.
I have danced whole tandas without any comments both at milongas and practicas, hoping that my partner would start giving me something back so that I could make things work. I sometimes note sad, disappointed expressions on their faces. And I know exactly why things aren't working. But, I follow the "rule", and I don't speak. Who, exactly, benefits from this situation? I would say no one does. So, I reject the absolutist notion that "there is no teaching at a milonga" - any comment is teaching - No exceptions - End of story.
I notice that most instructors, even the most expert, have an experienced partner with whom to demonstrate things. Picking someone at random from the class would be quite the test of skill, now wouldn't it?
And, please, those of you who are formally recognized as teachers, do not perpetuate the myth that if we are good enough we can always compensate for the inadequacies and mistakes of our partners. Although I am willing to sometimes do more that my share, you do a disservice to those of us who would like our partners to make an equal contribution to the dance.
And, as has already been written, we all have to be responsible for letting others know if their behavior is unwanted. Hopefully, this begins as something polite, becoming more direct and insistent only as necessary.
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Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 16:32:52 EST
From: Bill King <Euroking@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: talking tango
Good points re: absolutes, there is no room for absolute rules. Teaching at
a milonga is different in talking during dance, which is different than
compliments. Each of us is different and we each are looking for something
different when we dance, it may be similar but I, IMHO, believe each is different.
To me Tango is about sharing, it’s not about me or about you but about what
we can mutually can share, sometimes it is verbal and most of the time
non-verbal. Whether you’re a teacher or a beginner of somewhere else along the
continuum it is about sharing. It is not rules, sharing creates the unspoken rule
of the moment
I think a key reason, however, that teaching during a milonga is generally
frowned upon is because it has the tendency to affect others on the dance
floor, either through the speaking itself being disruptive or the potential for
interrupting the flow of the dance. I don't know about how others react, but I
start listening and analyzing when I am being taught. This means I lose my
sense of musicality (weak as it may be at times), this then in turn causes me
to forget that others are around me and it can cause problems. It is a
variation of the old Shakespearian issue for the want of a nail the war was lost.
Hence teaching at a milonga is not a good idea because of the effect on
others.
There are times when comments can and should be made and times when they
should not be made. I have danced follows who politely ask: "May I make a
comment?" or "Are open to a suggestion". To which I have the option. And I must say
I almost always say yes. Their response is but a comment and we dance on.
As for dancing with teachers, I do sometimes ask mine at a milonga and only
once a night. She does not teach, nor do I ask or want her to teach. What I
want and get is a partner that I know who knows what she is doing, is in
balance and not trying to anticipate my next move. I don't dance the patterns I
learn I try to move with the music and the flow of the floor. Occasionally, I
will surprise her either with timing or a step, and likewise she will do an
embellishment that I either did realize I led or expect. She sometimes will
make a comment but teaching is not the goal.
Just some thoughts
Bill
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 00:18:20 +0100
From: Aron ECSEDY <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: talking tango
> I know Anna's community very well. The consequences you
Something I didn't (couldn't) know.
> Nobody here has that much influence.
In smaller, more secluded communities in Central and Eastern Europe and even
some cities in Western Europe this is not a rare thing to have such
influence - including Hungary (I definitely do not refer to myself). To my
knowledge - based on previous discussions on Tango-L and some oral reports -
this did happen in some small US communities as well in the past.
> teaching at the milonga is not acceptible behavior in the US.
It is not considered polite here either.
> incompetance on the part of the talker. The presumption is
> that a competant dancer can communicate everything necessary
> to the dance without speaking.
Being a good professional and enjoying yourself is definitely not the same
issue. When I dance at a milonga I am trying to have fun. The comparison is
also flawed when we are talking about dancers with say 10-15 hours of tango
behind them (altogether in their lives - this usually also equals all
partner dancing done by them).
> assume that teaching at the milonga is not acceptible
> behavior in BA either.
I don't believe that social habits of BA are valid anywhere else in general.
However, I do know that in the US the authenticity is so important. Here,
tango dancers barely know where BA is and 6 out of 10 dancers will not know
who Firpo, Canaro, Troilo were, and cannot quote the name of one single
argentine master teacher/dancer. They are mostly interested in the dancing
and not the mythology (even though in the last few years I did everything in
my power to spread information on dancers, history, musicians as well as
everyday events around tango).
> As long as you are in Hungary, do what is done there.
> But if you ever have the opportunity to travel to the US or
> Argentina, I recommend that you learn to lead without talking.
We don't seem to be talking about the same things and you didn't seem to
read my last post carefully enough.
I wasn't approving a teacher or anyone holding a quasi-lesson on the floor.
Anna's post was not clear on this, but if someone is continously whispering
instructions to a followers ear that can be frustrating. However, saying a
few words to substitute "relax" is something else. Maybe your definition of
teaching is different, but to me this is still just communication to make
dancing more comfortable. You are right in the sense, that with a seasoned
follower you probably don't NEED to say anything, since she is going to
understand from what you communicate through your body. With a beginner,
that's way out of the question.
Cutting the long discussion short: Igor is right. If she indicates that she
doesn't want any more of his help, the problem is solved.
Cheers,
Aron
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 21:30:18 -0800
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: talking tango
Sean here.
Manuel is right. I over reacted on the teaching issue.
Bill is also right that I regressed into absolutes,
not to mention overgeneralization. I should have stuck
to the specific case, which was:
A man asked a woman to dance.
The woman accepted the dance.
The man stopped dancing and started teaching.
The woman became uncomfortable and probably angry
because the man had violated their social contract.
The man was either unaware of her discomfort
(incompetent) or didn't care about it (inconsiderate)
and continued to teach.
The woman became tense.
The man was either unaware that he was causing her
tension (incompetent) or didn't care (inconsiderate)
and continued to teach.
The woman's tension increased.
Stated this way, I hope it is clear that the man's
actions are inexcusable.
First, the man offered to dance and instead taught. In
other words, he lured her onto the floor with a false
promise. It's the old bait and switch routine.
Personal integrity is important to me. I despise those
who lie to get what they want.
Second, the man continued to teach even though it was
making the woman tense. He was not only inconsiderate
to her, but also to the next bunch of men who would
dance with her. I don't like people to make my
potential partners tense.
None of that explains why I overreacted and regressed
into overgeneralization and absolutes. Years ago, I
was severely injured when a group of people I trusted
found it safer to excuse a predator's bad behavior,
rather than stand with me. When people on the list
made excuses for Anna's teacher's obvious bad
behavior, it exposed those old wounds.
I apologize to Aron, who bore the brunt of my rant,
and to the rest of the list, who had to witness it. I
have recovered from that predator's frontal assault.
But it's hard to remain rational when you suddenly
discover that there are (still) six knives in your
back.
Chau,
Sean
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 22:50:36 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: talking tango
> First, the man offered to dance and instead taught. In
> other words, he lured her onto the floor with a false
> promise. It's the old bait and switch routine.
> Personal integrity is important to me. I despise those
> who lie to get what they want.
>
Sean,
this may not have been your conscious intention, but in this one paragraph
you have explained the problem entirely:
"...those who lie to get what they want"
Usually, it is the student who comes to the teacher because he/she wants to
be taught. Right? But in this case, it is the teacher who comes to a dancer
because he wants to teach, outside of the lesson time, even though the
dancer did not ask him to. How do you explain this? The dancer is not even
paying him. And anybody at teaching level should know that you watch a
dancer first before you ask him/her to dance, in order to know whether
dancing with this one would be a worthwhile experience or not.
Facit: Students are not there to feed the teacher's ego. Dancers are not to
be used by others to feed their own "better than thou"-complex. If a teacher
cannot leave his teacher's ego at home during a milonga, nor pick partners
he enjoys dancing with without complaining, so much for his skills and
manners as a social dancer.
Astrid's 2 cents
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 10:25:17 -0500
From: Jeff Gaynor <jjg@JQHOME.NET>
Subject: Re: talking tango
I think I will hop into this, just to play devil's advocate for a
minute. Again, I'm a novice at Tango, but have a lot of experience
teaching other things that seems to apply here.
It is possible the man was incompetent or inconsiderate but there is
another possibility too: Maybe the man was uncomfortable and trying,
however ineptly, to put himself at ease. Talking her through the moves
and being in teacher mode also might mean he was controlling the
situation in a way he was most comfortable with. since a teaching
situation has well-defined roles and interaction modes. I don't excuse
it and I think someone should do him a favor and whack him over the
head. I'll bet he was a lot less tense, right? Poor Anna though...
I've seen some otherwise extremely capable people get rattled for
whatever reason (might have nothing to do with you) and make a complete
hash of a situation they actually could have dealt with much simpler. I
don't know that this is what happened here, I say, but sometimes it is
good to remember this as a possibility. My earlier suggestion of pulling
him off to the side would have als defused this while making it clear he
was out of line.
(Again, I teach, among other things, self-defense, and learning how to
profile and deal with predators is a big part of it.) Sean -- sounds to
me like you have a lot of anger. If the predator was a real %$$@@# then
good, because anger can be more productive than despair. My experiences
in dealing with people like that are roughly that they have found it
successful to behave as they do. Yes, the people around them enable this
and cultivate it, as you found because everyone else bailed leaving you
in the lurch; this showed the baddie that whatever they were doing
worked great. The more reasonable one is, the weaker one seems and this
emboldens them. Moreover, a lot of times they have lousy self-esteem and
kindness/sympathy towards them demonstrates you are an idiot
(seriously), leaving you beneath contempt. This is why it is much better
to push back against these people almost immediately and -- hate to say
it -- getting badly burned is one of the best ways to keep this from
happening again. In the rather unfortunate case here, that didn't work,
so part of this is finding the balance. Hard to do it is. Even harder
over the internet where most of the visual and non-visual cues are
absent. So folks, Sean made his apology and you should understand what
happened from his perspective too. Generally I try to be slower to push
back electronically for this reason. Besides, if you do get an %$## on
the other end of your email, you can just send them to spam-land. Much
tidier than dealing with them in the parking lot. ;-)
Cheers,
Jeff
>Sean here.
>
>Manuel is right. I over reacted on the teaching issue.
>Bill is also right that I regressed into absolutes,
>not to mention overgeneralization. I should have stuck
>to the specific case, which was:
>
> A man asked a woman to dance.
> The woman accepted the dance.
> The man stopped dancing and started teaching.
> The woman became uncomfortable and probably angry
>because the man had violated their social contract.
> The man was either unaware of her discomfort
>(incompetent) or didn't care about it (inconsiderate)
>and continued to teach.
> The woman became tense.
> The man was either unaware that he was causing her
>tension (incompetent) or didn't care (inconsiderate)
>and continued to teach.
> The woman's tension increased.
>
>Stated this way, I hope it is clear that the man's
>actions are inexcusable.
>
>First, the man offered to dance and instead taught. In
>other words, he lured her onto the floor with a false
>promise. It's the old bait and switch routine.
>Personal integrity is important to me. I despise those
>who lie to get what they want.
>
>Second, the man continued to teach even though it was
>making the woman tense. He was not only inconsiderate
>to her, but also to the next bunch of men who would
>dance with her. I don't like people to make my
>potential partners tense.
>
>None of that explains why I overreacted and regressed
>into overgeneralization and absolutes. Years ago, I
>was severely injured when a group of people I trusted
>found it safer to excuse a predator's bad behavior,
>rather than stand with me. When people on the list
>made excuses for Anna's teacher's obvious bad
>behavior, it exposed those old wounds.
>
>I apologize to Aron, who bore the brunt of my rant,
>and to the rest of the list, who had to witness it. I
>have recovered from that predator's frontal assault.
>But it's hard to remain rational when you suddenly
>discover that there are (still) six knives in your
>back.
>
>Chau,
>
>Sean
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 16:56:00 +0000
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM>
Subject: Re: talking tango
Astrid wrote:
> anybody at teaching level should know [everyday dancer stuff]
Anyone at dancing level should know that's not the way teaching level works.
In social tango, to be a dancer one must meet the expectations of those who can dance. To
be a teacher one needs to meet only the expectations of those who cannot.
Chris
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 09:20:13 -0800
From: Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: talking tango
Chris wrote <<<<<<<In social tango, to be a dancer one
must meet the expectations of those who can dance. To
be a teacher one needs to meet only the expectations
of those who cannot.>>>>>>
I disagree; In social tango, there are countless
definitions (depending on who you ask) of "dancer",
and just as many different "expectations". While a
dancer might meet my expectations, would they meet
those of Pablo Veron?
And to be a teacher, one needs to meet the
expectations of those who CAN dance, as well as those
who cannot. I can dance, but I still study, and have
my expectations of those teachers with whom I study.
A teacher who pleases only those who cannot dance
won't be a teacher for long.
My two, ciao,
Michael from Houston
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 17:58:43 +0000
From: Lucia <curvasreales@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: talking tango - about unwelcome [teaching]
Many Tango dancers, as soon as having learned the basic moves, get the unsurmountable urge to teach others. Attempting to achieve social superiority, or to start a flirt, is in human nature and hard to resist, but in Tango these urges - on the dance floor, and for mere 3 minutes! - should be checked by one's own good manners, or, if perceived as unwelcome, by the recipient. Many female dancers are at a loss of how to check unwelcome attention masked as "goodness" especially if they are beginners and therefore in a submissive position. But women have their own mechanisms of deflecting unwanted flirts - they only have to think a bit harder of how to adapt these techniques to the dance floor...
Lucia
"Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM> escribis: Astrid wrote:
> anybody at teaching level should know [everyday dancer stuff]
Anyone at dancing level should know that's not the way teaching level works.
In social tango, to be a dancer one must meet the expectations of those who can dance. To
be a teacher one needs to meet only the expectations of those who cannot.
Chris
Abrm tu cuenta aqum
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 20:27:00 +0000
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM>
Subject: Re: talking tango
Michael
>> to be a dancer one must meet the expectations of those who can dance.
> I disagree; ... In social tango, there are countless definitions ... expectations.
Sure... and the assertion holds true for individually each definition and its corresponding set
of expectations.
> And to be a teacher, one needs to meet the expectations of those who CAN dance, as
> well as those who cannot.
That's self evidently false. A teacher needs to meet only the expectations of his/her pupils.
> I can dance, but I still study, and have my expectations of those teachers with whom I
> study.
All that means is: to be your teacher, one must meet certain expectations. No problem at
all. But it doesn't mean: "to be a teacher" one must meet your or any dancer's expectations.
> A teacher who pleases only those who cannot dance won't be a teacher for long.
On the contrary. As one explained to me "For every one who dances [tango] there are a
hundred who don't, so which gives the better chance of me earning a living?"
Further, your subclass "can dance, still study" is surely itself a minority. Most dancers do
not study. They simply dance.
Chris
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 21:19:00 +0000
From: Lucia <curvasreales@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: talking tango - about those roving teachers...
"Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM> escribis: Michael
> And to be a teacher, one needs to meet the expectations of those who CAN dance, as
> well as those who cannot.
That's self evidently false. A teacher needs to meet only the expectations of his/her pupils.
Chris:
Your last statement is an egregious misunderstanding of the teaching concept.
Students are in no position to dictate to a teacher, any teacher, to educate them according to their expectations, for the simple reason that they lack the knowledge, otherwise they wouldn't have come to the teacher in first place. What they have are impressions of knowledge, which may be totaly wrong. Think Tango Fantasia.
A real teacher educates according to his norms, which in a better world would be checked and reviewed by his/her peers. Think BsAs tango societies.
If you are talking about those Tango instructors who are roving the globe, teaching Stage Tango elements to the paying crowds who live in their own fantasyland, then you are right.
Lucia
Abrm tu cuenta aqum
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 16:45:10 EST
From: Bill King <Euroking@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: talking tango - about those roving teachers...
Lucia,
While I tend to agree with the basic ideas Chris stated, I do think your
comment on students being in" no position to dictate to a teacher", are true
except they can walk away. While I don't teach Tango, I do teach skiing.
Students that I am unable to connect with, do not come back and I lose revenue. I
learn to adjust to students needs and recognize each student has different
needs. A teacher you think is great and one that you learn much from might not
be very good for me, as I might have a different learning style or goals.
I know that I have changed my teaching style and rapport dramatically over
the years, and it really hasn't been because of peer review alone, although
that is a large part, at least as to technique. But the human factor and the
ability to deliver that knowledge needs to be based solely on your clientele.
Without connecting to them, a teacher’s impact on their sport or dance will
be, at best marginal.
Just some thoughts,
Bill
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 14:04:28 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: talking tango
Dear All:
I agree with Chris. Tango is fundamentally a social
skill. One should be able to dance tango with anyone
who walks in the door. Anti-social behavior is not
acceptable in tango.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> Chris wrote <<<<<<<In social tango, to be a dancer
> one
> must meet the expectations of those who can dance.
> To
> be a teacher one needs to meet only the expectations
> of those who cannot.>>>>>>
> I disagree; In social tango, there are countless
> definitions (depending on who you ask) of "dancer",
> and just as many different "expectations". While a
> dancer might meet my expectations, would they meet
> those of Pablo Veron?
> And to be a teacher, one needs to meet the
> expectations of those who CAN dance, as well as
> those
> who cannot. I can dance, but I still study, and have
> my expectations of those teachers with whom I study.
> A teacher who pleases only those who cannot dance
> won't be a teacher for long.
>
> My two, ciao,
>
> Michael from Houston
>
>
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 23:49:00 +0000
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM>
Subject: Re: talking tango - about those roving teachers...
Lucia wrote:
> Students ... lack the knowledge, otherwise they wouldn't have come to the teacher in
> first place.
I thought it was lack of confidence that drives students to teachers in the first place. Lack of
knowledge being a problem only after they've done sufficient "knowledge" classes to learn it.
> A real teacher educates according to his norms, which in a better world would be
> checked and reviewed by his/her peers.
Meanhile in the real world, the real teacher needs to pay the real rent.
Elsewhere the dancing goes on, oblivious...
Chris
