5804 TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 13:30:00 EDT
From: HBBOOGIE1@aol.com
Subject: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
To: tango-l@mit.edu
TANGO 2000 FOR DUMMIES
Lesson 1 Nuevo Tango
The challenge: Argentine Tango is forever changing and evolving and that?s
a good thing. I admire the younger generation for it?s Nuevo Tango and all
the work and effort they put into it however because of the nature of the
way Nuevo is danced it conflicts with the standard etiquette of traditional
social Tango. Perhaps no one has ever explained the rules but that doesn't
matter because the rules don't apply to Nuevo because of the way it?s
danced. So you see it?s a big problem that might not have a simple solution.
Let me explain a couple of rules just so you know what I'm talking about.
Tango is danced in a ?line of dance? counter clockwise around the outer
edge of the floor. On a crowded floor you can form another line of dance
inside the first one and even a third one if it?s really crowded so if you
were hanging from the ceiling like spider man looking down it would look like
a giant bulls eye. For those of us that like to stop and jump and spin and
kick we should first move to the middle of the bulls eye that way we don't
stop the line of dance and we don't injure anyone with our jumping and
kicking and everyone is happy.
These rules suck for Nuevo Tango?.no jumping spinning and kicking on a
crowded social dance floor. But hold on, I just saw that old dude leading a
boleo?what gives him the right to do it and not me? The experienced leader
will lead a soft low boleo he will pay attention to the line of dance he will
use his floor craft to lead figures that will not harm others on the floor
and he won't slow down the line of dance. Remember the nature of Nuevo
Tango is to spin at incredible high speeds stay in one spot for long periods
of time and lead the follower to kick at least as high as a Radio City
Rockette.
The Solution:
This is the hard part and I'm not sure I know the answer perhaps separate
milongas for Nuevo and Traditional is the only solution?
If anyone has any suggestions let the organizers know. If we talk about a
challenge we can find a solution.
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 11:21:07 -0700
From: Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
To: HBBOOGIE1@aol.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<cb8208d0910161121o79b25dc4n8f053114a360b0e9@mail.gmail.com>
Typically all I ever see is negative snide commentary and not very
much positive. We have rarely ever as any culture succeeded with
negativity. Just watch how we train animals.... positive
reinforcement.
THIS LIST seems incredibly rare with anything positive.
I hate negativity, got rid of my TV because of it, don't read
newspapers because of it and now this list just barrages me with it!
I would prefer to be a 'NUEVO DUMMY' that can and does teach the line
of dance, other courtesies that are unspoken and how men are bastards
to women with their sleezy tricks and touch ups that the vast majority
of come from 'milonguero's' and not 'nuevo's' or 'viruta' dancers.
BEGINNERS IN MOST THINGS ARE USELESS! Give them a chance and really
think back to how much you sucked when you started and maybe just
maybe, they were better than you then... And if the truth be known,
and you all posted videos of yourself, firstly, you would prefer not
to... too personal, not your style, but basically, most of you
probably don't dance very well either but wish you could.
Some of the teachers on this list don't necessarily dance very well
either - many of you think I don't and have publicly said that. There
is a dance teacher in Australia, a milonguero/salon style teacher,
Ross Clarke who publicly walked onto an empty dance floor whilst the
music is playing, pushed me in the back and told me to calm down
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l14bKC6H4tY). NOW THAT HAS NO MANNERS
AT ALL! ETIQUETTE should demand that probably don't hit him, I
didn't. ETIQUETTE should probably demand that he apologise, he never
did - at least every day I improve, practice and dance.
I really am tired of this list and have asked to be removed from it
before... Now I'm asking the entire list publicly like another person
just recently - please remove me from this list.
REMOVE ME PLEASE!
2009/10/16 <HBBOOGIE1@aol.com>
>
> TANGO 2000 FOR DUMMIES
>
> Lesson ?1 ? ?Nuevo Tango
>
> The challenge: Argentine Tango is forever ?changing and evolving and that?s
> a good thing. I admire the younger generation ?for it?s Nuevo Tango and all
> the work and effort they put into it however ?because of the nature of the
> way Nuevo is danced it conflicts with the standard ?etiquette of traditional
> social Tango. Perhaps no one has ever explained the ?rules but that doesn't
> matter because the rules don't apply to Nuevo because of ?the way it?s
> danced. So you see it?s a big problem that might not have a simple ?solution.
>
> Let me explain a couple of rules just so you know what I'm ?talking about.
>
> Tango is danced in a ?line of dance? counter clockwise ?around the outer
> edge of the floor. On a crowded floor you can form another line ?of dance
> inside the first one and even a third one if it?s really crowded so if ?you
> were hanging from the ceiling like spider man looking down it would look ?like
> a giant bulls eye. For those of us that like to stop and jump and spin and
> kick we should first move to the middle of the bulls eye that way we don't
> stop ?the line of dance and we don't injure anyone with our jumping and
> kicking and ?everyone is happy.
>
> These rules suck for Nuevo Tango?.no jumping spinning ?and kicking on a
> crowded social dance floor. But hold on, I just saw that old ?dude leading a
> boleo?what gives him the right to do it and not me? The ?experienced leader
> will lead a soft low boleo he will pay attention to the line ?of dance he will
> use his floor craft to lead figures that will not harm others ?on the floor
> and he won't slow down the line of dance. Remember the nature of ?Nuevo
> Tango is to spin at incredible high speeds stay in one spot for long ?periods
> of time and lead the follower to kick at least as high as a Radio City
> Rockette.
>
> The Solution:
> This is the hard part and I'm not sure I know ?the answer perhaps separate
> milongas for Nuevo and Traditional is the only ?solution?
> If anyone has any suggestions let the organizers know. If we talk ?about a
> challenge we can find a solution.
>
>
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 23:19:23 +0200
From: ECSEDY ?ron <aron@milonga.hu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@mit.edu>
David (and others),
David, I think you are very much stuck into your specific tango
environment, where what you understand to be 'nuevo' correlates with
crappy navigation skills. This is definitely not true to many, I risk
it, most 'nuevo' communities. Maybe there is an unqualified
teacher/organizer around, or maybe just too many people who don't accept
that there are actually others who think/dance otherwise...
I guess, if we would simply exchange 'nuevo dancers' with 'black people'
or 'gay people', then the idea of separating them for your comfort would
seem a whole lot more provocative, while in essence the reasons behind
the segregation would be the same: some people are different, and want
to be separated. In your youth both was everyday phenomena. People
thought that segregation was OK then. So if we separate we'll have
tanghettos? :) Then nuevo may really become a different style - with a
sidenote, that it would be the one to survive as tango. The younger
generation has a knack for it, and therefore they will bring 'nuevo' as
'tango' into the future without the possibility to be faced with the
'other' style. Not that it has any chance for happening: milonga
organizers are not stupid to shut out their future market...
All your recent posts convey the same, generalizing and generally
untrue, statement that 'nuevo' dancers are crap, and your posting style
is visibly offending many people (those who don't dance 'nuevo' also):
IMO this is not acceptable on an open list, it is the very same thing
that you so fervently criticize in the style of the 'nuevo dancers'.
Also, a tango mailing list is not supposed to be a community junkyard:
the reason for discussion is not to 'vent' frustration or to attack
people or groups of people, but to share experiences, or to discuss
certain views. Cold war methods of agitprop is NOT discussion.
As for the remarks about navigation at La Viruta by others: It is not
entirely the same crowd if you go on different days, or when different
DJs/orchestras are around. Also, most foreigners (at the beginning, me
too) did not understand those simple rules that have to be followed to
do just about anything without a bump in any size of crowd. Something
that was increasingly difficult for instance when the locals:foreigners
ratio changed during a CITA. Of course, it is maybe only my superb
navigation skills, but I don't think so...
Peace,
Aron
HBBOOGIE1@aol.com ?rta:
> TANGO 2000 FOR DUMMIES
>
> Lesson 1 Nuevo Tango
>
> The challenge: Argentine Tango is forever changing and evolving and that?s
> a good thing. I admire the younger generation for it?s Nuevo Tango and all
> the work and effort they put into it however because of the nature of the
> way Nuevo is danced it conflicts with the standard etiquette of traditional
> social Tango. Perhaps no one has ever explained the rules but that doesn't
> matter because the rules don't apply to Nuevo because of the way it?s
> danced. So you see it?s a big problem that might not have a simple solution.
>
> Let me explain a couple of rules just so you know what I'm talking about.
>
> Tango is danced in a ?line of dance? counter clockwise around the outer
> edge of the floor. On a crowded floor you can form another line of dance
> inside the first one and even a third one if it?s really crowded so if you
> were hanging from the ceiling like spider man looking down it would look like
> a giant bulls eye. For those of us that like to stop and jump and spin and
> kick we should first move to the middle of the bulls eye that way we don't
> stop the line of dance and we don't injure anyone with our jumping and
> kicking and everyone is happy.
>
> These rules suck for Nuevo Tango?.no jumping spinning and kicking on a
> crowded social dance floor. But hold on, I just saw that old dude leading a
> boleo?what gives him the right to do it and not me? The experienced leader
> will lead a soft low boleo he will pay attention to the line of dance he will
> use his floor craft to lead figures that will not harm others on the floor
> and he won't slow down the line of dance. Remember the nature of Nuevo
> Tango is to spin at incredible high speeds stay in one spot for long periods
> of time and lead the follower to kick at least as high as a Radio City
> Rockette.
>
> The Solution:
> This is the hard part and I'm not sure I know the answer perhaps separate
> milongas for Nuevo and Traditional is the only solution?
> If anyone has any suggestions let the organizers know. If we talk about a
> challenge we can find a solution.
>
>
>
--
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 20 66-36-006
https://www.milonga.hu/
https://www.holgyvalasz.hu/
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 08:59:48 +1100
From: Myk Dowling <politas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
HBBOOGIE1@aol.com wrote:
> The Solution:
> This is the hard part and I'm not sure I know the answer perhaps separate
> milongas for Nuevo and Traditional is the only solution?
> If anyone has any suggestions let the organizers know. If we talk about a
> challenge we can find a solution.
>
Most milongas we have here in Canberra are in the traditional style.
Last weekend, we had a "Nuevo Milonga", where all the music played was
modern tango music, with lots of electronica and fusion stuff.
There was a substantial overlap between attendees at this event and our
regular traditional-style milongas. The ronda was operating quite well,
with no more mishaps than usual.
Separate milongas is really not a solution to any problem I'm aware of.
Certainly not where I live.
Myk,
in Canberra
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 15:32:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sandhill Crane <grus.canadensis@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@mit.edu>
--- On Fri, 10/16/09, ECSEDY ?ron <aron@milonga.hu> wrote:
> David, I think you are very much stuck into your specific
> tango environment, where what you understand to be 'nuevo'
> correlates with crappy navigation skills. This is definitely
> not true to many, I risk it, most 'nuevo' communities.
> Maybe there is an unqualified teacher/organizer around,
The people who cause trouble at milongas with tango nuevo
stuff are often very skillful. They are not exactly
clueless, though they are certainly inconsiderate.
>>From what I can tell, their attitude is that they are
doing OK since they don't bump into anybody.
What they are failing to see is that they are still
causing trouble: by taking up more room than everybody
else, by not advancing in the line of dance (whirling
endlessly instead), and by charging into any open space.
I wouldn't mind (probably wouldn't even notice) if
people would do the tango nuevo stuff without being
disruptive, but there is an actual connection between
the "novedad" of tango nuevo and the disruption.
What's new is a particular analysis of steps:
not a new analysis of embrace, or music, or socializing,
but of steps. So naturally steps are emphasized --
big and flashy -- and naturally people who go in for
that don't find it important to consider what effect
they have on other people, except to avoid stepping
on them.
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 23:24:13 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>
I agree with:
> The people who cause trouble at milongas with tango nuevo
> stuff are often very skillful.
> ... they are still causing trouble: by taking up more room than everybody
> else, by not advancing in the line of dance ... and by charging into any open space.
This last, charging into any open space, is particularly disruptive, as it requires everyone else to pay more attention to which way they're going to dart next, detracting from paying attention to the music and our partners.
Don't know what the solution is. Ultimately I suspect it will come down to the responsibility of the milonga host/organizer to enforce whatever codes they choose to have at their events. In the old days, so it's said, community norms of floorcraft were enforced by the community, by boxing out offenders, or by "talking" to them in the back alley when more polite methods didn't work.
And at it's most fundamental level, I think it amounts to a difference in personal values. A person who values an intimate connection, who values a calm and orderly LOD, will always be at odds with a dancer who values impressing his partner with his creativity and variety at the expense of an orderly LOD. And of course there must also be followers who prefer to be impressed with footwork than to be held in an intimate embrace. One way of doing things isn't "right" vs. "wrong," they're just different. The challenge is to find some way for the two very different ways of dancing to coexist.
J
P.S. Just coming down off the "festival high" from the Portland TangoFest, having been pleasantly surprised that floorcraft this year was noticably better than in years past. Attendance was down slightly, so perhaps the less-crowded floor contributed, but for whatever reason, it was nice.
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Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 11:21:56 +1100
From: Roger Edgecombe <edgecombe_r@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Noughts wrote:
< I really am tired of this list and have asked to be removed from it
< before... Now I'm asking the entire list publicly like another person
< just recently - please remove me from this list.
< REMOVE ME PLEASE!
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Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 04:03:59 +0200
From: Ecsedy ?ron <aron@milonga.hu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>
Hello Jay,
>> ... they are still causing trouble: by taking up more room than everybody
>> else, by not advancing in the line of dance ... and by charging into any open space.
>>
>
> This last, charging into any open space, is particularly disruptive, as it requires everyone else to pay more attention to which way they're going to dart next, detracting from paying attention to the music and our partners.
>
Theeere we go then. I had that distinct impression that this might be
the problem. I think I've referred to it as well. This IMO is a very
Western phenomenon: you are frightened by their sudden moves, and they
are not really aware of their delta-v or the 'flow' of their movements.
To elaborate on this: If you have ever stood in a line at a supermarket
in BsAs, you'll know that those guys have no sense of 'personal space'
as we know it. In essence, personal space under their understanding is
restricted to the volume your body actually fills and not a millimeter
more. This has two profound secondary effects: 1) foreigners mostly
cannot take this, they're scared shitless when someone passes close, it
feels threatening to many of them 2) portenos usually don't use high
delta-v (they might be fast, but the acceleration is nothing I am used
to, they also seem to be irritated by that). The first one is something
that you can get used to. My partner had problems with it outside the
dance floor. After two weeks I was quite happy with it as it was obvious
that locals DO go for open spaces. Actually, this is the way to move
fast through a huge crowd on the street without problems. They do that,
but they also slow down when space is scarce, OR if with slightly
squeezing in or with a 'permiso' they can make space, they will. As for
the second problem it is quite obvious from how portenos drive: during
my stays I've never seen anything resembling the sudden and agressive
overtakings so natural around our parts, especially in Hungary. They
simply know that if they do that could mean a certain accident. As I see
it, right of way goes to people whom are more forward (so they can't see
you directly, but you can see them - sensible), who have large cars
(also sensible in a way) or those who approach a lot faster (happens
mainly when a line is standing, with the other moving a lot faster -
probably the only occasion they look into a sidemirror - very sensible
again). These rules appear to work on the dancefloor as well and you
don't seem to need more. Minor planning range is needed but for that you
only need to communicate your intention of direction and speed.
Admittedly, this is something that may be missing from some nuevo
enthusiasts.
The concept also includes disregarding a lot of rules you take for
granted. For instance: changing 'lanes' (in BsAs nobody is observing the
lanes painted on the road, and use 8 lanes on a 6 lane road) without
indicator lights, when someone is RIGHT beside you is completely
acceptable. In ANY Western country you would be pulled out of your car
by the next red light and beaten up on the spot for 'trying to kill' the
driver. In Hungary, they wouldn't even wait for the red light, you'd
pushed down from the road before, and the other driver, father of two,
would kick your teeth in... In general, their customs are malleable,
while Western cultures use rules that are not. Sometimes, breaking a
rule in Europe that has no impact on anything (not even more than a
passing witness) is punished. Customs are only customs. If you break
them it is not the end of the world...
If you can overcome your fear of couples speeding and trusting them to
avoid you, you'll feel absolutely comfortable. It is a scentific fact,
that in Western societies most people are raised with a very poor
experience in what is called limbic resonance (the reason why having a
shrink is a commonplace today). That comes with the relatively crappy
ability to react to body language and motion clues, therefore
overreaction to any ambigous stimulus - such as speeding youngsters
(note: your limbic system is the key to all non-verbalizable, emotional
communication, and limbic effects are inherently non-conscious and
cannot be made conscious which is a feature not a bug). Obviously, you
need to train yourself to be less jumpy. Also, youngsters should be
taught that they should be communicating their long term lane of
movement more efficiently to allow planning for you.
Cheers,
Aron
--
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 20 66-36-006
https://www.milonga.hu/
https://www.holgyvalasz.hu/
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Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 20:44:29 -0700
From: "Anton Stanley" <anton@alidas.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
I'm afraid there's hardly a sentence in your last post which I find
agreeable Aron. Maybe the behavioural and psychological sciences differ in
our worlds. But the bottom line seems that you have difficulties accepting
that differing conclusions can be arrived at from the same experience. Your
BsAs example leaves me somewhat perplexed. I understood you were inferring
that BA people, due to their conditioning would feel more comfortable with
erratic space stealing dancers than those in most Western civilizations. By
"stealing" I mean charging into the free space ahead of you, which you had
begun to move into. My experience In BA would suggest they don't like it any
more than most Western dancers. If as you suggest that the fear of collision
is a western trait, then how come so many westerners indulge in extravagant
dancing with seemingly no stress related injuries. Obviously undue concern
about collision isn't an inherent trait. I believe that the only reason we
are discussing these issues, is not born out of bigotry or discrimination,
but simply because the number of people preferring to dance tango
extravagantly has grown to the point where many other dancers do not enjoy
them on the dance floor beside them. The question that begs an answer I
believe is why traditionalist are willing to examine the concept of
different milongas while it appears that non-traditionalists are not.
Anton
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 16:00:09 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>
Ecsedy Aron,
Interesting that you "read between the lines" and conclude that my point had to do with fear of invasion of personal space. I believe that's an incorrect conclusion.
While your comments about the cultural differences in space management
whether on the highways or the dancefloors between Argentina and other
parts of the world is right on, observations I've made myself, they are
not the central issue here.
The central issue is that I want to enjoy my partner and the music. I
don't want to have to dance overly defensively. I want my movements to
be a smooth choreography with the music and the movement of the couples near to me. I
want to protect my partner from injury or the embarrassment of her
causing injury if someone darts in front of her after I've led her to
step. I can't do either of these things well when the leader near me is
darting in and out of every open space, whether it's in his lane or in
front of or behind me in my lane.
Hope that clarifies.
J
> >> ... they are still causing trouble: by taking up more room than everybody
> >> else, by not advancing in the line of dance ... and by charging into any open space.
> >
> > This last, charging into any open space, is particularly disruptive, as it requires everyone else to pay more attention to which way they're going to dart next, detracting from paying attention to the music and our partners.
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Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 20:47:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
To: Ecsedy ?ron <aron@milonga.hu>, Tango-L <TANGO-L@mit.edu>
> From: Ecsedy ?ron <aron@milonga.hu>
> >?
> Theeere we go then. I had that distinct impression that this might be
> the problem. I think I've referred to it as well. This IMO is a very
> Western phenomenon: you are frightened by their sudden moves, and they
> are not really aware of their delta-v or the 'flow' of their movements.
>
> To elaborate on this .....
>
Aron, whilst I admire your tenacity, for how much longer can you continue
to find excuses for Nuevo dancers. You seem think that, provided they don't
actually physically?hit us, they're doing nothing wrong. And if some of us are
mentally disturbed by their antics, that's our fault for not learning to adapt.
It's like the old mothers' saying - "look, all the soldiers are out of step, except
my son".
I have absolutely nothing against Nuevo dancers, or Ballroom tango dancers,
but I just don't want to dance on the same floor. For me, dancing Tango is ALL
about 'feeling' and I don't want to be disturbed mentally. IMHO, a continuous
mental disturbance is far, far?worse than the occasional physical bump,
If it's a traditional milonga, everyone should respect that - just as they do in
BsAs, where they have separate 'practicas' for Nuevo dancers, Separation
is the simple answer to the problem.
Btw, congratulations on your successful festival in the beautiful city of Budapest.
Jack.
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 10:55:36 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
To: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Jack Dylan wrote:
> I have absolutely nothing against Nuevo dancers, or Ballroom tango dancers,
> but I just don't want to dance on the same floor.
Thank you for putting everyone in the same bag again. So, nuevo dancers are
all poor navigators and/or intrude on everyone's space again today?
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 03:29:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
> From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
>
> Thank you for putting everyone in the same bag again. So, nuevo dancers are
> all poor navigators and/or intrude on everyone's space again today?
>
Please don't put words in my mouth because I definitely didn't say that.
I really don't care how good the Nuevo dancers are, or how good their
navigation is or whether or not?they intrude into anyone's physical space.
As I thought I said; the disturbance I most object to?is mental, not physical.
It could be Chicho for all I care. I still wouldn't want to share the dance floor
with him - unless he danced traditional Tango, which I suspect he probably
would if he was attending a traditional milonga.
All we're asking is that you respect the spirit, tradition, codes?and character
of the milonga you're attending. Is that really too much to ask?
Jack
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 22:08:42 +1100
From: "Vince Bagusauskas" <vytis@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES (Australia)
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Myk in Canberra said:
>Separate milongas is really not a solution to any problem I'm aware of.
>Certainly not where I live.
I have to agree.
In my 8 months in Melbourne, I would say a third of the classes over the 4
or 5 schools cater for nuevo students at the intermediate/advanced level.
Most of the tango dancers do nuevo at milongas. There is at least one well
patronised Saturday milonga that advertises to play a mix of nuevo with
traditional stuff. The popular Sunday practica (jeez we even had a couple
dancing with a baby in arms today! :-) ) always has a splash of weird nuevo
music. Even the wonderfully eclectic Martin plays nuevo after midnight at
the Thursday milonga.
In Canberra, the two biggest tango schools teach nuevo styles and have nuevo
practicas, including a lot of alternative music. From what I understand,
the latest nuevo milonga was as a result of dissatisfaction in the musical
direction at the older tango venues and from my reports Myk, the numbers
were higher than what the older venues have been able to attract of late.
Why the schism? Can't they cater for all tastes as they do in Melbourne?
When I was living in Canberra, I was told by women how the some men were
predictable in their dancing. In Melbourne, I have heard similar. Also,
better men (in my eyes) are tagged as being minimalistic in their style or
are known to repeat the same steps over and over. Does this mean that women
can get bored and want the diversity of nuevo steps? From what I have heard
yes: they want interesting combinations and musicality too, and not just to
traditional tango: if the guys are up to it.
However, even if there was no nuevo music ever played again in Melbourne,
nuevo would still be danced at each and every milonga as this is what
happens now. I believe this is what tango dancers in Australia really want
and the idea that a milonga can replicate what happened in BsAs in the 1940's
has truly had it's used by date. Laughingly, I have also heard 1st hand
from certain organisers that nuevo is not danced in BsAs, from people who
have been there. Really?!!!
This nonsense that only nuevo dancers are rude is hogwash. Even those
dancers who I would say do strictly salon style dancers and do it very well,
I have seen only recently dominate the dance floor, darting in and out of
the line of dance with big showy steps. Frankly I find that more annoying
than the nuevo dancers "showboating" as you expect that. But not enough to
lose any sleep over. But I sot of can understand why some men can have
their ego rubbed the wrong way seeing such displays and then want to tell
the dancers off.
Finally, there is nothing particularly hard about getting off this list.
When I was still getting the daily emails, there always a link on how to
unsubscribe from the list. It only took basic navigation skills to change
my reading preferences.
Thanks to the reader who alerted me to this latest thread to give my 2cents
worth.
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 14:43:32 +0200
From: Ecsedy ?ron <aron@milonga.hu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>
I am happy for your responses. I DO AGREE with ALL of you in almost all
aspects, except complete separation of MILONGAS.
Maybe this medium of e-mail is not sufficient or I am not adept at using
it, or it is simply my lack of native English skills.
- yes I do agree that it is WRONG if ANY dancer scares puts you on the
defensive, however, there must be a limit what you consider your own
space. With my BsAs example I was only showing that this is very
subjective. I did not propose a certain amount, only awareness of
different norms in an international environment (and that also includes:
a Swede and a Greek will have different sense of personal space too) -
this list IS international environment.
- yes I do agree that ALL dancers should be aware of the REACTION of
others to their own movements, and to be aware of the 'danger' others'
movements pose to them
- I do agree that milongas should be a COMMON venture, where all dancers
can dance together without annoying each other
- I do BELIEVE that nuevo should not be used as an excuse to dance
offensively
- I do KNOW that many, if not most, nuevo dancers (perhaps not in your
community, but in many other places - my samping area is mostly Europe
and BsAs) are aware of this and dance accordingly when NEEDED
- As for Chicho dancing socially: he is dancing his style - named nuevo
by most - still then, but (as I tried to express myself in the previous
posts) that does NOT imply that he is going to kick your head off while
slamming into you in the clockwise direction (which considering his
structure and top speed would not just be dangerous, but outright
lethal), he is merely using his style and technique to dance small and
'social'. All dancers in the 'nuevo' lot you mentioned from Arce, Chicho
etc. consider themselves mainly social dancers as I was made aware in no
uncertain terms when I asked them to perform on stage (they did accept,
but they weren't so happy about it).
- nevertheless I do NOT believe that separation of milongas could be an
answer to anything (except the possible annihilation of a style you are
protecting), as for practicas, they are not more than a class without a
teacher, so they immediately imply a certain closed subgroup of dancers.
I hope that clears that we are just using different perspectives and
some unconcious dogma-like markers to identify styles, while essentially
agreeing on most of the VALUES (even if arriving to a different
conclusion for the 'enforcement' of these - which is IMHO sounds a bit
strange when a group of people understand the root causes, agree on the
values but try to implement methods to make this values generally
enforced using methods we DON'T agree on. As a sidenote: sounds like the
sign of times all over the planet...)
Cheers,
Aron
Jack Dylan ?rta:
>> From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
>>
>> Thank you for putting everyone in the same bag again. So, nuevo dancers are
>> all poor navigators and/or intrude on everyone's space again today?
>>
>>
>
> Please don't put words in my mouth because I definitely didn't say that.
> I really don't care how good the Nuevo dancers are, or how good their
> navigation is or whether or not they intrude into anyone's physical space.
>
> As I thought I said; the disturbance I most object to is mental, not physical.
>
> It could be Chicho for all I care. I still wouldn't want to share the dance floor
> with him - unless he danced traditional Tango, which I suspect he probably
> would if he was attending a traditional milonga.
>
> All we're asking is that you respect the spirit, tradition, codes and character
> of the milonga you're attending. Is that really too much to ask?
>
> Jack
>
>
>
>
>
--
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 20 66-36-006
https://www.milonga.hu/
https://www.holgyvalasz.hu/
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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
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Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 15:07:48 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
To: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>, Tango-L List
<tango-l@mit.edu>
Jack Dylan wrote:
>> From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
>>
>> Thank you for putting everyone in the same bag again. So, nuevo dancers are
>> all poor navigators and/or intrude on everyone's space again today?
>>
>
> Please don't put words in my mouth because I definitely didn't say that.
> I really don't care how good the Nuevo dancers are, or how good their
> navigation is or whether or not they intrude into anyone's physical space.
>
> As I thought I said; the disturbance I most object to is mental, not physical.
Ah - so the mere presence of nuevo dancers makes you incorrectly generalise and
*fear* that they may be inconsiderate, and that's enough to make any individual
nuevo dancing couple a real threat, regardless of whether they are actually
inconsiderate?
[I'm nor putting words in your mouth, I'm genuinely asking if that's what you meant.]
That's called building a Feindbild. It's been used to rationalise a lot of things,
and I won't invoke Godwin's law to end this thread though it's an easy exercise
to the reader ;).
All styles of tango spawn their own flavours of inconsiderate dancers - the
problem is in the attitude of the dancers, not the style. While nuevo seems
to spawn a type of inconsiderate behaviour that I would nickname "the whirlwind",
traditionalists mired in dogma they don't understand seem to be able to spawn
their own inconsiderate phenotypes; the one I encounter most often is called
"the windscreen wiper".
It's a couple never stepping back (that you should not step back *against
the line of dance* is a given, but that's not the same thing), but their
insistence on facing always the same way leads them to swerve from
side to middle and back constantly (given that's the only nonlinear movement
they allow themselves). Not a problem in itself, but sometimes these are a
lot slower than the ronda; as their side to side motions make them
impossible to overtake, it leads to global caravanning on the dance
floor.
That's *also* inconsiderate, but they usually have a deeply rooted
conviction that they're doing it "right" (they're not; respecting the
ronda also means moving at the speed set by it) and that as a result
everyone else has a duty to make the ronda move at the speed
*they* desire to dance, while whirlwinds may often offer apologies
if they become aware that they are resented.
>
> All we're asking is that you respect the spirit, tradition, codes and character
> of the milonga you're attending. Is that really too much to ask?
>
No, it's not. But as far as I'm concerned, it's the organiser who decides what
the rules are.
But that also means that when I am at a milonga where the rules
aren't set by staunch traditionalists, I *will* share the floor with anyone
who is considerate, be they nuevo dancers or not. I'll only fear those who
I've seen to misbehave (and will actively try to navigate away from them so
that I don't have to fear them, which is, of course, harder if there are
a lot of them).
And it also means that if someone is behaving like an ass, the fact that
he professes to "respect the spirit, tradition, codes and character"
is no excuse. If you're not being considerate (which means to be
abiding by a lot of subtle unspoken rules), then you aren't respecting
the codes, not even if you're desperately clinging to a small
set of beliefs about them and thus think you're "right".
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 11:39 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> The question that begs an answer I believe is why traditionalist are
> willing to examine the concept of different milongas while it appears
> that non-traditionalists are not.
The answer lies in the reason non-traditionalists attend traditional
milongas.
Jay wrote "a dancer who values impressing his partner".
Hereabouts, its "a dancer who values impressing his potential customers".
Almost all nuevo dancers found in trad European milongas are teachers.
I'll say that again.
Almost all nuevo dancers found in trad European milongas are teachers.
For them, a nuevo-only milonga would be about as much use as an
advert-only radio station.
Chris
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 13:33:28 -0400
From: Sergey Kazachenko <syarzhuk@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
To: Ecsedy ?ron <aron@milonga.hu>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<ebb7980c0910181033y1216ff71nd47a4f18876f1621@mail.gmail.com>
> All dancers in the 'nuevo' lot you mentioned from Arce, Chicho
> etc. consider themselves mainly social dancers
Kung Fu Tanda by Gustavo Naveira comes to mind
https://www.tangoandchaos.org/chapt_6school/36nav3.htm
Sergey
May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster )
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 20:05:01 +0200
From: Ecsedy ?ron <aron@milonga.hu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>
I am sorry to say, but what is written on that page is paranoid and
false. The videos do not illustrate what is written there. Neither the
'threatened' couples act as it is described, neither the near-accidents
happen. Also, this appears to be the final dance of a show and not a
milonga. There are barely people on that floor.
The only thing you've pointed out that Gustavo likes to dance with more
energy than the others and he is using space as it is available. All his
moves are easy to anticipate, and he is judging the other couples moves
well that they won't deviate into his path.
I must go back to my previous observation:, that most 'traditionals'
appear to idealize dancing where each couple is granted a football
field, and supposed to be moving as handicapped snails following more
unnecessary rules than the entire US Civil Code, caselaw included (no
wonder we have so many rules in the modern world - most of them
unenforcable). If this is the case, yes, I understand that these people
want to organize their own milonga. I guess a separate one each...
Aron
Sergey Kazachenko ?rta:
>> All dancers in the 'nuevo' lot you mentioned from Arce, Chicho
>> etc. consider themselves mainly social dancers
>>
>
> Kung Fu Tanda by Gustavo Naveira comes to mind
> https://www.tangoandchaos.org/chapt_6school/36nav3.htm
>
> Sergey
>
> May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... (
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster )
>
--
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 20 66-36-006
https://www.milonga.hu/
https://www.holgyvalasz.hu/
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4520 (20091018) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
https://www.eset.com
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 12:04:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: NANCY <ningle_2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>, Ecsedy ?ron <aron@milonga.hu>
This is, in fact, from the show "Milonguissimo" that has been produced off and on for several years at Confiteria Ideal and other places. ?I recognize the dancers such as Miguel Angel Balbi and others. ?The cast changes from time to time but Oscar Hector is the producer. ? ?I am surprised that Rick McGarrey used it to illustrate his Blog because he surly knows it is a show and not a typical milonga pista where these gentlemen dance.
Nancy
--- On Sun, 10/18/09, Ecsedy ?ron <aron@milonga.hu> wrote:
From: Ecsedy ?ron <aron@milonga.hu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
To: "Tango-L" <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 17:35:28 -0200
From: "Brian Dunn" <brianpdunn@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
To: "'Sergey Kazachenko'" <syarzhuk@gmail.com>
Cc: TANGO-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Sergey, you wrote:
> All dancers in the 'nuevo' lot you mentioned from Arce, Chicho
> etc. consider themselves mainly social dancers
Kung Fu Tanda by Gustavo Naveira comes to mind
https://www.tangoandchaos.org/chapt_6school/36nav3.htm
Sergey, what, no smiley-face after that? Surely you can see that this is a
joke-page.
I'm sure Rick had a lot of fun making this little video, including the cute
martial-arts sound effects, and the "Kung-Fu Tanda" is an inspired
play-on-words in the best Argentine tradition. But SOME of the photos that
Rick chooses to use for his joke at Gustavo & Giselle's expense show that
this is not from a milonga at all, but during a performance, on stage, for
an audience.
The idea of putting social tango on stage into a performance setting is an
old one, using the idea of a "mini-ronda" on stage, and often allows for
whichever couple is front-and-center to respond naturally to the fact that
the audience's attention is now primarily on them. Gustavo and Giselle are
doing no more than this in this video, seem to be causing no disruption
judging from the body language of the other dancers, and take up no more
than their share of the stage when they circulate "out of the spotlight" to
the back of the "stage ronda". A similar amount of room to what Gustavo
used is then granted to the following couples in the spotlight area.
I have enjoyed Rick McGarrey's blog a lot, and deeply appreciate his
heartfelt work articulating his unique perspective on the world of Buenos
Aires tango. It was fun to see Miguel Angel Balbi again in this video, who
we haven't seen for several years. But this bit of sleight-of-hand, so
pointedly questioning Gustavo's social dancing skills for the sake of
satire, seems like a pretty cheap shot, and unworthy of the standards set
elsewhere in his very interesting blog. Since he was the editor of the
video, I have to assume Rick knew perfectly well that this was dancing on a
stage for the pleasure of an audience, not social dancing exclusively for
one's partner in a milonga. It's disappointing that he went to such
enthusiastic lengths to mislead the readers of this page.
All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
www.danceoftheheart.com
"Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 17:35:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
--- On Sun, 10/18/09, Ecsedy ?ron <aron@milonga.hu> wrote:
> - nevertheless I do NOT believe that separation of milongas
> could be an
> answer to anything (except the possible annihilation of a
> style you are
> protecting), as for practicas, they are not more than a
> class without a
> teacher, so they immediately imply a certain closed
> subgroup of dancers.
It's called niche marketing and works successfully in the real world. Catering to peoples specific needs. It's recognizing that people have different needs and desires. We can all agree with that premise, correct?
The big thing bothering people about the idea of separate milongas is that they take it personally, as if it's saying something about them. That's the real problem. Quit taking it personally and you might just recognize that having separate milongas does not have to be a divisive thing. It can actually help to develop different styles, which to me, is more interesting than some monolithic blob. Yes, it's nice if we could all dance together in harmony, but sometimes, there's real life.
Trini de Pittsburgh
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
--- On Sun, 10/18/09, Ecsedy ?ron <aron@milonga.hu> wrote:
- nevertheless I do NOT believe that separation of milongas could be an
answer to anything (except the possible annihilation of a style you are
protecting), as for practicas, they are not more than a class without a
> teacher, so they immediately imply a certain closed subgroup of dancers.
It's called niche marketing and works successfully in the real world.
Catering to peoples specific needs. It's recognizing that people have
different needs and desires. We can all agree with that premise, correct?
Trini de Pittsburgh
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 22:44:20 -0400
From: Sergey Kazachenko <syarzhuk@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
To: brian@danceoftheheart.com
Cc: TANGO-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<ebb7980c0910181944t72ac65e7q29421ce222a160b5@mail.gmail.com>
> Sergey, what, no smiley-face after that? Surely you can see that this is a
> joke-page.
The jokes don't need to be accompanied by smileys to be funny.
For example, there is no smiley in my signature either.
Sergey
May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster )
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 00:42:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
To: Ecsedy ?ron <aron@milonga.hu>, Tango-L <TANGO-L@mit.edu>
> From: Ecsedy ?ron <aron@milonga.hu>
>
> I am happy for your responses. I DO AGREE with ALL of you in almost all
> aspects, except complete separation of MILONGAS.
>
>?.... nevertheless I do NOT believe that separation of milongas could be an
> answer to anything (except the possible annihilation of a style you are
> protecting), >
Aron, can you give us some reasons why you don't want to see separate
milongas, other than the one above, which makes no sense, unless you
think that Nuevo couldn't exist on its own.?
Separate milongas/practicas work in BsAs, why not elsewhere?
Jack
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 00:59:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES (Australia)
To: Vince Bagusauskas <vytis@hotmail.com>, tango-l@mit.edu
> From: Vince Bagusauskas <vytis@hotmail.com>
>? Laughingly, I have also heard 1st hand
> from certain organisers that nuevo is not danced in BsAs, from people who
> have been there.? Really?!!!
>
If someone visits BsAs, it's quite possible to visit a popular milonga
every night and never see any Nuevo so it's not surprising that many
visitors can return home with that idea.
Yes, they dance Nuevo in BsAs - but rarely in the milongas. Nuevo
is catered for in practicas such as Practica X and others.
Jack
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 13:10:23 +0200
From: ECSEDY ?ron <aron@milonga.hu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>
Dear Jack,
> Aron, can you give us some reasons why you don't want to see separate
> milongas, other than the one above, which makes no sense, unless you
> think that Nuevo couldn't exist on its own.
>
You are absolutely right. Nuevo is not a dance. It is tango. Separating
it would make it a separate dance after a while. I think you have
visually identified something that you call nuevo around you which even
I would not classify tango. I dance TANGO using nuevo technique.
> Separate milongas/practicas work in BsAs, why not elsewhere?
>
Umm. We are continuously talking about different things. Nuevo does not
separate. You can see all those 'nuevo' dancers in all the milongas (of
course they tend to frequent certain places more, but that tells you
more about the mood of the place than the style danced). Actually I was
taken around by a bunch of nuevo dancers in the trad milongas too. I see
no difference. But they still frequent schools like DNI.
As for nuevo dancers are teachers in Europe. Most European countries
have a smaller population than your average US county or even medium
cities. Even the big ones are fragmented by ethnic, traditional or
language boundaries. Obviously, many communities are small, so most
dancers who know what they do start to teach. I've seen this in many
cities. Also, most places (notable exceptions are the large
metropolises) have only one milonga on the same evening and it is NOT
normal to have milongas each day (in Hungary it is still considered a
major diplomatic offense to launch a new milonga when there is one on
the same day). In Budapest, there are 2M people, with over 3M if you
include the agglomeration zone. The second largest city in Hungary has
barely 300.000 people., the third half that much. Entire population is
less than 10M. Nevertheless, we have 4 regular milongas, maybe a bit
more during the summer (because of the open air stuff) in Budapest, and
only one city has a milonga - which is really only for one club there
with a dozen or so people.
Simply, the community is not large enough to support separate
traditional/nuevo milongas. Also, for an average milonga attendance of
40-60 people (Budapest), there are over a dozen people who do teach. Of
course, they aren't teaching that 60 people. Simply, the amount of
activity and overall tango population numbers are different: the mailing
list for tango has over 300 members, tango courses usually churn out an
average of a 1000 people per year. The problem is that most Hungarians
are simply not interested in going to milongas, only learning 'some
tango' (long story - has to do with danceschool tradition: people are
led to believe for decades, that they only need 8-lesson courses and
they have the basics in any dance). So milongas became the meeting point
for the fanatics, the elite, a large percent of them with enough
knowledge to teach (this is something we are trying to change
desperately - especially the nuevo folks...). Also, most of Eastern
Europe is nuevo land. Traditional teachers were considered lame by the
general population, because dancing is/was mostly a stage phenomenon
(after 40 years of state sponsored cheap elitist dance education and
performances - along with the Soviet-Russian influence - it is a normal
attitude) for the older people, for the younger ones, the freedom (and
the youth of teachers) in nuevo was/is more appealing. That's about it,
I guess. But nuevo folks dance to traditional tango, in close embrace,
even if sometimes (when they have the space and the chance) to fancy
stuff as well. For us it is completely organic to show characteristics
of nuevo, sal?n, even canyuengue within the same dance... purists may
cry now.
Cheers,
Aron
--
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 20 66-36-006
https://www.milonga.hu/
https://www.holgyvalasz.hu/
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 11:22:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Sandhill Crane <grus.canadensis@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@mit.edu>, ECSEDY ?ron <aron@milonga.hu>
--- On Mon, 10/19/09, ECSEDY ?ron <aron@milonga.hu> wrote:
> But nuevo folks dance to traditional tango, in close embrace,
> even if sometimes (when they have the space and the chance)
> to fancy stuff as well.
Well, this is at the heart of the problem, isn't it?
The guys racing their speedboats figure they always
have plenty of room to do the fancy stuff.
> For us it is completely organic to show characteristics of
> nuevo, sal?n, even canyuengue within the same dance...
> purists may cry now.
I'm not a purist, I just get really annoyed at speedboats
and washing machines. It just so happens, in this place
and time, that these are largely tango nuevo dancers.
You can mix any styles you want. Can you also please stop
lunging at my partner and me? Thanks.
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 21:57:23 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES
To: Sandhill Crane <grus.canadensis@yahoo.com>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Sandhill Crane wrote:
> Can you also please stop
> lunging at my partner and me?
You should get less personal: given ?ron is in Hungary,
unless you go to Budapest you're unlikely to be lunged at
by him ;).
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 16:25:55 -0700
From: "flame@2xtreme.net" <flame@2xtreme.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES (Ecsedy
?ron)
To: tango-l@mit.edu
The same video of Gustavo & Giselle appears in two different sections in
TangoandChaos. In Chapter 6 "The Nuts & Bolts of Tango" Ground Rules
he clearly describes their dancing as Stage Tango.
"The basic differences between stage and social tango should be clear. The
video begins with Miguel Balbi and his partner, and Alberto Dassieu and
Elba Biscay. All are milongueros. Then Gustavo Naveira and his partner
Giselle are shown dancing stage tango. You can see right away that he
picks up his feet, kicks, and moves his left arm around more than the
milongueros. He and Giselle also separate and do large leg swings and
poses. Unlike the milongueros, they move their bodies around, and dance
apart from each other. It's a more physically active and demonstrative way of
dancing because it's designed to entertain an audience: Stage tango."
So it seems he was using the clip to, in his mind, humerously illustrate a
point.
Diane
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 02:31:01 -0200
From: "Brian Dunn" <brianpdunn@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES (Ecsedy
?ron)
To: <flame@2xtreme.net>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
Diane, you wrote:
>>>
In Chapter 6 "The Nuts & Bolts of Tango" Ground Rules
he clearly describes their dancing as Stage Tango...
So it seems he was using the clip to, in his mind, humerously illustrate a
point.
<<<
Sure, it's clear he was trying humorously to make a point (at Gustavo &
Giselle's expense) by his thinly veiled suggestion that Gustavo & Giselle
are useful examples of "stage dancers" (clip 1) who don't understand how to
behave courteously in the milonga (clip 2). Don't you think that's the
basic message of these two uses of the video? Don't you think that's the
thinly veiled message he intends his readers (often uninformed - see many of
the comments) to take away?
Yet, one could as easily argue that it is Gustavo and Giselle who are the
examples of very appropriate behavior, because they are apparently working
quite well at their job - because the purpose of ALL the dancers on that
stage is to entertain the audience, right?
Really, would it have cost him much at any point to at least point out the
fact (non-obvious to the uninformed reader) that this was NOT a video of
social dancing at all, but a performance where some performers were using
elements of their social dance onstage for the pleasure of the audience?
Rick's an interesting guy - he and I have never met, but I respect his
devotion to his tango calling. His writing style is often enlightening and
enjoyable. He effectively conveys the sense in his blog that we are
listening in to a real cultural anthropologist at work. Of course he's
entitled to think whatever he wants about Gustavo and Giselle, and as I
said, I've very much enjoyed a lot of his work.
But I think he slacked off his usual journalistic standards here, for
whatever reasons, and he chose to do so very pointedly at Gustavo &
Giselle's expense, and quite enjoyed doing so on one occasion. OK, it's not
a journalistic tragedy, but it doesn't raise his standing as a reporter in
my eyes.
The fact that he is pretty fast and loose with his interpretations of the
interviews with Gustavo & Fabian (hey, how about a link to the originals,
unless you don't want us drawing our own conclusions?) suggests that his
purpose in these sections is not to inform, but to "entertain" - and to
entertain prejudices he hopes to foster through selective misleading
reporting...Fox News, anyone?
(Full disclosure - I conducted one of the interviews, which can be found at
https://www.danceoftheheart.com/naveirainterview.htm )
As far has his "humorous point": If Rick just wanted to use some available
video to tell his little fictional story, great, have fun, why not - but
then why go to so much effort to clearly identify the dancers (which seems
to take the "fiction" out of it, doesn't it?) except for the sake of the
misleading cheap shot that was my original point?
A former boss of mine told me a story about newspaper reporting once: "I
read a lot of newspaper articles in my local paper about things I don't know
much about. Then once I read an article about a topic I DO know a lot about
- and it was total nonsense. This makes me wonder why I should believe
their reporting anymore about things I don't know much about!"
So I have to say, since I know a lot about Gustavo & Giselle's dancing,
including his fifteen years of nightly dancing in the milongas of Buenos
Aires (a few years more than Rick, I imagine), that Rick's handling of this
"story" causes me to wonder whether I should give as much credence to things
he says about tango matters I don't know about.
I'd love to copy Rick on these messages, but I can't find an email address
on his blog, nor can I find a place to leave comments.
All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
www.danceoftheheart.com
"Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 17:12:39 +1100
From: Myk Dowling <politas@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TANGO 2000 ............For DUMMIES (Ecsedy
?ron)
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Brian Dunn wrote:
> As far has his "humorous point": If Rick just wanted to use some available
> video to tell his little fictional story, great, have fun, why not - but
> then why go to so much effort to clearly identify the dancers (which seems
> to take the "fiction" out of it, doesn't it?) except for the sake of the
> misleading cheap shot that was my original point?
>
I've always considered the point of that section wasn't to point to
individuals behaving badly, but to point out the kind of behaviour which
does distress people and lead to people coming away with bad impressions
of nuevo dancers.
Arguing about whether this person or that person dances rudely is
irrelevant. What we should be talking about is "what kind of dancing is
considered rude?" Isn't that a much better discussion? Won't that have a
better chance of getting people to behave in ways that don't annoy others?
Myk,
in Canberra
