2747 Tango buns
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:07:26 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Tango buns
I have been asked in a private email to elaborate on buttocks passage in my
description of Labor day festival classes:
>Can we talk about this thing with the good leaders and the butt? I ask
>because I noticed this in some leaders in milonguero style. It seems they
>exaggerate the locking of the leg which flexes the butt. It that what you
>mean? If so, I tried this but don't find it comfortable or smooth. The
>goal, I think, is to put all the weight on the axis point but you don't
>need to flex your buns to do that. Can you tell me anything else about
>your discussion or ideas about this phenomenon?
I hope someone (maybe Robert Hauk or one of the students from that class)
could write a bit more about this technique. I have spend maybe ten minutes
eavesdropping in his class, got amazed and hurried away to continue with
Robin s class on doing nothing to Pugliese (because I am lazy and like to do
nothing). I don't think I am qualified to answer these questions since the
description Robert gave in his lesson was a revelation to me too. I
personally prefer to flex my leg in all joints, since it makes me much more
stable.
Regardless of luck of qualifications here is my theory:
Locking leg makes weight shifting very obvious, hence each step is very
discernable to follower. If you do not do some of the fancy steps which
require reaching out with free leg locking weight carrying leg is not an
impediment. Initially when I saw Cacho walking this way I thought he might
be doing it because he is overweight and it is easier to carry your weight
on straight leg. I understand now that I might have been wrong - Robert is
not overweight. As I said in the original message I am going to investigate
this matter further during upcoming visit to Buenos Aires. I hope it is only
an idiosyncrasy of Cacho s style.
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 13:51:58 -0400
From: Jennifer Bratt <gwynhefaire@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango buns
Hello everyone,
I cannot speak for Robert Hauk or say what went on in his class, but the
leader's hip movement that I think you are talking about comes not so much
from locking the leg and tensing your muscles, but actually from relaxing
your weight down through the hip and standing leg, into the floor.
Try this: standing up, have two feet on the ground but your weight all over
your right foot. Pull your weight up out of the ground. Notice that both
legs are straight and your hips are even. Now relax into the ground down
through the right leg. Notice that your left knee will flex and the left
hip will drop slightly.
If a leader settles his weight on every step down into the ground in this
way then he will be very grounded and balanced(and as an added bonus his
hips/butt will take on this swaggery motion).
I think a follower should settle her weight down through her standing leg as
well, not pull up out of the floor. Her hips will also move naturally (and
in an appealingly feminine way:). This hip motion is up and down, within
the column of her body - not side to side which would take her hips outside
her axis. Try this: take a side step to the right with the right leg and
balance on the ball of the right foot but keep your left hip lifted after
your step. You will probably lose your balance towards the right. Now take
the side step, but as you place your weight onto the right leg, relax your
weight down through the right leg into the floor and let the left hip drop
naturally. You will be able to stay balanced and your left foot will reach
the floor so if you choose to do an embellishment, you can put energy into
the ground.
There are lots of other teachers who talk about the hips of the leaders and
followers. Luciana Valle says the leaders and followers both should step
like elephants, heavy and grounded, and then she usually proceeds to make
the sound effects of an elephant's rumbling footsteps. Susana Miller also
talks a lot about the leaders hips and says you should think of your hips as
a table that you put your weight down on top of. I'm sure there are others
too.
abrazos,
Jennifer NYC
>From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
>Reply-To: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: [TANGO-L] Tango buns
>Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:07:26 +0000
>
>I have been asked in a private email to elaborate on buttocks passage in my
>description of Labor day festival classes:
>
>>Can we talk about this thing with the good leaders and the butt? I ask
>>because I noticed this in some leaders in milonguero style. It seems they
>>exaggerate the locking of the leg which flexes the butt. It that what you
>>mean? If so, I tried this but don't find it comfortable or smooth. The
>>goal, I think, is to put all the weight on the axis point but you don't
>>need to flex your buns to do that. Can you tell me anything else about
>>your discussion or ideas about this phenomenon?
>
>
>I hope someone (maybe Robert Hauk or one of the students from that class)
>could write a bit more about this technique. I have spend maybe ten minutes
>eavesdropping in his class, got amazed and hurried away to continue with
>Robin s class on doing nothing to Pugliese (because I am lazy and like to
>do
>nothing). I don't think I am qualified to answer these questions since the
>description Robert gave in his lesson was a revelation to me too. I
>personally prefer to flex my leg in all joints, since it makes me much more
>stable.
>
>Regardless of luck of qualifications here is my theory:
>Locking leg makes weight shifting very obvious, hence each step is very
>discernable to follower. If you do not do some of the fancy steps which
>require reaching out with free leg locking weight carrying leg is not an
>impediment. Initially when I saw Cacho walking this way I thought he might
>be doing it because he is overweight and it is easier to carry your weight
>on straight leg. I understand now that I might have been wrong - Robert is
>not overweight. As I said in the original message I am going to investigate
>this matter further during upcoming visit to Buenos Aires. I hope it is
>only
>an idiosyncrasy of Cacho s style.
>
>Cheers, Oleh K.
>https://TangoSpring.com
>
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:42:16 -0700
From: Robert Hauk <robhauk@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango buns
Hey List,
Oleh Kovalchuke wrote:
>
> I have been asked in a private email to elaborate on buttocks passage in my
> description of Labor day festival classes:
>
> >Can we talk about this thing with the good leaders and the butt? I ask
> >because I noticed this in some leaders in milonguero style. It seems they
> >exaggerate the locking of the leg which flexes the butt. It that what you
> >mean? If so, I tried this but don't find it comfortable or smooth. The
> >goal, I think, is to put all the weight on the axis point but you don't
> >need to flex your buns to do that. Can you tell me anything else about
> >your discussion or ideas about this phenomenon?
Jennifer Bratt gave a good description of this, and I would like to
clarify a few points. I don't lock my knees when I do this, I do keep
my weighted leg fairly straight though. Actually the movement of the
butt is a result of letting the hip drop on the free leg side. As
Jennifer pointed out having the hip released gives you much better
balance, and that is what we were talking about when Oleh stuck his head
in the door. We showed a slightly exagerated version of the movement so
people could see what we were talking about. Of course there was a
little comedy in the act as well. It seems that Oleh was a little
over-impressed with the humor and didn't stick around for the whole
description. He also seemed, if his post is any indication, to be very
impressed with Robin's root chakra as well. I guess that is what
happens when you come in in the middle of the joke and don't stick
around for the punch line.
I really don't want to get into a big wordy description of this
technique here because I think this is better learned in person. It is
way too easy to misunderstand and have problems. I learned to do this
mostly from Susana Miller, and Cacho Dante, but also from watching many
of the older dancers in Buenos Aires. The result is a relaxed movement
with a very strong connection to the floor. This connection to the
floor gives you good balance and is the foundation of a strong
connection with your partner.
Happy tangos,
Robert
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 02:42:54 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango buns
Robert Hauk clarified the joke and explained buns technique in more detail:
>I don't lock my knees when I do this, I do keep
>my weighted leg fairly straight though. Actually the movement of the
>butt is a result of letting the hip drop on the free leg side.
>He [me - Oleh] also seemed, if his post is any indication, to be very
>impressed with Robin's root chakra as well. I guess that is what
>happens when you come in in the middle of the joke and don't stick
>around for the punch line.
Actually I admired both jokes and tried to indicate so in my "Impressions"
notes. I like the centered root chakra metaphor a bit more though as indeed,
in my opinion, it is more important to have well centered posture than to
balance with a tango tush - the first one is obligatory, the second is
stylistic in my opinion.
I did notice that you tend to dance on comparatively straight legs, which as
you correctly described leads to necessity to balance with butt muscles (I
paid attention at milonga after the lesson, since as I have mentioned the
concept was new to me). Personnaly I both bend my knees and, unless all
followers are conspiring to lie to me, have very balanced posture and strong
lead hence I feel I need to investigate into importance of walking with
straighter legs and being grounded from the tush further. At this point I
consider this to be an element of style.
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com
>From: Robert Hauk <robhauk@TELEPORT.COM>
>Reply-To: Robert Hauk <robhauk@TELEPORT.COM>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango buns
>Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 17:42:16 -0700
>
>Hey List,
>
>Oleh Kovalchuke wrote:
> >
> > I have been asked in a private email to elaborate on buttocks passage in
>my
> > description of Labor day festival classes:
> >
> > >Can we talk about this thing with the good leaders and the butt? I ask
> > >because I noticed this in some leaders in milonguero style. It seems
>they
> > >exaggerate the locking of the leg which flexes the butt. It that what
>you
> > >mean? If so, I tried this but don't find it comfortable or smooth.
>The
> > >goal, I think, is to put all the weight on the axis point but you don't
> > >need to flex your buns to do that. Can you tell me anything else about
> > >your discussion or ideas about this phenomenon?
>
>Jennifer Bratt gave a good description of this, and I would like to
>clarify a few points. I don't lock my knees when I do this, I do keep
>my weighted leg fairly straight though. Actually the movement of the
>butt is a result of letting the hip drop on the free leg side. As
>Jennifer pointed out having the hip released gives you much better
>balance, and that is what we were talking about when Oleh stuck his head
>in the door. We showed a slightly exagerated version of the movement so
>people could see what we were talking about. Of course there was a
>little comedy in the act as well. It seems that Oleh was a little
>over-impressed with the humor and didn't stick around for the whole
>description. He also seemed, if his post is any indication, to be very
>impressed with Robin's root chakra as well. I guess that is what
>happens when you come in in the middle of the joke and don't stick
>around for the punch line.
>
>I really don't want to get into a big wordy description of this
>technique here because I think this is better learned in person. It is
>way too easy to misunderstand and have problems. I learned to do this
>mostly from Susana Miller, and Cacho Dante, but also from watching many
>of the older dancers in Buenos Aires. The result is a relaxed movement
>with a very strong connection to the floor. This connection to the
>floor gives you good balance and is the foundation of a strong
>connection with your partner.
>
>Happy tangos,
>
>Robert
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 08:00:54 -0700
From: Jonathan Thornton <jnt@NOYAU.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango buns
Robert and list,
I want to again recommend the brilliant approach of Moshe Feldenkrais and
his Awareness in Movement approach to improving body function.
The following book by a student of Feldenkrais's:
Awareness Heals: the Feldenkrais method for dynamic health
by Steven Shafarman, Addison-Wesley 1997
Has a lesson that directly addresses this.
Robert, I highly recommend you take a look at this book. It's in the
library here in Eugene, so I'm thinking it highly likely you could find it
in Portland. It's not only WHAT Moshe knows about human movement but HOW
he teaches it and I think you would pick up a very useful approach to
helping people develop this movement.
Oleh, and anyone else interested in the subject would find the material in
this book very helpful to learning that manner of walking.
I don't want to go on at length. I will note for those unfamiliar with
Feldenkrais's work that he does not tell how to do but rather offers
a series of movements that you perform gently with awareness exploring the
possibilities of your sensory motor system. Often in the course of this
exploration you discover improved function.
The walk that is explored in the book is described as an elegant natural
way of walking, and let me also add IT FEELS REALLY GOOD to walk that way.
The gentle dropping of the free hip also allows a longer step accompanied
by a relaxation and lengthening in the lower back promoting back comfort
also.
It's best to have done some class work with a Feldenkrais teacher but not
neccessary, there are also videos available but I don't know if they would
be on the walk, but I'm guessing most dancers would find working with the
book helpful.
Jonathan Thornton
On Wed, 8 Sep 2004, Robert Hauk wrote:
> I really don't want to get into a big wordy description of this
> technique here because I think this is better learned in person. It is
> way too easy to misunderstand and have problems. I learned to do this
> mostly from Susana Miller, and Cacho Dante, but also from watching many
> of the older dancers in Buenos Aires. The result is a relaxed movement
> with a very strong connection to the floor. This connection to the
> floor gives you good balance and is the foundation of a strong
> connection with your partner.
>
> Happy tangos,
>
> Robert
>
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 19:40:09 -0300
From: Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
Subject: Tango Buns
First, Jennifer Bratt wrote:
<There are lots of other teachers who talk about the hips of the leaders and
followers. Luciana Valle says the leaders and followers both should step
like elephants, heavy and grounded, and then she usually proceeds to make
the sound effects of an elephant's rumbling footsteps.>
Later, Robert Hauk wrote:
<I really don't want to get into a big wordy description of this
technique here because I think this is better learned in person. It is
way too easy to misunderstand and have problems. I learned to do this
mostly from Susana Miller, and Cacho Dante, but also from watching many
of the older dancers in Buenos Aires.>
We all have lots of practice walking. Walking in tango should be natural,
not contrived. I'm a life-long dancer, and I'm not going to walk heavy in
any dance. I keep my feet on the floor when I dance and on the ground when
I walk.
From now on, I'm going to pay close attention in the milongas to see if I
can catch some butt action from the men. I think the milongueros would
shake their heads in disbelief if I told them about this ridiculous
discussion and the way tango is being taught (sold) in the U.S.
Pichi de Buenos Aires
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 19:00:30 -0700
From: Farkyu Uptabut <farkyu_uptabut@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Buns
Janis,
For your first point about walking, I would like to observe that if you
would sit in a public plaza to watch many people how they walk, you would
see that some of them are apparently not very good even at natural walk,
although each of them benefits of his own lifetime of practice. I will
leave this to yourself, but for me I see people whose walk is sloppy, ugly,
slouching, and so forth, and do not look as if they could walk far, while
others have walking with smoothness, grace, energy and so forth, and are
nice to watch. (And I don't think you keep your feet on the groung when you
walk, as you say you do. I have never seen anyone walk that way, except
unfortunates who are not able to lift their feet.)
Second, I think that I have a good walk, but when I try with dancing close
to anyone in tango, it does not work, because of the collision of feet and
legs. In the class the teachers say that tango commands a changing of the
posture and the timing of the walk. For both, weight poised more forward
than natural, and for leaders move body then feet, but followers somewhat
the reverse. I think that might be right although perhaps my description
and understanding are not perfect, because I notice that almost all other
beginners have the problem of collision of legs or feet as they try walking
tango as natural.
And then there is the bouncing, because although my natural walk is smooth
for walking, when I walk with a partner there is a bit of a bounce, so
apparently the tango walk is even smoother than the natural walk in regard
to the vertical directioin.
Third, I am not familiar of Cacho, but from reading of this list and
elsewhere, I think at least that Susana and Luciana are teaching in
Argentina more than in US, so if that is the way it is taught here I think
it must be that way in Argentina as well, allthough not from Susana and
Luciana to your milonguero friends, who are older. Or are you telling us
that these teachers are coming here just to teach a shuck to us Yankees?
Finally, if you have been dancing your whole life I suggest that perhaps you
learned bit-by-bit to change your natural walk for the tango, and perhaps
those old milongueros changed that way as well, with lots of practice but
with not explicit instruction. Where as people who come to tango without
knowledge have to be taught explicit details even of the walk, if they are
destined to learn in months and years rather than in decades.
I would like to hear of your observations in the milongas and perhaps asking
these friends, although if you have aleady decided the discussion is
ridiculous, I think that will command the answer you get..
Farkyu
>From: Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
>
>We all have lots of practice walking. Walking in tango should be natural,
>not contrived. I'm a life-long dancer, and I'm not going to walk heavy in
>any dance. I keep my feet on the floor when I dance and on the ground when
>I walk.
>
>From now on, I'm going to pay close attention in the milongas to see if I
>can catch some butt action from the men. I think the milongueros would
>shake their heads in disbelief if I told them about this ridiculous
>discussion and the way tango is being taught (sold) in the U.S.
>
>
>Pichi de Buenos Aires
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