3219  Tango Dialects)

Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 18:39:24 +0000
From: Bruce Stephens <bruce@CENDERIS.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: The cross (was Re: [TANGO-L] Tango Dialects)

Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM> writes:

[...]

> As to the cross, most classical salon tango dancers will allow the
> woman to automatically cross in front after he walks two steps to
> her right. When I do not want her to lock in front, I prevent her
> from doing so by placing my left foot by her left one so that she
> cannot cross.

> A few will always lead the cross and also the change of wait or
> not. Those usually are stage dancers that do very complex
> choreography. For general social dancing the cross can be done
> automatically.

That sounds very much like something that varies from place to place.
I don't remember ever being taught in those terms; whenever teachers
taught the cross, I remember them emphasising that it's lead, and not
automatic. (Indeed, I can remember exercises where we danced the 8
count basic both with and without a cross (leading the choice), which
wouldn't have worked if our partners did the cross automatically after
an outside step. And one teacher taught the cross from inline, before
she taught walking outside.) And these certainly weren't teachers
teaching stage dancing.

I've certainly seen teachers teaching that the cross is what you do on
step 5, but it seemed to me that they were doing that because they
didn't want to teach how to do it properly at that point, not that
they really believed it. (I'm not convinced that that's a good
teaching strategy, but that's a separate point.)

I must admit, I'm surprised. I thought the idea that the cross was
something that followers danced automatically after a step outside (or
whatever the rule is) was something that was just used in the 1990s,
before people had really worked out what tango was and how to teach
it. Is that not the case? (I know there are followers who strongly
believe that most leaders don't lead the cross, but I suspect that's
nothing to do with what good dancers believe about how the cross
should be danced!)

Maybe it's just a difference in terminology: what you describe as
"allow[ing] the woman to automatically cross in front after he walks
two steps to her right" might be what I'd call leading the cross?

[...]

Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:07:29 -0500
From: Clint Rauscher <clint@AXIALPARTNERS.COM>
Subject: Re: The cross (was Re: [TANGO-L] Tango Dialects)

> I must admit, I'm surprised. I thought the idea that the cross was
> something that followers danced automatically after a step outside (or
> whatever the rule is) was something that was just used in the 1990s,
> before people had really worked out what tango was and how to teach
> it.

I have been pretty amazed at this conversation as well. Leading seems to be
so fundamental to Tango that I just can't believe that any leader would
expect a woman to automatically do anything. This is so opposite from the
way I have seen tango taught. I can't understand why, as a leader, if you
wanted to go outside partner and stay there that you would not want that
option.

I have been dancing for about 2 years now and regularly go to beginning
classes to warm up for the intermediate class. I see women learning the
basic and automatically crossing after the first or second classes.. but as
soon as the teacher explains that the cross is not automatic that it is
lead.. you see little lightbulbs going off in the followers/womens brains
that they have to listen and follow every single movement that nothing
should be taken for granted. Their dance improves by about 20% at that very
moment. They can stop thinking and trying to remember moves and start
listening and following.

I have also read on here that the grapevine is a set pattern... I think that
is dangerous as well. Sure the actual grapevine is front side back side
front side.. etc.. but I could lead front side back side back side back side
if I wanted.. again I lead that in the chest.. now if I do not lead it then
sure I would expect the normal grapevine if I just turned in a circle. But
follows should be made aware that just because we did front side back side
there is no garuantee that another front side is about to happen.

One last 2 cents from me on this... I have seen several people restate my
opinion that tango is lead in the chest and include words like twist and
contort. When I say lead in the chest when leading the cross from outside
partner, I am only talking about the slightest turn in the chest.. not
contorting or twisting... just a slight turn out of the chest and then back
straight to lead the cross. Also.. leading with the chest has nothing to do
with the right or left arm.. if you are a good leader you should be able to
drop both hands and lead practically any tango movement just with your chest
in close or open embrace.. if the follow/woman has good technique... before
people start in.. I said practically. ;-)

> Maybe it's just a difference in terminology: what you describe as
> "allow[ing] the woman to automatically cross in front after he walks
> two steps to her right" might be what I'd call leading the cross?

I still think this could be the case... but what that means is that these
teachers are doing it and not transferring that knowledge to their
students.. which can cause much confusion.

just my opinion.. i could be wrong...

Clint