4060 Tango Ed Psych 102
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 12:31:00 +0000
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM>
Subject: Tango Ed Psych 102
Is there anyone here who agrees with this, and cares to share the reason?
In order to be able to improvise it is necessary to
analyze deeply the structure and the technique.
(Author unidentified, since it could have come from any number of teachers.)
Chris
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 13:15:19 +0000
From: Andrew RYSER SZYMAŃSKI
<arrabaltango@YAHOO.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
Hi Chris,
I am right now improvising an answer to your query. In
order to do so & make myself understood I need to be
familiar with the "structure & technique" of the
English language. I could, of course, answer with a
quote from somebody else, which would then need to be
exact[Copyright laws &c]. This would take me at least
a week of trawling on the Internet to find something
that suits me. Or, I could quote something totally
irrelevant [Hamlet's "To be or not to be...."?] just
to answer you back quickly. I would suppose a
substantial amount of my knowledge of the English
language had come from "deep" [?!] analysis, but this
theoretical background had needed constant empirical
practice to be of any use. Of all the languages I know
there is not a single one that I learned using a
phrase book. Does this answer your question?
Cheers,
Andy.
PS1: this was not completely improvised as I had to
correct at least ten spelling mistakes--probably due
to my poor keyboard technique.
PS2: Oh, and then I have just analysed that Spellcheck
can't spell.....
--- "Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM> wrote:
> Is there anyone here who agrees with this, and cares
> to share the reason?
>
> In order to be able to improvise it is necessary to
> analyze deeply the structure and the technique.
>
> (Author unidentified, since it could have come from
> any number of teachers.)
>
> Chris
>
Andrew W. RYSER SZYMAQSKI,
23b All Saints Road,
London, W11 1HE,
07944 128 739.
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 08:16:27 -0500
From: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
Chris:
Absolutely correct. Tango is lead ONE step at a time. For example, if a man
leads a woman to step sideways to HER right, the next step can be a)
keeping her on her right foot, pivot her for front ocho, b) pivot her for
back ocho c) lead her to step back. Three possibilities from ONE step. If
you choose a) or b), you can overturn the ocho and lead the follower into a
molinete. When she takes a forward or back step, you can pivot her and lead
her to step in the other direction.
Tango is a dance of possibilities. To understand the possibilities, you have
to analyze the structure. The leader must always ask "What foot is the woman
standing on?" As for technique, each partner will determine if the other
half has axis, frame, posture, and balance; the elements of technique. Also,
both partners must be relaxed. It's very difficult to move a tensed muscle.
Michael
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
Enjoying the federal holiday very much
----- Original Message -----
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 15:21:16 +0100
From: hotmail <peter_jouliard@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
if you know which foot of the woman has the weight, you already may know,
what you can lead. Depends on which elements you know how to lead.
then, just choose one one the possibilities according to your possibilities,
your partner possibilites, the music, other couples, etc.
example:
the woman has her weight on her right foot. you may lead her in a backward
step or in a step to her left or after a little pivot on a step to her
right(back)
you choose and that is improvisation. not that hard at all.
peter
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 1:31 PM
Subject: [TANGO-L] Tango Ed Psych 102
> Is there anyone here who agrees with this, and cares to share the reason?
>
> In order to be able to improvise it is necessary to
> analyze deeply the structure and the technique.
>
> (Author unidentified, since it could have come from any number of
> teachers.)
>
> Chris
>
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 00:27:35 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
> Is there anyone here who agrees with this, and cares to share the reason?
>
> In order to be able to improvise it is necessary to
> analyze deeply the structure and the technique.
It means, you have to know the laws of composition. Just like you cannot
speak a language without knowing the grammar (unless you memorise some
prefabricated sentences, as someone mentioned, which does not help much in
holding a proper conversation), and you cannot compose or improvise music
without understanding musical structures. Tango works the same way.
Memorising step sequences only gives you a rather limited range of
movements, and simply walking ahead any way you want is not really tango.
Hope this helps
>
Astrid
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 09:52:42 -0600
From: Clif Davis <clif@CLIFDAVIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
Personally, I like the musical analogy...
If a person wants to be a good jazz musician then they must have a good
understanding of the underlying musical theory. Cord structure key
signatures and so on. Plus much much more of the theory or more simply
stated, there must be excellent grounding in the basics of the dance,
(music) before one can learn to improvise.
Clif
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 17:27:27 +0100
From: hotmail <peter_jouliard@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
so what are these "laws of composition" for tango?
what is the "grammar" of tango?
peter
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango Ed Psych 102
>> Is there anyone here who agrees with this, and cares to share the reason?
>>
>> In order to be able to improvise it is necessary to
>> analyze deeply the structure and the technique.
>
> It means, you have to know the laws of composition. Just like you cannot
> speak a language without knowing the grammar (unless you memorise some
> prefabricated sentences, as someone mentioned, which does not help much in
> holding a proper conversation), and you cannot compose or improvise music
> without understanding musical structures. Tango works the same way.
> Memorising step sequences only gives you a rather limited range of
> movements, and simply walking ahead any way you want is not really tango.
>
> Hope this helps
>>
> Astrid
>
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 01:41:28 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
> so what are these "laws of composition" for tango?
> what is the "grammar" of tango?
Check out the interview with Fabian Salas. Every step also has an "entrance"
and an "exit" where you can link it to others. According to Salas, a
straight walk is a stretched out molinete, if I recall correctly, for
exemple.
Astrid
>
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 13:16:40 -0500
From: John Gleeson <johngleeson@NC.RR.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
I respectfully have to disagree (somewhat).
Millions of people around the world learn to speak their own language without knowing anything about grammar. They might not be in
line for a professorship of "english" (or some other language) or maybe for a job as a TV newscaster (:<), but nevertheless they do
speak their own language - and pretty fluently at that !
And to use the jazz analogy - one of the early Jazz pioneers and masters (in the truest sense of the word) was Sidney Bechet. He
didn't learn the structure of keys and chords - before starting to play a tune that someone called out he would ask "what is the
beginning note"? He could improvise a tune as well as anybody else could do who was schooled in musical theory. In many cases even
better.
Cheers, John G.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 10:52 AM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango Ed Psych 102
> Personally, I like the musical analogy...
> If a person wants to be a good jazz musician then they must have a good
> understanding of the underlying musical theory. Cord structure key
> signatures and so on. Plus much much more of the theory or more simply
> stated, there must be excellent grounding in the basics of the dance,
> (music) before one can learn to improvise.
>
> Clif
>
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 16:20:03 -0600
From: Clif Davis <clif@CLIFDAVIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
John, I agree that this is possible having spent many years as a
percussionist (trap set) with a band and never having lessons. I also
was soloist during a tour in Germany, all without the benefit of having
formal training. But, I don't think we would encourage people to go to
melongas never having had any lessons in the dance. It isn't the same as
"disco" dancing. There are partners who must be able to understand our
direction.
Clif
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 12:17 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango Ed Psych 102
I respectfully have to disagree (somewhat).
Millions of people around the world learn to speak their own language
without knowing anything about grammar. They might not be in
line for a professorship of "english" (or some other language) or maybe
for a job as a TV newscaster (:<), but nevertheless they do
speak their own language - and pretty fluently at that !
And to use the jazz analogy - one of the early Jazz pioneers and masters
(in the truest sense of the word) was Sidney Bechet. He
didn't learn the structure of keys and chords - before starting to play
a tune that someone called out he would ask "what is the
beginning note"? He could improvise a tune as well as anybody else could
do who was schooled in musical theory. In many cases even
better.
Cheers, John G.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 10:52 AM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango Ed Psych 102
> Personally, I like the musical analogy...
> If a person wants to be a good jazz musician then they must have a
good
> understanding of the underlying musical theory. Cord structure key
> signatures and so on. Plus much much more of the theory or more simply
> stated, there must be excellent grounding in the basics of the dance,
> (music) before one can learn to improvise.
>
> Clif
>
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 14:44:48 -0800
From: Dr Zarlengo <zarlengo@MAC.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
I support Clif's contention.
I studied and taught martial arts for 30 years (Shotokan and
Shitoryu, integrated with some aido, aikido, judo, and common sense
steet techniques). Only those students who grasped the fundamentals
and understood why they were performing the movement the way the
were, became excellent practicioners later on. Common sense
techniques should be of great value on the dance floor.
Building on basics, integrating basics into "phrases" and
understanding the theory of what you are doing is extremely
important. Once you have a vocabulary of martial arts techniques,
you can begin to improvise and even create. But the improvision and
creation is based upon a solid foundation of basics and an
understanding of the movements ...
One must practice at least 4 times per week to move ahead. Once a
week will not do it. Studing and practicing a couple of hours 4 or 5
(or more) days per week will allow you to progress well, assuming you
are attentive to detail, listen well, and have a good instructor.
I believe this applies to Tango, Flamenco (which I studied a few
years ago), ...
Don
Personally, I like the musical analogy...
If a person wants to be a good jazz musician then they must have a good
understanding of the underlying musical theory. Cord structure key
signatures and so on. Plus much much more of the theory or more simply
stated, there must be excellent grounding in the basics of the dance,
(music) before one can learn to improvise.
Clif
Il poeta
di sognos
di anima ...
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 18:16:26 -0700
From: Bruno Romero <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
The question was:
> Is there anyone here who agrees with this, and cares to share the reason?
> In order to be able to improvise it is necessary to
> analyze deeply the structure and the technique. <
Do we mean spontaneous when we say improvised? I do not think that by
analyzing deeply the structure and the technique I will become more
spontaneous in my dance. I think that what may happen is that I will use
structures or what William Forsythe calls structured "tasks" to carry out
improvised dances. These structured tasks would be noticeable after watching
a performance for a while,
Regards,
Bruno
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 17:36:19 -0800
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
Interesting thought, Chris. I think that only applies
if one were to purposefully "improvise" to create new
steps or combinations. An analogy would be a pastry
chef who would need to understand the difference
between using butter versus shortening (or a
combination) in creating a new recipe.
However, improvisation happens commonly with
beginners, who lack such deep knowledge, as they
navigate a dance floor. Similarly, it doesn't take
much analysis to figure out if, say, one's dinner
could use a little more salt.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- "Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM> wrote:
> Is there anyone here who agrees with this, and cares
> to share the reason?
>
> In order to be able to improvise it is necessary to
> analyze deeply the structure and the technique.
>
> (Author unidentified, since it could have come from
> any number of teachers.)
>
> Chris
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 10:31:09 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
> Millions of people around the world learn to speak their own language
without knowing anything about grammar.
There is a difference between knowing the grammar and using it,and actually
analysing what you are doing. A language teacher has to be familiar with the
analysis, a speaker does not. Nevertheless, a speaker of the language is
familair with the grammar, because withoiut grammar, there is no language,
just an incomprehensible jumble of words.
Now, since tango was not fed to you with your mother's milk, the way your
language was, you have to learn it. Some prefer to do that by rote
memorisation, others find it easier to have someone explain and teach them
the elements of tango with which to build their own steps.
As someone said, tango is not like disco dancing. It is danced by two people
and there are certain rules to make this work.
>
> And to use the jazz analogy - one of the early Jazz pioneers and masters
(in the truest sense of the word) was Sidney Bechet. He
> didn't learn the structure of keys and chords - before starting to play a
tune that someone called out he would ask "what is the
> beginning note"?
Which means, he knew the keys and chords all the same.
Sorry, John, tango is not quite like a jam session. It takes patience to
learn it.
Astrid
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 10:39:23 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
Were can i find the interview with Fabian Salas...?
B$B!&(Bent Karabagli
For exemple:
https://www.totango.net/salas.html
>> so what are these "laws of composition" for tango?
>> what is the "grammar" of tango?
>
> Check out the interview with Fabian Salas.
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 14:06:12 +1100
From: Gary Barnes <garybarn@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
Analysis is one tool for achieving improvisational competence -- or
excellence. It is not the only tool, and certainly not the best. Doing
analysis is not the same as gaining knowledge.
Eg, visual learners do not analyze as their main learning tool, yet
they can have excellent access to both technique and structure.
I would replace the quote with something like:
"In order to be able to improvise, it is necessary to
have some unconscious knowledge of the structure,
and unconscious embodiment of the technique.
The deeper this knowledge, the easier it will be to improvise."
But if analysis gets you there, well, go for it!
Gary
On 20/02/2006, at 11:31 PM, Chris, UK wrote:
> Is there anyone here who agrees with this, and cares to share the
> reason?
>
> In order to be able to improvise it is necessary to
> analyze deeply the structure and the technique.
>
> (Author unidentified, since it could have come from any number of
> teachers.)
>
> Chris
>
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 20:10:55 -0800
From: Dr Zarlengo <zarlengo@MAC.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
Your words bring up the words: internalize; kinesthetic learning.
There are steps in achieving proficiency.
The last step in learning is unconsciously performing what you began
to learn at the begining very consciously and purposefully. Even if
you are a learn by watching person. You are still focusing on the
movement. Tango is all about walking, as is said.
Don
Analysis is one tool for achieving improvisational competence -- or
excellence. It is not the only tool, and certainly not the best. Doing
analysis is not the same as gaining knowledge.
Eg, visual learners do not analyze as their main learning tool, yet
they can have excellent access to both technique and structure.
I would replace the quote with something like:
"In order to be able to improvise, it is necessary to
have some unconscious knowledge of the structure,
and unconscious embodiment of the technique.
The deeper this knowledge, the easier it will be to improvise."
But if analysis gets you there, well, go for it!
Gary
On 20/02/2006, at 11:31 PM, Chris, UK wrote:
> Is there anyone here who agrees with this, and cares to share the
> reason?
>
> In order to be able to improvise it is necessary to
> analyze deeply the structure and the technique.
>
> (Author unidentified, since it could have come from any number of
> teachers.)
>
> Chris
>
Il poeta
di sognos
di anima ...
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 18:26:41 +1100
From: Gary Barnes <garybarn@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
I agree that even visual learners can learn 'consciously and
purposefully' - although some learn with neither consciousness nor
intent. This is a part of what is often called 'natural talent'.
But 'focusing on the movement' is very different, IMHO, to 'analyzing'.
I am not arguing that improvisation (in a specialist frame, eg tango)
can be done without learning.
I am arguing that learning can be done without analyzing. Which is why
I replaced 'analyze' with 'knowledge' and 'embodiment.'
Analyzers (and I am one, as you can tell from the above) tend to assume
that this is the only way to knowledge. But my analysis tells me this
is not so...
And in terms of educational psychology, for many people the belief that
they must be able to analyze what is going on can be a significant
barrier to learning - sometimes just doing is a better strategy. And
no, I am not talking about learning step patterns.
Gary
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 01:15:57 -0800
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
Talking about improvisation is talking about tango. ( Hmm, I like the
thought - just came to me! )
"In order to be able to improvise it is necessary to
analyze deeply the structure and the technique."
It may be a surprise for someone, but I disagree with the general sense of
this phrase.
Well, "deep analysis of the structure and technique" always helps: it is
premature to talk about improvisation when one can not dance well. To be
able to improvise it is much more important specifically learn how to
improvise, which means:
1. First of all set your mind up in the right state: "I am going to change
what I do on every step, I am going to!" - you have to say for yourself
constantly. And do it! The smaller thing you change the better: vary
tension, length of the step, extra small step, miss a step, a little slower,
a little to the side, a little rotation of things which are done without
rotation, no rotation of things which are usually done with rotations, -
millions more. You have to learn how to act in an unusual situation: never
get lost at least. Improvise always! I believe a woman has many
opportunities to improvise, but it is a man who is responsible mostly ( any
feedback on this, women? ).
2. You can change a lot of parameters of the dance and there are numerous
methods and tricks to do it. Knowing it is pretty far away from what usually
is taught as "structure and technique".
3. Knowing different styles and ways to dance helps a lot. Watching a
particular style helps to generate new ideas spontaneously: "Let me do like
this, and let us see what happens". There was no "deep analysis of the
structure", but the method works. Try it!
I would rephrase that:
"If you know how to improvise on the straight walk - there will be no
problem for you to improvise". All structure and technique which helps to be
able to improvise on a straight walk helps
in improvisation overall. Everything else is extra.
Should I say like this? A bit risky:
"Structure and technique comes from improvisation. Then it is the right
structure and technique, not artificial. It is difficult to draw
improvisation from the "right structure and technique", because the most
important thing which is required for improvisation - to unblock a mind from
memorized patterns, repetitions."
At least that how it worked for me.
Igor Polk
PS. I am not Salas, but for me Molinete is a crooked straight walk. ( and it
is much easier to go in this direction, because it is just ... simpler! )
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 14:02:00 +0000
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
>> so what are these "laws of composition" for tango?
>> what is the "grammar" of tango?
Astrid wrote:
> Check out the interview with Fabian Salas. Every step also has an
> "entrance" and an "exit" where you can link it to others. According to
> Salas, a straight walk is a stretched out molinete
> https://www.totango.net/salas.html
In that interview I see Fabian saying he found a structure that every dancer uses and that most teachers don't know about.
But no mention, even indirect, of: laws of composition, grammar of tango, entrances, exits, linking, or that a walk is a stretched out molinete.
Perhaps some other interview? Some other interviewee?
Chris
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 23:36:54 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
> > https://www.totango.net/salas.html
>
> In that interview I see Fabian saying he found a structure that every
dancer uses and that most teachers don't know about.
>
> But no mention, even indirect, of: laws of composition, grammar of tango,
entrances, exits, linking, or that a walk is a stretched out molinete.
>
> Perhaps some other interview? Some other interviewee?
See if you find something more informative somewhere among these:
https://perso.wanadoo.fr/mephisto-tango/qfayca_uk.html
>
Or look for stuff on Gustavo Naveira.
Not easy to sort through all these links on google.
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 15:24:00 +0000
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
> no mention, even indirect, of: laws of composition, grammar of
> tango, entrances, exits, linking, or that a walk is a stretched
Astrid wrote:
> See if you find something more informative somewhere among these:
> https://perso.wanadoo.fr/mephisto-tango/qfayca_uk.html
Nothing at all.
> Not easy to sort through all these links on google.
No problem here - there are very few:
"grammar of tango" 2, of which one is from this list.
tango "laws of composition" 7, of which none are about dance
The one relevant hit is a critical panning of the "Tango Pasion" show.
Chris
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 17:44:48 +0000
From: Andrew RYSER SZYMAŃSKI
<arrabaltango@YAHOO.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
--- astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP> wrote:
>........>
> Which means, he knew the keys and chords all the
> same.
>
> Sorry, John, tango is not quite like a jam session.
> It takes patience to
> learn it.
I must violently disagree. There is no difference in
this respect between the two. To paraphrase Wynton
Marsalis, "when you play classical music
[=choreography], you rehearse for weeks to make the
end product look fresh and spontaneous; whereas in
improvisation you get total strangers look like they
have been playing [or dancing] together for
years"...well, he said it better than that, but I
haven't got the time to find the right quote.
For a jam session to work, like in tango, you have to
forget your ego and blend in with your environment:
this requires discipline & concentration, the
"composition" will flow eventually; prior conscious or
unconscious knowledge of chords & keys is not
obligatory, as long as you can perceive all that is
going on around you >>at that moment in time!<< and
execute what fits the occasion [this of course does
not mean you have to follow like a sheep].If all you
want to do is blow on chords you can do that at home
with a multitude of Abersol play-along CD's; but that
is not all that jazz is about.
My main teacher in improvised music, the seminal
[late] drummer John Stevens had, as his first
principle:
"If you can't hear every note that is being played
around you in the room you are playing TOO LOUD!"
Which went with his second one:
"Just blow the most comfortable note you can think of"
This formed the theoretical basis of his practice.
The same can be done in tango: the first starting
point in improvisation is >>perception<<, in the same
way that in a conversation you have to first
understand what is being said before you say anything
yourself [unless, of course, you just want to waste
time because you have nothing to say: the kind of
character not uncommon in milongas....].
Cheers,
Andy.
Andrew W. RYSER SZYMAQSKI,
23b All Saints Road,
London, W11 1HE,
07944 128 739.
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 10:35:43 -0500
From: John Gleeson <johngleeson@NC.RR.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
I agree with Clif that taking lessons and learning/studying will make a better dancer.
I wasn't commenting on the need for study - just replying to the statements previously made here that it is impossible to improvise
without studying the underlying theory.
John G.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 5:20 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango Ed Psych 102
> John, I agree that this is possible having spent many years as a
> percussionist (trap set) with a band and never having lessons. I also
> was soloist during a tour in Germany, all without the benefit of having
> formal training. But, I don't think we would encourage people to go to
> melongas never having had any lessons in the dance. It isn't the same as
> "disco" dancing. There are partners who must be able to understand our
> direction.
> Clif
>
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 14:33:59 -0500
From: rhink2@NETSCAPE.NET
Subject: Tango Ed Psych 102
Interesting thread!
I think the language metaphor is apt. Perhaps more precisely dancing tango is akin to singing or scatting in 2-part harmony. The "deep structure" or "grammar" is needed to constrain the possibilities to allow your partner to respond meaningfully. So making up words/sounds within the structure is fine, even fun. But going beyond the structure reduces the entire activity to an exercise in gibberish and discord.
I have observed that the tango world, maybe the world in general, is divided into 2 camps: the traditionalists and the experimentalists. The former prefer a very strict definition of what constitutes the structure of tango. The experimentalists prefer to push the limits and explore where those limits are.
There is a natural and healthy tension between these 2 groups. The traditionalists are the guardians of the "grammar"; the experimentalists keep tango alive and vital.
I believe both groups are essential to the health of tango, but I would not advise attempting to partner with someone from the other camp.
Bob
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Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 20:20:24 +0000
From: Lucia <curvasreales@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102 - Mind numbing rubbish...get up and dance!
Reading this thread one should be concerned about the Health of Tango indeed...
Any more of this "deep", agonized rubbish and Tango could die from boredom...
Lucia ;->
rhink2@NETSCAPE.NET escribis:
dancing tango is akin to singing or scatting in 2-part harmony.
"deep structure" or "grammar" is needed to constrain the possibilities to allow your partner to respond meaningfully.
So making up words/sounds within the structure is fine, even fun.
But going beyond the structure reduces the entire activity to an exercise in gibberish and discord.
. The traditionalists are the guardians of the "grammar";
the experimentalists keep tango alive and vital. - HO HO HO!!
I believe both groups are essential to the health of tango,
but I would not advise attempting to partner with someone from the other camp.
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Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 07:11:58 -0800
From: Larry Gmucs <gmucs@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
Would it be useful to have a written form of Tango figures, such as those shown in https://www.maagical.ch/maagicalGmbH/andreasmaagprivat_laban.html? Although it's useful in some respects, something that academic will certainly add structure and remove spontaneity from the dance.
Larry in Cleveland
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Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 10:45:01 EST
From: Richard deSousa <Mallpasso@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
Those notations are way too complicated! I prefer Larry de Los Angeles's
simplified method of diagramming steps:
https://home.att.net/~larrydla/basics_1.html
El Bandito de Tango
In a message dated 2/22/2006 07:12:45 Pacific Standard Time, gmucs@YAHOO.COM
writes:
Would it be useful to have a written form of Tango figures, such as those
shown in https://www.maagical.ch/maagicalGmbH/andreasmaagprivat_laban.html?
Although it's useful in some respects, something that academic will certainly add
structure and remove spontaneity from the dance.
Larry in Cleveland
Yahoo! Mail
Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 11:28:47 -0500
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
The notations do appear complicated at first sight (I did not give them a
second, more careful look..). Larry's method might be easier, but in
reality I find that any attempt to explicate or understand tango dancing by
following any recipe or schematic of movements is useless unless one already
knows how to dance tango...
IMHO, the esscence of the tango is the music and the principal ingredient of
the dance is the connection between the partners. This is crucial in order
to lead and follow. The tango is all about two people moving together to the
music. Of course, there is the technique required of each person to walk
properly (that alone takes a long time to learn and integrate). Next in
importance is understanding the code of the dance which is generally that
the woman dances around the man and the man dances around the floor.
Generally the woman dances in a grapevine fashion (the molinete) which can
go in either direction and change directions at any time (front and back
ochos, and alterations).
After much thought and teaching people to dance tango for many years, I've
discovered that patterns such as the 8 count basic or any similar sequence
of steps is not a good way to teach or to learn. I think that the first
thing to teach the people is how to move to the music by themselves in a
simple walking manner and then how to move together with their partner in
the same way. Only after they have a rudimentary skill base in leading and
following do the patterns become useful.
This is why I believe that any schematic chart or drawing of organization of
steps, and/or lengthy written or verbal explications of the tango dance
movements are of very limited use for newbies or beginners. Even
intermediate level dancers need more personal instruction in order to learn
new and more complicated steps or sequences of steps.
Respectfully.
Manuel
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
>From: Richard deSousa <Mallpasso@AOL.COM>
>
>Those notations are way too complicated! I prefer Larry de Los Angeles's
>simplified method of diagramming steps:
>
>https://home.att.net/~larrydla/basics_1.html
>
>El Bandito de Tango
>
>
>
>
>In a message dated 2/22/2006 07:12:45 Pacific Standard Time,
>gmucs@YAHOO.COM
>writes:
>Would it be useful to have a written form of Tango figures, such as those
>shown in https://www.maagical.ch/maagicalGmbH/andreasmaagprivat_laban.html?
>Although it's useful in some respects, something that academic will
>certainly add
>structure and remove spontaneity from the dance.
>
>Larry in Cleveland
>
>
>Yahoo! Mail
>Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.
>
>
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 10:34:24 -0700
From: Bruno Romero <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
Larry wrote:
>Would it be useful to have a written form of Tango figures, such as those
shown in https://www.maagical.ch/maagicalGmbH/andreasmaagprivat_laban.html?
Although it's useful in some respects, something that academic will
certainly add structure and remove spontaneity from the dance.<
My 2 cents:
It would spontaneity if the author will indicate when and how other
variations are permitted.
I think that if the idea is to introduce people to the dance Laban Notation
is useful. Ines Cuello in "Antologia del Tango Rioplatense" provides a few
examples of Laban Notation starting with the walk and then simple
combinations. She adds the musical measures or compases to the walk, and to
the other examples.
Nicanor Lima's Manual of Tango Salon Argentino circa 1916 also uses drawings
and text to describe dance steps. Some of these steps under different names
are very similar if not identical to the steps performed by well known
dancers in Buenos Aires. What I can deduce is that some of the structures of
the pre-1920's Tango Salon choreography remain like blueprints in the tango
salon choreography nowadays.
Cheers,
Bruno
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 12:46:26 EST
From: Richard deSousa <Mallpasso@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
Manuel:
I agree with your first paragraph - I have the same opinion regarding videos.
In both cases it's is important to have hands on teaching, whether in group
or private classes.
I absolutely agree the 8CBS is the worse figure to teach beginners. I hardly
ever backstep against the line of dance (except to avoid a crazy leader who
takes more than a single step backwards!) so I don't teach the 8CBS to
beginners. I'd rather teach simple modules and let the beginner use them
improvisationally.
Best,
Rich
In a message dated 2/22/2006 08:30:35 Pacific Standard Time,
white95r@HOTMAIL.COM writes:
The notations do appear complicated at first sight (I did not give them a
second, more careful look..). Larry's method might be easier, but in
reality I find that any attempt to explicate or understand tango dancing by
following any recipe or schematic of movements is useless unless one already
knows how to dance tango...
IMHO, the esscence of the tango is the music and the principal ingredient of
the dance is the connection between the partners. This is crucial in order
to lead and follow. The tango is all about two people moving together to the
music. Of course, there is the technique required of each person to walk
properly (that alone takes a long time to learn and integrate). Next in
importance is understanding the code of the dance which is generally that
the woman dances around the man and the man dances around the floor.
Generally the woman dances in a grapevine fashion (the molinete) which can
go in either direction and change directions at any time (front and back
ochos, and alterations).
After much thought and teaching people to dance tango for many years, I've
discovered that patterns such as the 8 count basic or any similar sequence
of steps is not a good way to teach or to learn. I think that the first
thing to teach the people is how to move to the music by themselves in a
simple walking manner and then how to move together with their partner in
the same way. Only after they have a rudimentary skill base in leading and
following do the patterns become useful.
This is why I believe that any schematic chart or drawing of organization of
steps, and/or lengthy written or verbal explications of the tango dance
movements are of very limited use for newbies or beginners. Even
intermediate level dancers need more personal instruction in order to learn
new and more complicated steps or sequences of steps.
Respectfully.
Manuel
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
>From: Richard deSousa <Mallpasso@AOL.COM>
>
>Those notations are way too complicated! I prefer Larry de Los Angeles's
>simplified method of diagramming steps:
>
>https://home.att.net/~larrydla/basics_1.html
>
>El Bandito de Tango
>
>
>
>
>In a message dated 2/22/2006 07:12:45 Pacific Standard Time,
>gmucs@YAHOO.COM
>writes:
>Would it be useful to have a written form of Tango figures, such as those
>shown in https://www.maagical.ch/maagicalGmbH/andreasmaagprivat_laban.html?
>Although it's useful in some respects, something that academic will
>certainly add
>structure and remove spontaneity from the dance.
>
>Larry in Cleveland
>
>
>Yahoo! Mail
>Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.
>
>
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 10:47:49 -0800
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
--- astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP> wrote:
...an incomprehensible jumble of words... [ROFL]
Now, since tango was not fed to you with your mother's
milk, the way your language was, you have to learn
it...
<end snip>
Thanks Astrid. You are always entertaining.
Even though it is fed with their mother's milk, most
people use language poorly, which results in too much
miscommunication. Many of the disagreements expressed
in this thread are a result of poorly expressed ideas,
rather than differences in point of view. That is to
say that here there is more misunderstanding than
disagreement. For example, many posters are
contributing ideas about invention to a discussion
about improvisation. This has continued even after Dr.
Don gently hinted that these are two different ideas!
Sean
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 12:57:13 -0600
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
Andrew RYSER SZYMAŃSKI wrote:
>--- astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP> wrote:
>
>
>
>>........>
>>Which means, he knew the keys and chords all the
>>same.
>>
>>Sorry, John, tango is not quite like a jam session.
>>It takes patience to learn it.
>>
>>
>
>I must violently disagree. There is no difference in
>this respect between the two. To paraphrase Wynton
>Marsalis, "when you play classical music
>[=choreography], you rehearse for weeks to make the
>end product look fresh and spontaneous; whereas in
>improvisation you get total strangers look like they
>have been playing [or dancing] together for
>years"...well, he said it better than that, but I
>haven't got the time to find the right quote.
>
>
This from a guy whos improvisation gets serious disrespect in
the jazz world. With whatever respect due his accomplishments,
Marsalis was plucked out of the hopeful masses by the record
companies at age 18, made a bandleader without any seasoning
& training as a sideman, and got the Jazz equivalent of the
marketing push they give to geniuses like Britney Spears.
This is not to say that he isn't an excellent musician, but you won't
find a jazz great who didn't spend at least 5 years as a sideman in
at least 2 other bands.
Flame me all you like, but the Marsalis phenomenon has been a
disaster for jazz. His music is IMO overly intellectual and inaccessible,
and frankly isn't up to the standard set by the small groups of the
50's and 60's and even the early 70's (I like early jazz-funk fusion).
Worse, the record companies use him as a consultant as an arbiter
of taste in jazz to decide what's good and what's bad in new acts.
Sort of like they use software to decide which music to back with
their payola.
>For a jam session to work, like in tango, you have to
>forget your ego and blend in with your environment:
>this requires discipline & concentration,the
>"composition" will flow eventually; prior conscious or
>unconscious knowledge of chords & keys is not
>obligatory, as long as you can perceive all that is
>going on around you >>at that moment in time!<<
>
I have some experience with neural networks and fuzzy logic,
which models the operation of biological computers (ie, the
human brains). I can assure you if you are good at something,
you are filtering your perceptions against a formal model to
know what to do.
Whether you can articulate your model or have any awareness
of why you do what you do is a completely different matter.
However, I agree you can learn tango with a minimum of
explicitly stated formal knowledge of structure. However,
given the pattern-matching nature of the human brain, I
can guarantee you that you are building a model of tango
against what you see.
>and execute what fits the occasion [this of course does
>not mean you have to follow like a sheep].If all you
>want to do is blow on chords you can do that at home
>with a multitude of Abersol play-along CD's; but that
>is not all that jazz is about.
>My main teacher in improvised music, the seminal
>[late] drummer John Stevens had, as his first
>principle:
>"If you can't hear every note that is being played
>around you in the room you are playing TOO LOUD!"
>Which went with his second one:
>"Just blow the most comfortable note you can think of"
>This formed the theoretical basis of his practice.
>
>
That's an excellent way of teaching, consonant with the high value
jazz *used* to place on finding a personal, even idiosyncratic voice.
Record companies have screwed young jazzmen out of that
opportunity: you don't get session work unless you are adept at
giving music producers the exact sound they want, and they have
almost no interest in hearing a musicians personal voice or using
it as a creative element.
>The same can be done in tango: the first starting
>point in improvisation is >>perception<<, in the same
>way that in a conversation you have to first
>understand what is being said before you say anything
>yourself [unless, of course, you just want to waste
>time because you have nothing to say: the kind of
>character not uncommon in milongas....].
>
>
Yes, tango being a language of movement, you can develop your
own way of "speaking" it. I have seen it done, with results both
good and bad in the same person. It took him years, and he never
got in the habit of moving in the line of dance, and he paid a huge
price for it: there were whole classes of movements he did not and
could not do. I admit that at times he was interesting to watch, and
had a very unique style. At all times he used 3 to 8 times the floor
anyone else did, and even when the floor was almost empty, it
still seemed like he was often too close for comfort.
The continuing downside is that at least one talent-free chump is
actively trying to duplicate what he did, with abysmal results. He
doesn't have the physical or mental tools the other guy brought to
the game. So far, he has gotten the idea to do massively intrusive
stuff with his hands that I hope gets his glasses slapped off his face
pretty soon. Another imitator went within an inch or two of sending
someone to the emergency room for stiches.
The nice thing about developing and transmitting formal models of
tango is that people ramp up much faster and the models can
incorporate useful restraints on behavior that both create comfort
and spur creativity. By the way, I notice that your improvisation
teacher did begin by imposing demands and restraints on you.
Christopher
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 11:50:31 -0800
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
It is interesting to see how discussion about improvisation, which can be
vaguely called "breaking of familiar patterns" came to the point of
discussing dance figure notations.
Igor
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 14:00:51 -0600
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
WHITE 95 R wrote:
> This is why I believe that any schematic chart or drawing of
> organization of
> steps, and/or lengthy written or verbal explications of the tango dance
> movements are of very limited use for newbies or beginners. Even
> intermediate level dancers need more personal instruction in order to
> learn
> new and more complicated steps or sequences of steps.
However, a very useful schematic would be one which allows the student
to identify what he needs to know before attempting new material. For
example I heard one teacher I respect say that volcadas should come
after calecitas, so I practice calecitas and not volcadas (beyond a simple
bridge).
For instance, one of my many pet peeves is having to watch beginners
*trying* to do ganchos, when they don't have the prequisite skills for it:
follows tilt off axis, the leader doesn't have his foot in the right
place so
that the follower has to do move sideways at an angle to her natural
direction of movement to wrap her partners leg, among many other,
nasty, hard-to-watch crimes against tango. I just turn my head away
and pray someone doesn't get hurt: if I open my mouth I am fomenting
discord.
Don't get me started on people who hand out such material like candy
to students who perhaps have had 1 lesson a month on average from
any instructor at all over the 12 to 18 months they've been dancing and
have learned most of their tango at practicas. Perhaps it makes them
popular, but it's a severe waste of a beginner man's time and treasure
when he or she could be learning something that isn't going to tell every
follower in a larger town who might otherwise be generous to him, "Run!
Hide! Danger approaches!".
My problem is that my eye tells me exactly what's wrong, but I know
so little about ganchos I have no idea how to offer useful corrections.
I would love to be able to point out the prequisite skills for ganchos, but
I don't know anything about the topic and I'm too proud to pretend I
know.
Christopher
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 15:03:28 -0500
From: Jak Karako <jak@BAILATANGO.COM>
Subject: Tango Ed Psych 102
8CBS has one more disasterous effect for beginners; it limits the ability of lead and follow. As they both do their part, they no longer pay attention to each other.
I had students who couldn't break their habit of closing with 7,8 and starting again with 1,2 after any move.
Having said that once you pass the beginner stages 8CBS as limited as it might be helps retain information since it creates a point of reference.
with love form New York
Jak
www.Bailatango.com/ny/
917 575 1798
>Manuel:
>
>I agree with your first paragraph - I have the same opinion regarding videos.
> In both cases it's is important to have hands on teaching, whether in group
>or private classes.
>
>I absolutely agree the 8CBS is the worse figure to teach beginners. I hardly
>ever backstep against the line of dance (except to avoid a crazy leader who
>takes more than a single step backwards!) so I don't teach the 8CBS to
>beginners. I'd rather teach simple modules and let the beginner use them
>improvisationally.
>
>Best,
>Rich
>
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 15:53:08 EST
From: Bill King <Euroking@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Ed Psych 102
The key is first what are we talking about in this thread. I believe the
starting point was a statement: "In order to be able to improvise it is
necessary to
analyze deeply the structure and the technique."
The next question is who is it directed to and what purpose? To teacher’s
and proficient dancers it has one meaning; to beginner’s it has a different
meaning. To deeply analyze any subject before you have the foundation has the
effect of not being able to see the forest because of the trees.
From a learning perspective, new students need structure. Students want to
believe they are learning something, thus basic patterns means that their
minds can leave a lesson that has a beginning and an end. Simultaneously they
need to know that a pattern is only a learning tool and that Tango is not a
choreographed trip around a dance floor. This two-fold approach not only
allows the student to build a foundation but also encourages open thought. A lead
needs to learn from the beginning just because he can’t “complete a figure”
that all is not lost, that there are options. As this process continues
students learn there are an infinite number variations available. They gain this
later ability with experience. Floor time, mileage whatever term you want to
use, there is no substitute for actually dancing.
As an aside, I think analyzation and improvisation are separate but related
issues. If I might digress; as a ski instructor, I analyze everything, e.
g. from variations in snow conditions and the effects those conditions cause
on the biomechanical activity of the body as it moves down a hill. But this
is for internal consumption, to aid me understand what is happening so I can
design a simple progression that lets me impart the concept to a student. I
never (well almost never, I hate absolutes) convey this analysis to a
student. It clogs their mind. They will start to analyze when they are comfortable
doing so, and the depth of that analysis will very on their individual
learning style and depth of the students desire to know how something works.
Everyone is different.
In conclusion I contend that deep analysis is but a path to effective
improvisation, not the only path, IMHO.
Just some thoughts,
Bill in Seattle
