5431  tango history and schizophrenia

Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 12:32:36 EST
From: Crrtango@aol.com
Subject: [Tango-L] tango history and schizophrenia
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Aron wrote:

<<Just because they do not have a "master" or that they don't take lessons
directly, it does not mean that they are not copying elements, moves,
style, technique from others. In BsAs many dancers don't even know how
to spell nuevo, but that doesn't mean they don't USE it's benefits (and
of course most of them will never admit that there is any connection -
probably they don't even know or understand, because they can't care
less about exact classification).>>

Aron, that is your assumption only. A little more research into tango history
will say otherwise. I think he was being ironic...or should have been. I
doubt very seriously that El Chino, Petroleo, Virulazo or any of those older
masters learned much from Gustavo Naveira and others like him. If anything, it is
the exact opposite. Many of these older dancers were at least as inventive and
acrobatic when they were young, but have distilled their movements into
simpler elegant figures that are much more difficult than they appear. Don't confuse
pyrotechnics for quality and refinement.
Part of the reason so-called "nuevo tango" came about was because many of the
then younger dancers like Naveira had rejected the tango of their parent's
generation for rock music. They had considered it old fashioned and outdated and
it had practically disappeared from their world. But when the tango craze
was re-ignited around 1984-85, chiefly by Miguel Zotto (who had always admired
and emulated those same old masters), they decide to capitalize on the
new-found interest. But they had no roots in the tradition and instead interpreted it
with the new "rock" sensibility, and were affected by non-tango influences
and the music of Piazzolla, who openly admitted that he was more interested in
tango's relationship to jazz and classical music and was not interested in
carrying on the dance tradition.

Cheers,
Charles


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Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:09:21 +0100
From: Ecsedy ?ron <aron@milonga.hu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango history and schizophrenia
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>

> Aron, that is your assumption only. A little more research into tango history
> will say otherwise. I think he was being ironic...or should have been. I
> doubt very seriously that El Chino, Petroleo, Virulazo or any of those older
> masters learned much from Gustavo Naveira and others like him. If anything, it is
> the exact opposite. Many of these older dancers were at least as inventive and
> acrobatic when they were young, but have distilled their movements into
> simpler elegant figures that are much more difficult than they appear. Don't confuse
> pyrotechnics for quality and refinement.
>

Which El Chino are we talking about? (we have a few) Maybe I
misunderstood the reference.

As for Petroleo and Virulazo, it is obvious they didn't learn from
Naveira. But it is almost natural that they did copy other dancers from
their own era. Maybe just single moves, maybe more, even if they claim
to be self taught.

Nevertheless, at the end of the day, the only thing that counts is how
well you dance. It does not really matter how did you get there.

> Part of the reason so-called "nuevo tango" came about was because many of the
> then younger dancers like Naveira had rejected the tango of their parent's
> generation for rock music. They had considered it old fashioned and outdated and
> it had practically disappeared from their world. But when the tango craze
> was re-ignited around 1984-85, chiefly by Miguel Zotto (who had always admired
> and emulated those same old masters), they decide to capitalize on the
> new-found interest. But they had no roots in the tradition and instead interpreted it
> with the new "rock" sensibility, and were affected by non-tango influences
> and the music of Piazzolla, who openly admitted that he was more interested in
> tango's relationship to jazz and classical music and was not interested in
> carrying on the dance tradition.
>

That is your assumption. According to the nuevo advocates this wasn't
their goal. Nuevo was mostly just a "brand name" to distunguish
themselves from milongueros teaching their own (meaning: their own
private) form of tango with no experience or talent for _teaching_ (in
general), while they tried to give their students a system that
(supposedly) leads said students to dance tango as those great dancers
do. (knowing how to dance, and making others dance like you are two
entirely different ballgame - really if one is a ballgame, the other is
skating) The old milongueros with their independence, their being part
of the time when tango was still mainstream are an interesting
phenomenon, but their teaching skills are not always up to par and tango
is NOT mainstream anymore, so there is little to none possibility for
anyone (in Argentina or elsewhere) to approach tango as they did. Times
have changed, people have changed and the lifestyle changed. The only
possibilities left is to copy how it was done historically or innovate.
A few years ago this was still an ongoing debate. Today, the tides seem
to change in favour of innovation. I've seen quite a few milongueros
(not the very old ones, but around 40-50) in BsAs using, and some
"traditional" teachers - who shun nuevo - teaching a few (even if not
many) "modern" moves (single axis turns, volcadas etc.). Fashion
dictates and fashion changes. Traditional or not people will learn these
new "fashionable" moves. So there you go: it was not something you did
on your own. Teachers are only to give you a direction, but it is YOU
who will teach it to your brain and body. If you ommit the teacher, you
can still learn or even innovate. If you innovate people might want to
immitate, because they also want to do those "cool moves". And there you
go Mr. Naveira the Second...

Cheers,
Aron

--
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY

Tel: +36 20 66-24-071

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