5111  Tango is mystery, not work

Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 12:09:56 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango is mystery, not work
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>

Jeff: "War is work, not mystery" -- old Spartan saying

Yes.
I am not against practicing at all, but..

Tango is mystery, not work.

Igor Polk

PS. Practicing what makes a mistery mistery might be much more productive
for tango not to speak much more pleasant. Unless you are a sportsman.

The problem is and it is much more difficult. Effective practice is possible
only for advanced dancers - they know what to practice and how. But
beginners need it most. So someone should make a set of excersizes to help
them, but not suppress creativity, inventiveness, sensitivity, reaction,
keeping the eyes open, freshness of the mind, and so on. Practicing the same
move especially with a partner may block all these things especially for
talented beginners and intermediates. Or may not. It all depends how it is
put.

I do not see this issue was addressed before. I do not have an answer, but I
know about the problem, so I'd like you to see it too.

Practicing often, if not always in the current state of affairs, especially
group practice, is about subdiction people to a certain style more than
about anything else.

So effective tango practice may be conducted only by a teacher who knows
variety of tango styles, who is a great dancer himself, who is very
sensitive, creative. Other wise I'd advise students to come to many teachers
with the variety of tango practices.

Igor Polk
PS
One more comparison between war and art of dance. In war one seeks the final
result. When enemy is destroyed, then it comes time for pleasure. In the art
- it is evey millisecond of acting that we seek pleasure in.

Regarding marial arts, the notion is spreading that martial arts teachers do
not actually teach students the art of war. They are carried away with
something else.

What else could it be? A pleasure in the duel, in every millisecond of it -
enjoying spirit and movement. "Look what a great kick I did!". What they are
doing is nothing but DANCING.

Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 13:28:43 -0600
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is mystery, not work
To: Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
format="flowed"

I'd like to step away from the abstract terms and suggest a notion
that we can discuss the principles of "tango" all we want, but in
reality those are not the principles that guide how we choose our
dance experiences.

People make ALL decisions emotionally, and then they justify them with reason.

In all dance, I am a technique freak. I love technique. But I
certainly do not want anyone wishing to dance with me because of my
tango. And I certainly will never wish to dance socially with any man
for technique, musicality, etc. I am interested in the person.
Technique is only the means by which a person emerges in dance. That
is all. If there is technique and no person emerges, that is a
problem. If the person busts through the lack of technique, fabulous!
I'll dance with him if he is interesting.

It is the same for the women. If a woman is interesting, who cares
what technical abilities she has?! There are lots of really boring
people with excellent technical dance abilities and there are lots of
really interesting people with lousy technique. As long as the boring
and lausy technique do not mix in one person, things are fine.

Maybe people just need to practice not being boring, developing the
art of conversation and social graces, learning metaphores and poetry
(preferably in Spanish) and definitely learn to sing some tangos. And
then their dancing will be fabulous!

Tango is very, very simple. I guess we have to get through all the
complexities and engineering challenges first before we can see this
simplicity.

Best regards to all,

Nina

Quoting Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com>:

> Jeff: "War is work, not mystery" -- old Spartan saying
>
> Yes.
> I am not against practicing at all, but..
>
> Tango is mystery, not work.
>
> Igor Polk
>
> PS. Practicing what makes a mistery mistery might be much more productive
> for tango not to speak much more pleasant. Unless you are a sportsman.
>
> The problem is and it is much more difficult. Effective practice is possible
> only for advanced dancers - they know what to practice and how. But
> beginners need it most. So someone should make a set of excersizes to help
> them, but not suppress creativity, inventiveness, sensitivity, reaction,
> keeping the eyes open, freshness of the mind, and so on. Practicing the same
> move especially with a partner may block all these things especially for
> talented beginners and intermediates. Or may not. It all depends how it is
> put.
>
> I do not see this issue was addressed before. I do not have an answer, but I
> know about the problem, so I'd like you to see it too.
>
> Practicing often, if not always in the current state of affairs, especially
> group practice, is about subdiction people to a certain style more than
> about anything else.
>
> So effective tango practice may be conducted only by a teacher who knows
> variety of tango styles, who is a great dancer himself, who is very
> sensitive, creative. Other wise I'd advise students to come to many teachers
> with the variety of tango practices.
>
> Igor Polk
> PS
> One more comparison between war and art of dance. In war one seeks the final
> result. When enemy is destroyed, then it comes time for pleasure. In the art
> - it is evey millisecond of acting that we seek pleasure in.
>
> Regarding marial arts, the notion is spreading that martial arts teachers do
> not actually teach students the art of war. They are carried away with
> something else.
>
> What else could it be? A pleasure in the duel, in every millisecond of it -
> enjoying spirit and movement. "Look what a great kick I did!". What they are
> doing is nothing but DANCING.
>
>
>

Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 16:31:27 -0400
From: "Bruno Afonso" <bafonso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is mystery, not work
To: "Nina Pesochinsky" <nina@earthnet.net>
Cc: Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com>, tango-l@mit.edu
<4f5d14730707311331w60871f75s6bd28926ecae4118@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/31/07, Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> wrote:

> Tango is very, very simple. I guess we have to get through all the
> complexities and engineering challenges first before we can see this
> simplicity.

Nina,

I will refrain from commenting the "interesting" part before. But the
last quote is interesting. You are basically saying you have to
practice/dance a lot and make a huge effort to understand tango's
simplicity. This simply means that it is in fact not simple. If it
was, everyone could easily do it, and that doesn't happen as anyone
that has tried it knows. Yes, it takes practice as anything in life.

You are roughly saying that quantum physics is really easy after you
have done a PhD on it. Doesn't make much sense does it? :-)

Tango is not easy at any level. But this is exactly what drives
passionate persons to it, to be able to learn a bit every time you
dance and immensely enjoy it as you master it more and more.

Sun Tzu's Art of War was important to teach guidelines and provide
insight into warfare. And I doubt anyone with a brain will claim
warfare to be a simple subject. The few that thought so didn't live to
tell anyone about it. We don't have a Sun Tzu's book of Tango, but we
have teachers to help us guide us in our path through tango. These
teachers can help us from a purely aestetically point of view or from
a more rational one, like the science of having a fit body and mind to
dance.

This idea of anyone being enlightened by tango gods is naive to me,
but I accept that it may be true to some. Yet, their floorcraft has
eluded my observation to believe in them. There is no brilliant
athlete that didn't work hard independently of how gifted it was to
start with. And there will never be a great tango dancer that didn't
work hard: mentally and physically.

my 2 cents.
b

>
> Best regards to all,
>
> Nina
>
> Quoting Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com>:
>
> > Jeff: "War is work, not mystery" -- old Spartan saying
> >
> > Yes.
> > I am not against practicing at all, but..
> >
> > Tango is mystery, not work.
> >
> > Igor Polk
> >
> > PS. Practicing what makes a mistery mistery might be much more productive
> > for tango not to speak much more pleasant. Unless you are a sportsman.
> >
> > The problem is and it is much more difficult. Effective practice is possible
> > only for advanced dancers - they know what to practice and how. But
> > beginners need it most. So someone should make a set of excersizes to help
> > them, but not suppress creativity, inventiveness, sensitivity, reaction,
> > keeping the eyes open, freshness of the mind, and so on. Practicing the same
> > move especially with a partner may block all these things especially for
> > talented beginners and intermediates. Or may not. It all depends how it is
> > put.
> >
> > I do not see this issue was addressed before. I do not have an answer, but I
> > know about the problem, so I'd like you to see it too.
> >
> > Practicing often, if not always in the current state of affairs, especially
> > group practice, is about subdiction people to a certain style more than
> > about anything else.
> >
> > So effective tango practice may be conducted only by a teacher who knows
> > variety of tango styles, who is a great dancer himself, who is very
> > sensitive, creative. Other wise I'd advise students to come to many teachers
> > with the variety of tango practices.
> >
> > Igor Polk
> > PS
> > One more comparison between war and art of dance. In war one seeks the final
> > result. When enemy is destroyed, then it comes time for pleasure. In the art
> > - it is evey millisecond of acting that we seek pleasure in.
> >
> > Regarding marial arts, the notion is spreading that martial arts teachers do
> > not actually teach students the art of war. They are carried away with
> > something else.
> >
> > What else could it be? A pleasure in the duel, in every millisecond of it -
> > enjoying spirit and movement. "Look what a great kick I did!". What they are
> > doing is nothing but DANCING.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>

--
Bruno Afonso
https://brunoafonso.com (personal, mostly portuguese)
https://openwetware.org/wiki/User:BrunoAfonso (Professional, english)

Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 13:47:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is mystery, not work
To: tango-l@mit.edu

> Tango is very, very simple. I guess we have to get
> through all the
> complexities and engineering challenges first before we
> can see this
> simplicity.
>
> Best regards to all,
>
> Nina

Personally, I just think we're all just trying to cram the
30, 40, or 50 years it took the milongueros to dance as
well as they do into, say, 5, 10, or 20 years. Big
difference in starting this dance at age 6 instead of age
30, 40, or whatever. None of us are getting any younger.

Trini de Pittsburgh






Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.

Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 17:40:55 -0600
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is mystery, not work
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Trini,

The older you get, the better tango will feel for you and look on
you. You have to live life - laugh, enjoy, struggle, suffer, raise
children, burry people you loved, make and break friendships,
transform, and then transform again. And then... your feet will
dance your life and you will be an amazing person to dance with and
amazing to see dancing.

Warmest regards,

Nina


At 02:47 PM 7/31/2007, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:

> > Tango is very, very simple. I guess we have to get
> > through all the
> > complexities and engineering challenges first before we
> > can see this
> > simplicity.
> >
> > Best regards to all,
> >
> > Nina
>
>Personally, I just think we're all just trying to cram the
>30, 40, or 50 years it took the milongueros to dance as
>well as they do into, say, 5, 10, or 20 years. Big
>difference in starting this dance at age 6 instead of age
>30, 40, or whatever. None of us are getting any younger.
>
>Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your
>story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.

Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 18:29:22 -0600
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is mystery, not work
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Bruno,

You are so complicated!:)
I never said tango was easy. I said it was simple.
It's about the man-woman thing. Every step and every technical
detail is about that.

Nina


At 02:31 PM 7/31/2007, Bruno Afonso wrote:

>On 7/31/07, Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> wrote:
>
> > Tango is very, very simple. I guess we have to get through all the
> > complexities and engineering challenges first before we can see this
> > simplicity.
>
>Nina,
>
>I will refrain from commenting the "interesting" part before. But the
>last quote is interesting. You are basically saying you have to
>practice/dance a lot and make a huge effort to understand tango's
>simplicity. This simply means that it is in fact not simple. If it
>was, everyone could easily do it, and that doesn't happen as anyone
>that has tried it knows. Yes, it takes practice as anything in life.
>
>You are roughly saying that quantum physics is really easy after you
>have done a PhD on it. Doesn't make much sense does it? :-)
>
>Tango is not easy at any level. But this is exactly what drives
>passionate persons to it, to be able to learn a bit every time you
>dance and immensely enjoy it as you master it more and more.
>
>Sun Tzu's Art of War was important to teach guidelines and provide
>insight into warfare. And I doubt anyone with a brain will claim
>warfare to be a simple subject. The few that thought so didn't live to
>tell anyone about it. We don't have a Sun Tzu's book of Tango, but we
>have teachers to help us guide us in our path through tango. These
>teachers can help us from a purely aestetically point of view or from
>a more rational one, like the science of having a fit body and mind to
>dance.
>
>This idea of anyone being enlightened by tango gods is naive to me,
>but I accept that it may be true to some. Yet, their floorcraft has
>eluded my observation to believe in them. There is no brilliant
>athlete that didn't work hard independently of how gifted it was to
>start with. And there will never be a great tango dancer that didn't
>work hard: mentally and physically.
>
>my 2 cents.
>b
>
>
> >
> > Best regards to all,
> >
> > Nina
> >
> > Quoting Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com>:
> >
> > > Jeff: "War is work, not mystery" -- old Spartan saying
> > >
> > > Yes.
> > > I am not against practicing at all, but..
> > >
> > > Tango is mystery, not work.
> > >
> > > Igor Polk
> > >
> > > PS. Practicing what makes a mistery mistery might be much more productive
> > > for tango not to speak much more pleasant. Unless you are a sportsman.
> > >
> > > The problem is and it is much more difficult. Effective
> practice is possible
> > > only for advanced dancers - they know what to practice and how. But
> > > beginners need it most. So someone should make a set of
> excersizes to help
> > > them, but not suppress creativity, inventiveness, sensitivity, reaction,
> > > keeping the eyes open, freshness of the mind, and so on.
> Practicing the same
> > > move especially with a partner may block all these things especially for
> > > talented beginners and intermediates. Or may not. It all
> depends how it is
> > > put.
> > >
> > > I do not see this issue was addressed before. I do not have an
> answer, but I
> > > know about the problem, so I'd like you to see it too.
> > >
> > > Practicing often, if not always in the current state of
> affairs, especially
> > > group practice, is about subdiction people to a certain style more than
> > > about anything else.
> > >
> > > So effective tango practice may be conducted only by a teacher who knows
> > > variety of tango styles, who is a great dancer himself, who is very
> > > sensitive, creative. Other wise I'd advise students to come to
> many teachers
> > > with the variety of tango practices.
> > >
> > > Igor Polk
> > > PS
> > > One more comparison between war and art of dance. In war one
> seeks the final
> > > result. When enemy is destroyed, then it comes time for
> pleasure. In the art
> > > - it is evey millisecond of acting that we seek pleasure in.
> > >
> > > Regarding marial arts, the notion is spreading that martial
> arts teachers do
> > > not actually teach students the art of war. They are carried away with
> > > something else.
> > >
> > > What else could it be? A pleasure in the duel, in every
> millisecond of it -
> > > enjoying spirit and movement. "Look what a great kick I did!".
> What they are
> > > doing is nothing but DANCING.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>--
>Bruno Afonso
>https://brunoafonso.com (personal, mostly portuguese)
>https://openwetware.org/wiki/User:BrunoAfonso (Professional, english)

Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 19:46:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is mystery, not work
To: tango-l@mit.edu

You're quite right, Nina. I should have said that all the
practicing/training and arguing is our trying to cram the
mechanics of tango into a shorter time span. One can't
rush the actual living.

Trini de Pittsburgh

--- Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> wrote:

> Trini,
>
> The older you get, the better tango will feel for you and
> look on
> you. You have to live life - laugh, enjoy, struggle,
> suffer, raise
> children, burry people you loved, make and break
> friendships,
> transform, and then transform again. And then... your
> feet will
> dance your life and you will be an amazing person to
> dance with and
> amazing to see dancing.
>
> Warmest regards,
>
> Nina
>
>
> At 02:47 PM 7/31/2007, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
>
> > > Tango is very, very simple. I guess we have to get
> > > through all the
> > > complexities and engineering challenges first before
> we
> > > can see this
> > > simplicity.
> > >
> > > Best regards to all,
> > >
> > > Nina
> >
> >Personally, I just think we're all just trying to cram
> the
> >30, 40, or 50 years it took the milongueros to dance as
> >well as they do into, say, 5, 10, or 20 years. Big
> >difference in starting this dance at age 6 instead of
> age
> >30, 40, or whatever. None of us are getting any
> younger.
> >
> >Trini de Pittsburgh
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> >Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their
> life, your
> >story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
>
>
>

Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.

Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 11:20:04 -0500
From: Barbara Garvey <barbara@tangobar-productions.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is mystery, not work
To: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu

Thank you Nina,

Tango is simple, the more you know about it, the more obvious its
simplicity becomes.
It is not easy, it is maybe even hard.

A good many of the weirder discussions on this list
are a result of lexigraphic sloppiness, poor reading skills,
interpretations of ideas filtered
through one's own prejudices, and of course the old bugaboo illustrated
by the story of
six guys describing an elephant.
Barbara

Nina Pesochinsky wrote:

>Bruno,
>
>You are so complicated!:)
>I never said tango was easy. I said it was simple.
>It's about the man-woman thing. Every step and every technical
>detail is about that.
>
>Nina
>
>
>
>
>
>