4126 Tango -L
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 15:07:01 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Tango -L
Aron says:
Hi Tine!
The first really interesting subject since quite a while on tango-l! :))
To which Tine answers:
Hi Aron
" Thanks, I got back on the list a week or 2 ago but have been regretting it
somewhat - it's the same old hogwash being recycled all over again.
Evidently
the list hasn't gotten anywhere new in the past half year. I'll probably not
stay. Still, I'm here tonight."
*Those of us that wrote something during the last week have the following
choices, I returned one week ago to the USA and to the list.
1 - to apologize. Dear Aron and dear Tine we humbly apologize for writing
about things that do not interest you and that are recycled hogwash.
2 - To remind everyone that this is a list to discuss any aspect of
Argentine Tango, composed by over a thousand members coming from different
countries, different cultures, different degree of knowledge and education,
different dancing skill, different areas of interest and different needs.
That you may therefore find notes of interest to you (then read and discuss
if necessary) or notes that do not interest you at all then discard knowing
that that note may be of interest to some other members of the list.
It does not matter what you do, above all try to be respectful and
considerate as it is proper for a civilized person.
Use valid arguments to refute what you do not agree with but try to avoid
using general insulting or disrespectful sentences.
3- Read, ignore the insult and delete.
Example: I disagree with many of the things that Tine said in her last few
notes. My tendency would have been to ignore and delete but...
...But I am going to give reasons for my opinion (which is personal) .
In all my years as Argentine and as a tango dancer I have found many people
that ignored many tango moves and many tango figures but I have never found
one that did not know the "Front ocho" or "The sandwich" probably the most
popular move of them all (all over the world) .
Yet we have Tine that teaches a large group of people and ignores those two
movements.
My objection: Tine your students dance close embrace using the ocho cortado
in your place.
As soon as they go dancing to any other club they are going to have to do a
regular front ocho because I dare to say that everybody else uses front
ochos and many do not know the "ocho cortado". The men from your group will
be leading Ocho cortado and the women will attempt to do a front ocho in
close embrace in an awkward way.
As to the sandwich: I have never heard that anyone had any problem doing
that, the most popular move. The problem, dear Tine as you describe it very
well is not the move itself is:
1- the use of shoes that are not proper to dance Argentine Tango. Tango
shoes should be closed both in the front and in the back. More recently I
observed in Buenos Aires some shoes with small openings for the toes in the
front. Tango shoes should allow proper pivoting without the foot moving
inside the shoe and should protect the foot. They cannot be open in front,
the back or the sides. There are companies mostly outside Argentina that
sell improper shoes thinking that any ballroom dance shoe is also a Tango
shoe. Like Derik would say "my opinion".
2- Defective technique to execute the move.
Finally if the list is boring, uninteresting, recycle hogwash for the past
year the type of comments that both of you made do nothing to encourage any
change, quite the opposite discourages any of us to continue writing.
This is precisely what happened to me during the 4 months I spent in
Argentina. I had many (in my opinion) interesting things to discuss but I
made an effort not to write and I did not write for all that time (about 5
months). now back in USA I wrote a few notes about tango Styles to start
hearing the same recycled Hogwash.
Do you know something Tine I will do like you so arrogantly threaten to do
again and again, I will try to use my time in something better as well. I,
nobody needs this agravation.
Have a good summer. I may run into you at a milonga, you better be prepared
to do the sandwhich wearing proper shoes. :))
Sergio
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 08:43:47 -0700
From: Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango -L
Hola Sergio
Thank you for your post. Thank you in particular for exercising your rights in expressing your disagreement without calling me something personally insulting in public!
Actually I do enjoy your posts a lot and I find them very informative, especially the historic and field observations. I admire your patience in reiterating your valuable information in a civilized manner in the face of many stale reactions from ppl stuck in their opinions. Another person with infinite patience is Steve from Texas, I've never had the pleasure to meet the guy but he must be a total teddy bear.
I am usually pretty civilized (even when I am irritating ppl's egos) and there was I time that I patiently described to the list my information and point of view on all sorts of things, but at some point I decided it was really no use to keep having the same discussions, people are different and that's the way it is and should be. Everybody runs their community as they see fit, and everybody has the organizers they deserve. And while there are fresh opinions sometimes, the list is dominated by the people who take time to write up their same old opinions over and over again, and it's usually the same few individuals over and over again, where is the novelty in that? I do a lot of idealistic and time-consuming stuff and the beneficiaries are my fresh-faced community who come to have fun and a social life while dancing tango. I don't really care if what I do serves the Greater Glory Of Argentine Tango The Way The Awesome Argentines Do It Like Nobody Else Because It's In
Their Bones and Not In Yours. Hehehehe. Hogwash.
Our followers do front ochos just fine. The leaders pick them up here or somewhere else and they know what to do, they just don't learn them on day 1 so that's all they do. About the shoes I was wearing, they are Comme Il Faut, and I agree with you that they are not "sensible" shoes, being outrageously sexy and fashionable and minimally protective, but they are all over dance floors in every community in the nation, and they are here to stay. Nobody can make them go away!
I do hope to meet you at a milonga sometimes and I will dance with you and not wince when you do a sandwich even if I am wearing my pale gold stiletto-heeled Comme Il Faut tango shoes from Buenos Aires. We can chat, too. Please let me know when you come to NYC or Boston I will drive up/down for the occasion. No, seriously. I am sure we will get along great.
Have a nice day!
Tine
Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
Aron says:
Hi Tine!
The first really interesting subject since quite a while on tango-l! :))
To which Tine answers:
Hi Aron
" Thanks, I got back on the list a week or 2 ago but have been regretting it
somewhat - it's the same old hogwash being recycled all over again.
Evidently
the list hasn't gotten anywhere new in the past half year. I'll probably not
stay. Still, I'm here tonight."
*Those of us that wrote something during the last week have the following
choices, I returned one week ago to the USA and to the list.
1 - to apologize. Dear Aron and dear Tine we humbly apologize for writing
about things that do not interest you and that are recycled hogwash.
2 - To remind everyone that this is a list to discuss any aspect of
Argentine Tango, composed by over a thousand members coming from different
countries, different cultures, different degree of knowledge and education,
different dancing skill, different areas of interest and different needs.
That you may therefore find notes of interest to you (then read and discuss
if necessary) or notes that do not interest you at all then discard knowing
that that note may be of interest to some other members of the list.
It does not matter what you do, above all try to be respectful and
considerate as it is proper for a civilized person.
Use valid arguments to refute what you do not agree with but try to avoid
using general insulting or disrespectful sentences.
3- Read, ignore the insult and delete.
Example: I disagree with many of the things that Tine said in her last few
notes. My tendency would have been to ignore and delete but...
...But I am going to give reasons for my opinion (which is personal) .
In all my years as Argentine and as a tango dancer I have found many people
that ignored many tango moves and many tango figures but I have never found
one that did not know the "Front ocho" or "The sandwich" probably the most
popular move of them all (all over the world) .
Yet we have Tine that teaches a large group of people and ignores those two
movements.
My objection: Tine your students dance close embrace using the ocho cortado
in your place.
As soon as they go dancing to any other club they are going to have to do a
regular front ocho because I dare to say that everybody else uses front
ochos and many do not know the "ocho cortado". The men from your group will
be leading Ocho cortado and the women will attempt to do a front ocho in
close embrace in an awkward way.
As to the sandwich: I have never heard that anyone had any problem doing
that, the most popular move. The problem, dear Tine as you describe it very
well is not the move itself is:
1- the use of shoes that are not proper to dance Argentine Tango. Tango
shoes should be closed both in the front and in the back. More recently I
observed in Buenos Aires some shoes with small openings for the toes in the
front. Tango shoes should allow proper pivoting without the foot moving
inside the shoe and should protect the foot. They cannot be open in front,
the back or the sides. There are companies mostly outside Argentina that
sell improper shoes thinking that any ballroom dance shoe is also a Tango
shoe. Like Derik would say "my opinion".
2- Defective technique to execute the move.
Finally if the list is boring, uninteresting, recycle hogwash for the past
year the type of comments that both of you made do nothing to encourage any
change, quite the opposite discourages any of us to continue writing.
This is precisely what happened to me during the 4 months I spent in
Argentina. I had many (in my opinion) interesting things to discuss but I
made an effort not to write and I did not write for all that time (about 5
months). now back in USA I wrote a few notes about tango Styles to start
hearing the same recycled Hogwash.
Do you know something Tine I will do like you so arrogantly threaten to do
again and again, I will try to use my time in something better as well. I,
nobody needs this agravation.
Have a good summer. I may run into you at a milonga, you better be prepared
to do the sandwhich wearing proper shoes. :))
Sergio
************************
www.yaletangoclub.org
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 08:55:08 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango -L
Dear Sergio:
I agree with your comments to Tine below:
"I may run into you at a milonga, you better be
prepared to do the sand which wearing proper shoes.
:))
Sergio"
It is always amazing to me how "self appointed tango
teachers" can teach their students tango nonsense, by
leaving out stuff. No wonder some students are
incapable of dancing the entire dance. They never
learn how to move.
Also, if the these teachers are challenged about their
uninformed and ignorant practices, they do not want to
talk anymore, and they begin to threaten others with
various punishments etc. Bizarre...lol.
ie: Tine...
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 09:22:19 -0700
From: Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango -L
Derik,
Sadly, you are one of those "self-appointed tango experts". I am guessing you don't teach and prefer to let others do all the hard work while you stand on the sidelines and find fault with everything they do. That is so easy and nothing to be proud of. The world belongs to people who implement their ideas.
You are challenged every day about your uninformed and ignorant opinions, and we all dearly wish you would threaten not to talk anymore. Please, punish us!
Tine
Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
Dear Sergio:
I agree with your comments to Tine below:
"I may run into you at a milonga, you better be
prepared to do the sand which wearing proper shoes.
:))
Sergio"
It is always amazing to me how "self appointed tango
teachers" can teach their students tango nonsense, by
leaving out stuff. No wonder some students are
incapable of dancing the entire dance. They never
learn how to move.
Also, if the these teachers are challenged about their
uninformed and ignorant practices, they do not want to
talk anymore, and they begin to threaten others with
various punishments etc. Bizarre...lol.
ie: Tine...
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
************************
www.yaletangoclub.org
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:11:43 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango -L
Dear Tine:
Excuse me, but you are the one who has appointed
yourself the expert teacher, and is leading her
students in the wrong direction, not me. You should
know your stuff. I have to dance with people who are
limited in their abilities, because of teachers who
leave out important parts of the dance, and I get
tired of it.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> Derik,
> Sadly, you are one of those "self-appointed tango
> experts". I am guessing you don't teach and prefer
> to let others do all the hard work while you stand
> on the sidelines and find fault with everything they
> do. That is so easy and nothing to be proud of. The
> world belongs to people who implement their ideas.
> You are challenged every day about your uninformed
> and ignorant opinions, and we all dearly wish you
> would threaten not to talk anymore. Please, punish
> us!
> Tine
>
> Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> Dear Sergio:
>
> I agree with your comments to Tine below:
>
> "I may run into you at a milonga, you better be
> prepared to do the sand which wearing proper shoes.
> :))
>
> Sergio"
>
> It is always amazing to me how "self appointed tango
> teachers" can teach their students tango nonsense,
> by
> leaving out stuff. No wonder some students are
> incapable of dancing the entire dance. They never
> learn how to move.
>
> Also, if the these teachers are challenged about
> their
> uninformed and ignorant practices, they do not want
> to
> talk anymore, and they begin to threaten others with
> various punishments etc. Bizarre...lol.
>
> ie: Tine...
>
> Derik
> d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
>
> protection around
>
>
>
> ************************
> www.yaletangoclub.org
>
>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 14:04:25 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango -L
Derik Rawson wrote:
>Dear Tine:
>
>Excuse me, but you are the one who has appointed
>yourself the expert teacher, and is leading her
>students in the wrong direction, not me. You should
>know your stuff. I have to dance with people who are
>limited in their abilities, because of teachers who
>leave out important parts of the dance, and I get
>tired of it.
>
>
All I hear from you is criticism, Derik. But the price of criticism
is is merely keystrokes, so much easier than making a tango
community happen.
Show us your prowess if you're such a tango stud that knows
all there is to know about the dance. I want to see some video
that shows the quality and completeness of your dance.
I want to see everything: volcadas, soltadas, leg wraps, boleos
linear and circular, barridas, paradas, front and back, close
embrace, open embrace, liquid embrace, molinetes, contra-
molinetes, salon, milonguero, nuevo, etc.
Don't hold back. Show us what you got. If you have real quality,
everyone here will bow down to you and lick your tango shoes
clean.
ROTFLMFWHAO,
Christopher
>Derik
>d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
>
>--- Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Derik,
>> Sadly, you are one of those "self-appointed tango
>>experts". I am guessing you don't teach and prefer
>>to let others do all the hard work while you stand
>>on the sidelines and find fault with everything they
>>do. That is so easy and nothing to be proud of. The
>>world belongs to people who implement their ideas.
>> You are challenged every day about your uninformed
>>and ignorant opinions, and we all dearly wish you
>>would threaten not to talk anymore. Please, punish
>>us!
>>Tine
>>
>>Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>> Dear Sergio:
>>
>>I agree with your comments to Tine below:
>>
>>"I may run into you at a milonga, you better be
>>prepared to do the sand which wearing proper shoes.
>>:))
>>
>>Sergio"
>>
>>It is always amazing to me how "self appointed tango
>>teachers" can teach their students tango nonsense,
>>by
>>leaving out stuff. No wonder some students are
>>incapable of dancing the entire dance. They never
>>learn how to move.
>>
>>Also, if the these teachers are challenged about
>>their
>>uninformed and ignorant practices, they do not want
>>to
>>talk anymore, and they begin to threaten others with
>>various punishments etc. Bizarre...lol.
>>
>>ie: Tine...
>>
>>Derik
>>d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
>>
>>protection around
>>
>>
>>
>> ************************
>>www.yaletangoclub.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2006 12:34:21 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango -L
Dear Christopher:
Excuse me, but I single-handedly brought all of the
items that you listed below "for real" to Houston,
Texas a month ago and I financed it all by myself, so
please do not tell me that I am not doing anything to
teach tango to dancers. I do not like bad local
teachers (who are basically tango amateurs) confusing
people with a bunch of nonsense. so I did something
about it here in Houston. What risk have you taken to
bring quality Argentine Tango to your city
Christopher?
PS - This is not about me. or how I dance Argentine
Tango. It is about the quality of teaching.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com>
wrote:
> Derik Rawson wrote:
>
> >Dear Tine:
> >
> >Excuse me, but you are the one who has appointed
> >yourself the expert teacher, and is leading her
> >students in the wrong direction, not me. You
> should
> >know your stuff. I have to dance with people who
> are
> >limited in their abilities, because of teachers who
> >leave out important parts of the dance, and I get
> >tired of it.
> >
> >
> All I hear from you is criticism, Derik. But the
> price of criticism
> is is merely keystrokes, so much easier than making
> a tango
> community happen.
>
> Show us your prowess if you're such a tango stud
> that knows
> all there is to know about the dance. I want to see
> some video
> that shows the quality and completeness of your
> dance.
>
> I want to see everything: volcadas, soltadas, leg
> wraps, boleos
> linear and circular, barridas, paradas, front and
> back, close
> embrace, open embrace, liquid embrace, molinetes,
> contra-
> molinetes, salon, milonguero, nuevo, etc.
>
> Don't hold back. Show us what you got. If you have
> real quality,
> everyone here will bow down to you and lick your
> tango shoes
> clean.
>
> ROTFLMFWHAO,
>
> Christopher
>
> >Derik
> >d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
> >
> >--- Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@YAHOO.COM>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>Derik,
> >> Sadly, you are one of those "self-appointed
> tango
> >>experts". I am guessing you don't teach and prefer
> >>to let others do all the hard work while you stand
> >>on the sidelines and find fault with everything
> they
> >>do. That is so easy and nothing to be proud of.
> The
> >>world belongs to people who implement their ideas.
> >> You are challenged every day about your
> uninformed
> >>and ignorant opinions, and we all dearly wish you
> >>would threaten not to talk anymore. Please, punish
> >>us!
> >>Tine
> >>
> >>Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> >> Dear Sergio:
> >>
> >>I agree with your comments to Tine below:
> >>
> >>"I may run into you at a milonga, you better be
> >>prepared to do the sand which wearing proper
> shoes.
> >>:))
> >>
> >>Sergio"
> >>
> >>It is always amazing to me how "self appointed
> tango
> >>teachers" can teach their students tango nonsense,
> >>by
> >>leaving out stuff. No wonder some students are
> >>incapable of dancing the entire dance. They never
> >>learn how to move.
> >>
> >>Also, if the these teachers are challenged about
> >>their
> >>uninformed and ignorant practices, they do not
> want
> >>to
> >>talk anymore, and they begin to threaten others
> with
> >>various punishments etc. Bizarre...lol.
> >>
> >>ie: Tine...
> >>
> >>Derik
> >>d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
> >>
> >>protection around
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ************************
> >>www.yaletangoclub.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> protection around
> >
> >
>
>
>
