2814 Tango leading and following
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 08:46:09 -0700
From: Jay Jenkins <jayjenkins888@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Tango leading and following
Ricardo Tanturi, first we learned that there was something wrong with Zival's music because you could not hear it. Since most other people could hear it you had your ears checked . Fortunately it ended up being something wrong with your computer. We also patiently learned how you found the problem and more interestingly and painfully how you fix it.
Now we learn that you are in so much disagreement with Julian that it is very difficult for you to restrain yourself and not to insult him. Bravo Ricardo! It is such a relief to know that although I strongly disagree with you, we both can expose our views and I do not have to insult you.
Julian's note is one of the longest I have seen on the list, it has many interesting points but Ricardo finds it to be a gross oversimplification. I guess that to complicate a little, one should write several pages more. More importantly he does not think that the subject has anything to do with tango.
I try to remember what tango was, I am confused now. Julian seems to say that it is something that happens between two people, one masculine the other feminine (he does not say it has to be a masculine man or a feminine woman) but he states that tango implies two roles: that of the woman and that of the man. Those roles apparently could be fulfilled by anyone.
So we have a man sitting by himself at a little table at the milonga, he is shy and timidly looks around till he finds a woman that locks her eyes on him, she nods and with resolution walks towards him. He stands, fixes his hear, straightens his coat and waiving his hips walks towards her. Now they are in front of each other, She offers her left hand he deposits delicately his right one in it, she puts her Right arm around his waist and start dancing. She leads with determination, he closes his eyes and totally surrenders to her. They do a calesita, she supports him with her strong body, while he delicately starts doing embellishments with his left foot. They continue dancing, she stares in his eyes , does some seduction moves and he responds with a nice high front boleo, his left leg goes up and then comes down caressing his right one.
At times he does the opposite, caresses her leg upwards and (in a very feminine way) caresses his going down. The music is nearing the end, he throws himself to the floor as he looks up to her face with a smile of gratitude (or he could jump and do a sentada on her lleft leg)..
The tango ends, she walks him to his table and then returns to hers, lights a cigarette, and starts looking around for other prospective partners.
Oh! I am sorry, I forgot that Ricardo forbade us to discuss this subject, I apologize.
I apologize.
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2006 11:15:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Razor Girl <dilettante666@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] leading and following
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Hi,
I just finished catching up on some of the recent
posts about leading. Without respect to any one of
them in particular, I just have one thing to say.
Dear Leaders, just because she follows it doesn't make
it a good lead.
Moreover, I think the role of following is largely
overlooked on this list. I would like to remind
leaders that a woman always has a choice whether to
follow what you lead, and how to follow it. There is
nothing you can lead without her consent. The very
best you can do is to make requests....that is the
essence of good leading.
Regards,
Rose
Portland, OR
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 03:29:51 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] leading and following
To: "Razor Girl" <dilettante666@yahoo.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
> Dear Leaders, just because she follows it doesn't make
> it a good lead.
>
> Moreover, I think the role of following is largely
> overlooked on this list.
True.
I would like to remind
> leaders that a woman always has a choice whether to
> follow what you lead, and how to follow it. There is
> nothing you can lead without her consent. The very
> best you can do is to make requests....that is the
> essence of good leading.
Well, yes, true too, but on the other hand- if the woman does not (want to)
follow, then what is the point of dancing tango together?
Not everyone dances this "he invites, she follows, then he follows". Once
you establish a strong connection, the leading and following happens
practically simultaneoulsy. One the way, she can insert adornments, she can
slow down or speed up a little on the lead, she can propose certain moves,
and a sensitive leader will notice that and play along with it, but in
essence, she still follows all the time.
IMO, the problem is more that men who are poor dancers are not really
leading. They either don't transmit signals, or they push and pull her off
her axis here and there. Or they try to lead her, but in reality, their lead
points into a different direction from what they have in mind, and then they
wonder where she is going. There is no proper material for the follower to
work with.
But once there is a flow within a couple, the leading-following process is
so closely connected, that the woman has no time to think or make decisions
about whether she follows or not, she "just follows". Remember Pablo Veron
and what he yelled at Sally in that movie after the show?
But let me ask another question: last week, another woman at the milonga
told me:"I like dancing with this man and that man... but when I dance with
a beginner, my feet hurt." I have noticed the same thing: with certain men,
my feet start to hurt while we dance. With others, this does not happen. Can
anyone explain the mechanism behind that? I am not aware of the men leaning
or bearing down on me. Could it be that these men make me pivot in an
unnatural, anatomically incompatible way, placing unnecessary extra weight
on the wrong places of my feet? Or hold my body in the wrong angle in
relation to my moves or my walk?
Astrid
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2006 11:46:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] leading and following
Hi Rose,
It's not just on this list. I think the woman's role is
largely overlooked in many classes, workshops and even some
communities.
Following flawlessly is not sufficient for dancing the
womans role. In my opinion, it is how the woman chooses
whether, *when* and how to follow that distinguishes the
best dancers from the mere followers.
Sean
--- Razor Girl <dilettante666@yahoo.com> wrote:
I think the role of following is largely overlooked on this
list. I would like to remind leaders that a woman always
has a choice whether to follow what you lead, and how to
follow it. There is nothing you can lead without her
consent. The very best you can do is to make
requests....that is the essence of good leading.
Regards,
Rose
Portland, OR
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2006 22:35:02 +0000
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Leading and following
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Razor Girl says:
"I would like to remind
leaders that a woman always has a choice whether to
follow what you lead, and how to follow it. There is
nothing you can lead without her consent. The very
best you can do is to make requests....that is the
essence of good leading."
I agree with the above but, I invite a girl to dance tango. I "lead" her
(for instance)
to step side with her right.
She refuses, (this has never happened to me so far), then what do we do?
I "suggest" that she steps backwards with her left so that I step forward
with my right, she refuses.
(this has never happened to me so far).
then what do we do?
I "invite" her to cross her left foot back in a back ocho. She refuses, then
what do we do?
At this point should I take her back to her seat? or perhaps should I ask
what is the problem? as I get out of the line of dance.
Are you able to walk? can I do something for you? to see if you can step in
any direction?
I am really interested in knowing the meaning of all this because to tell
you the truth I never so a woman to refuse to follow a lead so far. I wonder
if the vocabulary utilized (suggest, invite, instead of lead) is out of
courtesy so that the follower feel better or if it really it has some other
meaning.
I assume that we are talking about normal people that know how to dance
properly.
Best regards, Sergio
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2006 19:33:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading and following
Negotiation may be a more useful word than refusal.
I am sure every guy on this list has had an invitation
changed by a "normal" dancer. The guy thinks he invited a
forward step and she answers it as a back step. That
dynamic is the most common form of "refusing" an invitation
and is more of a negotiation.
Rachel Smith (Jaimes Friedgen?s former partner) had a nice
way of putting it. Say a guy invites a girl to a movie,
but she says, "how about coffee, instead?" He gladly
accepts because he still gets a date with her.
Most women will not refuse an invitation unless something
feels wrong to her. There is one man in our community that
I refuse to allow sacadas or anything involving the space
between my feet because I do not trust his balance. With
another, I refuse to let my right arm be treated as a pump.
With another, I have refused to be lead wildly around the
room. All done without words. All of these men still ask
me to dance, and, since we negotiate just fine, I can enjoy
dancing with them.
Using vocabulary such as "invite" or "request" reinforces
the notion that tango is a dialogue and not a monologue.
She "answers" - it reinforces to the women that their
interpretation of the music or the dance is an important
contribution. To the man, it reinforces their
responsibility to listen to and respect the woman.
In an earlier post, I alluded to a problem of brutality in
our community. The problem was solved because the women
began to demand to be treated better. Part of that was due
to a constant reinforcement that women?s interpretation of
the dance was also important, that she was more important
than the step. If people do not learn that as beginners,
it's tough to get that through their heads when they
consider themselves to be "advanced".
BTW, getting women to "speak" more during the dance is
something we?re still working to solve. That appears to be
much more difficult than getting the man to listen.
Trini de Pittsburgh
P.S. to Andrea - I just off of work, so checking Tango-L is
what I do to relax after work, in lieu of watching TV. I
can tell you that in some ways, tango taught me that I was
spending way too much time at work (my old professional
job), so I quit. But I have yet to find a good balance
between tango and non-tango.
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2006 20:22:37 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading and following
Trini,
In your examples:
"..There is one man in our community that
I refuse to allow sacadas or anything involving the space
between my feet because I do not trust his balance. With
another, I refuse to let my right arm be treated as a pump.
With another, I have refused to be lead wildly around the
room..."
You did not negotiate the Result of a Particular Lead.
You negotiated the Style of Dancing. Which is a different thing.
In general, it means you Did Not Let to Lead the particular things. See the
difference?
I am referring to not to "he led me all around the room in linear
directions",
but "he led me to the forward step, then to the cross, then to the forward
ocho" - three leads at least.
Then, if you wish, "he surprised me: instead of smoothly leading to the side
step of molinete, he over rotated me to another forward ocho..". Woops..
Igor.
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2006 04:12:04 +0000
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Leading and following
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Trini says,
"Most women will not refuse an invitation unless
something
feels wrong to her. There is one man in our community that
I refuse to allow sacadas or anything involving the space
between my feet because I do not trust his balance. With
another, I refuse to let my right arm be treated as a pump.
With another, I have refused to be lead wildly around the
room."
These are examples of people that do not know how to dance properly.
Then you are situated in a higher level than they are, not only because you
are a better dancer but because you are their teacher. As they are learning
they assume that your refusal or negotiation is due to something wrong that
they do.
Trini says "Using vocabulary such as "invite" or "request" reinforces
the notion that tango is a dialogue and not a monologue.
She "answers" - it reinforces to the women that their
interpretation of the music or the dance is an important
contribution. To the man, it reinforces their
responsibility to listen to and respect the woman."
I entirely agree. Again you are talking about people that are in the process
of learning and not those that know how to dance.
Trini says "In an earlier post, I alluded to a problem of brutality in
our community. The problem was solved because the women
began to demand to be treated better. Part of that was due
to a constant reinforcement that womens interpretation of
the dance was also important, that she was more important
than the step. If people do not learn that as beginners,
it's tough to get that through their heads when they
consider themselves to be "advanced"."
This also talks about people that do not know how to dance.
Summary: It seems to me that the situation where a woman would refuse to
follow a lead given by a leader that knows how to dance is extremely
unlikely.
"I am sure every guy on this list has had an invitation
changed by a "normal" dancer. The guy thinks he invited a
forward step and she answers it as a back step. That
dynamic is the most common form of "refusing" an invitation
and is more of a negotiation."
I have never heard of such a thing happening and this has never happened to
me either.
If I lead a step and the woman answers with something different from what I
lead I have to assume that something is wrong.
Either she does not know how to dance or she is trying to "back lead" (this
is to lead the leader when she is the follower) or she is trying to irritate
me on purpose : all reasons for me not to ask her to dance with me again.
Unless we are friends at a practica and then I would ask her "what is wrong
with you today?"
I assume that I lead properly and that I allow time and space in the dance
for the woman to express herself as she wishes. I am concious that I am the
leader and she is the follower, any deviation of those principles (IMO) are
in violation of the rules of the dance.
But I understand that you Trini as a teacher wish to reinforce the idea
that the woman should be respected, she should have the chance to express
herself artistically, she should never be lead to do figures, steps or moves
that she cannot follow with ease, etc.
All this is instruction on how to dance properly but once you know how to
dance I doubt that a woman would refuse to follow the lead. You never
refused any one of my leads when I danced with you.
Saludos cordiales, Sergio.
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2006 21:26:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading and following
Hi Igor,
Perhaps I should elaborate.
With the man with whom I do not allow sacadas, I close my
step more quickly and move more quickly to the next step.
When he paradas and tries to sandwich, I continue to turn
around him so that he never gets the chance to even start
his sandwich. I am changing his intended step. I can
always read his intention very early on.
With the man who leads wildly around the room, I often take
much smaller steps than what he invites. I keep my eyes
open to navigate and can choose where to go if necessary.
And every once in a while with other guys, I'll ignore an
invitation in order to avoid a collision.
As for the pumping arm, it probably is more of a style than
a lead, as you pointed out.
It helps that I also dance the man's part, so it's not hard
for me to change things as necessary.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
> Trini,
>
> In your examples:
>
> "..There is one man in our community that
> I refuse to allow sacadas or anything involving the space
> between my feet because I do not trust his balance. With
> another, I refuse to let my right arm be treated as a
> pump.
> With another, I have refused to be lead wildly around
> the
> room..."
>
> You did not negotiate the Result of a Particular Lead.
> You negotiated the Style of Dancing. Which is a
> different thing.
> In general, it means you Did Not Let to Lead the
> particular things. See the
> difference?
>
> I am referring to not to "he led me all around the room
> in linear
> directions",
> but "he led me to the forward step, then to the cross,
> then to the forward
> ocho" - three leads at least.
> Then, if you wish, "he surprised me: instead of smoothly
> leading to the side
> step of molinete, he over rotated me to another forward
> ocho..". Woops..
>
> Igor.
>
>
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 00:18:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading and following
--- Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
> If I lead a step and the woman answers with something
> different from what I lead I have to assume that
something is wrong.
>
> Either she does not know how to dance or she is trying to
> "back lead" (this is to lead the leader when she is the >
follower) or she is trying to irritate me on purpose :
> all reasons for me not to ask her to dance with me
> again.
Given the many different ways of leading that was recently
discussed, another possibility is that perhaps she was not
invited in a way that she understood. In which case, I
would not say that she doesn?t know how to dance, but
rather, that there was miscommunication. Perhaps she
needed an eyebrow lead :)
> All this is instruction on how to dance properly but once
> you know how to dance I doubt that a woman would refuse
> to follow the lead. You never refused any one of my
> leads when I danced with you.
That?s because we haven?t dance much since I learned how :)
Actually, if the woman is sensitive enough, she can change
the invitation without the man realizing it. I am not
there, yet.
Pleasant dreams,
Trini
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 12:25:58 -0400
From: "Ronda Patino" <rondap@mindspring.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] leading and following
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Hi Astrid,
I have noticed this too! My theory is that when a leader allows you to step
right with the music and on your point of balance there is great pleasure
and no foot pain, but if the position or timing are off, you may be either
sliding on your foot as he is trying to rush or delay you in or out of a
step or pushing you off the balance point in which case your toes may grip
to try to stabilize your landing or position. So, I think the pain comes
from muscles contracting and ligaments being twisted as we try to maintain
our grip so to speak and from the friction produced by errors in timing.
For me some of the greatest pleasure from dancing is when I am free to land
exactly on my point of balance exactly to the beat!
Best Ronda www.tango-rio.com
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 2:30 PM
To: Razor Girl; tango-l@mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] leading and following
But let me ask another question: last week, another woman at the milonga
told me:"I like dancing with this man and that man... but when I dance with
a beginner, my feet hurt." I have noticed the same thing: with certain men,
my feet start to hurt while we dance. With others, this does not happen. Can
anyone explain the mechanism behind that? I am not aware of the men leaning
or bearing down on me. Could it be that these men make me pivot in an
unnatural, anatomically incompatible way, placing unnecessary extra weight
on the wrong places of my feet? Or hold my body in the wrong angle in
relation to my moves or my walk?
Astrid
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2006 12:39:38 -0400
From: mallpasso@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading and following
Trini: Why do you even bother to dance with these clowns?
El Bandido de Tango
-----Original Message-----
From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sat, 1 Jul 2006 21:26:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading and following
Hi Igor,
Perhaps I should elaborate.
With the man with whom I do not allow sacadas, I close my
step more quickly and move more quickly to the next step.
When he paradas and tries to sandwich, I continue to turn
around him so that he never gets the chance to even start
his sandwich. I am changing his intended step. I can
always read his intention very early on.
With the man who leads wildly around the room, I often take
much smaller steps than what he invites. I keep my eyes
open to navigate and can choose where to go if necessary.
And every once in a while with other guys, I'll ignore an
invitation in order to avoid a collision.
As for the pumping arm, it probably is more of a style than
a lead, as you pointed out.
It helps that I also dance the man's part, so it's not hard
for me to change things as necessary.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
> Trini,
>
> In your examples:
>
> "..There is one man in our community that
> I refuse to allow sacadas or anything involving the space
> between my feet because I do not trust his balance. With
> another, I refuse to let my right arm be treated as a
> pump.
> With another, I have refused to be lead wildly around
> the
> room..."
>
> You did not negotiate the Result of a Particular Lead.
> You negotiated the Style of Dancing. Which is a
> different thing.
> In general, it means you Did Not Let to Lead the
> particular things. See the
> difference?
>
> I am referring to not to "he led me all around the room
> in linear
> directions",
> but "he led me to the forward step, then to the cross,
> then to the forward
> ocho" - three leads at least.
> Then, if you wish, "he surprised me: instead of smoothly
> leading to the side
> step of molinete, he over rotated me to another forward
> ocho..". Woops..
>
> Igor.
>
>
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 01:48:09 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading and following
To: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>,
<tango-l@mit.edu>
> If I lead a step and the woman answers with something different from what
I
> lead I have to assume that something is wrong.
>
> Either she does not know how to dance or she is trying to "back lead"
(this
> is to lead the leader when she is the follower) or she is trying to
irritate
> me on purpose : all reasons for me not to ask her to dance with me again.
Well, there are leaders, and there are leaders. There is the one type of
leader who may be a great dancer, but his lead demands absolute "obedience",
meaning, following at all times, no space to insert little firuletes, no way
for the woman to slow down on a step and add some suspense. This may still
be a good and enjoyable dance, but he demands that the woman be part of
"his" dance at all times.
Then there is a second type of great leader, the one who really dances for
the woman, he leads, but in a way that makes the woman melt and let go in
his arms, so that she surrenders and will follow him gladly and blindly in
whatever he does, and the space between them has become blurry, and you
don't really feel anymore where one ends and the other one begins. (this is
who I think of as the genuine "macho" in the Argentine meaning)
And then there is a third type of good leader, who I call the "creative
leader" and he may be one of that "new man"-generation. The kind of leader
that is very sensitive to the woman, and notices all the little things she
would like to do. If she wants to insert an adorno, he gives her time and
space. If she wants to change the speed of a step before she closes her
feet, he will join in with that variation joyfully. And if she wants to
insert an extra step, or start an extra turn, or alter his lead in whatever
other way, he feels it and plays along with it, smoothly.
> Unless we are friends at a practica and then I would ask her "what is
wrong
> with you today?"
>
> I assume that I lead properly and that I allow time and space in the dance
> for the woman to express herself as she wishes. I am concious that I am
the
> leader and she is the follower, any deviation of those principles (IMO)
are
> in violation of the rules of the dance.
Naturally, the man is basically the leader, and the woman is basically the
follower, but if there is a slight variation in the energy of who does what
(see above with the "creative leader") and a man sees that as a reason not
to ask her to dance again, I would say, it is more an indication of a
shortcoming in the man's dance than the problem of the woman. Wasn't it
Gavito who said:"I indicate, she moves, and then I follow her"? A man who
cannot follow at all is not a fully developed dancer, in my opinion.
(just like a lover who cannot deal women on top...)
Humbly
Astrid
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 02:05:43 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] leading and following
To: "Ronda Patino" <rondap@mindspring.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
Very interesting explanation, thank you, Ronda !
Reminds me of the time when I adjusted a man's tempo, and the teacher came
over and said:"You have to follow him." "But he is dancing out of rhythm", I
complained to her. "Well, if he dances out of rhythm then you... dance out
of rhythm too", she said. I don't think so.
> Hi Astrid,
>
> I have noticed this too! My theory is that when a leader allows you to
step
> right with the music and on your point of balance there is great pleasure
> and no foot pain, but if the position or timing are off, you may be either
> sliding on your foot as he is trying to rush or delay you in or out of a
> step or pushing you off the balance point in which case your toes may grip
> to try to stabilize your landing or position. So, I think the pain comes
> from muscles contracting and ligaments being twisted as we try to maintain
> our grip so to speak and from the friction produced by errors in timing.
> For me some of the greatest pleasure from dancing is when I am free to
land
> exactly on my point of balance exactly to the beat!
>
> Best Ronda www.tango-rio.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tango-l-bounces@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf
Of
> astrid
> Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2006 2:30 PM
> To: Razor Girl; tango-l@mit.edu
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] leading and following
>
> But let me ask another question: last week, another woman at the milonga
> told me:"I like dancing with this man and that man... but when I dance
with
> a beginner, my feet hurt." I have noticed the same thing: with certain
men,
> my feet start to hurt while we dance. With others, this does not happen.
Can
> anyone explain the mechanism behind that? I am not aware of the men
leaning
> or bearing down on me. Could it be that these men make me pivot in an
> unnatural, anatomically incompatible way, placing unnecessary extra weight
> on the wrong places of my feet? Or hold my body in the wrong angle in
> relation to my moves or my walk?
>
> Astrid
>
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 10:49:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading and following
We all have flaws in our dancing. I don't have a problem
with people who are less experienced but are still working
on their tango and mind their manners. It is only those
condescending dancers for whom I have no tolerance.
Besides, it's gives me a great opportunity to work on my
grounding and sensitivity.
Trini
--- mallpasso@aol.com wrote:
>
> Trini: Why do you even bother to dance with these clowns?
>
> El Bandido de Tango
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2006 18:52:40 +0000
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Leading and following
To: tango-l@mit.edu
In traditional tango the man leads and the woman follows.
The man determines the speed and the length of every step. A good leader
will not allow the woman to speed or to slow the dance or the turn but he is
conscious that there are women that can dance fast (if needed) and there are
others that only dance slowly.
He "feels" the woman with respect to her taste and skill to dance and adapts
to her. If she dances slowly he will do so, he will never lead steps or
figures that she cannot follow with ease, or set a speed for the dance that
would make her feel ackward.
He will sense the music, and the energy of the room and lead accordingly
avoiding to disturb the other dancers and at the same time protecting his
partner from any collisions or injuries.
He will do his best to communicate with her knowing that she is in a
"floating receptive mood" to his suggestions. doing her best to follow his
suggestions. He tries to create an interesting conversation of the bodies
and the legs.
He is tuned and sensitive to her needs.
He allows enough time for her to dance peacefully and express her dance
artistically.
But he is in charge, he leads most moves, even ornaments by allowing time
for them.
There are many embellishments where the woman has freedom to select the type
she wishes to do.
Different types of Amagues (front boleos) for instance, or the type of
embellishment at a stop or during a calesita, etc.
If he sweeps and wishes her to sweep his foot back he leads that as well.
When he leads a molinete does not allow the woman to run at any speed she
feels like.
He places her feet at the desired length and regulates the speed of the
turn.
The "creative woman" as defined by Astrid has a lot of chances to express
her creations artistically according to her feelings, in the way she does
her embellishments and adding moves or steps as she wishes as long as she
does not interfere with the leader's foot work and the general mood of the
dance. He continues dancing when she is done and never rushing her through
her moves.
The same way as the leader does lots of moves between the woman's legs never
interfering with her foot work.
The result should be a perfect tango created by both of them, in perfect
harmony and connection with each other. Each one in his proper role: one
leading and the other one following.
Again I am talking about people that know how to dance not about poor
dancers.
Astrid described three excellent examples of leaders. The first one (IMO) is
deficient due to lack of sensitivity to the woman's need and do not
correspond with an Argentine macho.
The man dances to make sure that the woman is the center of the dance, the
star of the show.
His pleasure derives from knowing that she is happy in his arms and
surrenders without hesitation to his embrace.
Best tangos to everyone, Sergio
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 12:02:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading and following
Hi Astrid,
Sean here. Very nicely put. In your descriptions, I think
the man's style must very much match his personality. I
think corresponding ideas could be expressed about women's
styles.
So a woman who by her nature dances in the first style,
with absolute "obedience" may be very wonderful to dance
with. But when this "obedience" is taught as the "correct"
way to dance to a woman with a different personality, then
something wonderful is lost. If she accepts this rule, then
she must surpress her personality, and dancing with her is
no fun at all.
Men are taught very early to discover and dance their own
style. Women then get to experience something different
with every man. But women are often taught to supress their
own style and conform to the man. So the men do not get to
experience the same variety.
Sean
--- astrid <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp> wrote:
>
> > If I lead a step and the woman answers with something
> different from what
> I
> > lead I have to assume that something is wrong.
> >
> > Either she does not know how to dance or she is trying
> to "back lead"
> (this
> > is to lead the leader when she is the follower) or she
> is trying to
> irritate
> > me on purpose : all reasons for me not to ask her to
> dance with me again.
>
> Well, there are leaders, and there are leaders. There is
> the one type of
> leader who may be a great dancer, but his lead demands
> absolute "obedience",
> meaning, following at all times, no space to insert
> little firuletes, no way
> for the woman to slow down on a step and add some
> suspense. This may still
> be a good and enjoyable dance, but he demands that the
> woman be part of
> "his" dance at all times.
>
> Then there is a second type of great leader, the one who
> really dances for
> the woman, he leads, but in a way that makes the woman
> melt and let go in
> his arms, so that she surrenders and will follow him
> gladly and blindly in
> whatever he does, and the space between them has become
> blurry, and you
> don't really feel anymore where one ends and the other
> one begins. (this is
> who I think of as the genuine "macho" in the Argentine
> meaning)
>
> And then there is a third type of good leader, who I call
> the "creative
> leader" and he may be one of that "new man"-generation.
> The kind of leader
> that is very sensitive to the woman, and notices all the
> little things she
> would like to do. If she wants to insert an adorno, he
> gives her time and
> space. If she wants to change the speed of a step before
> she closes her
> feet, he will join in with that variation joyfully. And
> if she wants to
> insert an extra step, or start an extra turn, or alter
> his lead in whatever
> other way, he feels it and plays along with it, smoothly.
>
> > Unless we are friends at a practica and then I would
> ask her "what is
> wrong
> > with you today?"
> >
> > I assume that I lead properly and that I allow time and
> space in the dance
> > for the woman to express herself as she wishes. I am
> concious that I am
> the
> > leader and she is the follower, any deviation of those
> principles (IMO)
> are
> > in violation of the rules of the dance.
>
> Naturally, the man is basically the leader, and the woman
> is basically the
> follower, but if there is a slight variation in the
> energy of who does what
> (see above with the "creative leader") and a man sees
> that as a reason not
> to ask her to dance again, I would say, it is more an
> indication of a
> shortcoming in the man's dance than the problem of the
> woman. Wasn't it
> Gavito who said:"I indicate, she moves, and then I follow
> her"? A man who
> cannot follow at all is not a fully developed dancer, in
> my opinion.
> (just like a lover who cannot deal women on top...)
>
> Humbly
> Astrid
>
>
>
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 12:37:46 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading and following
>"Men are taught very early to discover and dance their own style."
Why only one style?
As many styles as there are women and music around.
Igor.
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 00:19 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading and following
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
>> I am sure every guy on this list has had an invitation
>> changed by a "normal" dancer. The guy thinks he invited a
>> forward step and she answers it as a back step. That
>> dynamic is the most common form of "refusing" an invitation
>
> I have never heard of such a thing happening and this has never happened
> to me either.
For what it's worth, same here. It's not so much a refusal of a step, but a
refusal of the dance.
> Using vocabulary such as "invite" or "request" reinforces
> the notion that tango is a dialogue
That notion is responsible for a great deal of misunderstanding amongst
beginners. Both before and after they become teachers.
The connection is not a dialog.
In dialog, the two take turns sending signals to the other. At any moment,
one is speaking and the other is listening. There's communication, but no
coupling.
In the connection, this ping=pong of signals does not exist. At all times
both are speaking and both are listening - simultaneously and continuously.
This is what creates the coupling, such that the two feel and move as one.
This connection affords the possibility of what some call a dialog. But
absolutely not in a way that permits this example of a forward step being
answered as a back step. That cannot happen within the connection because
by its very nature it breaks the connection.
And if it cannot happen within the connection, then it cannot happen
within the dance. This leads me to the same belief as Sergio, albeit by a
different route: such a "refusal of the lead" can arise only in those
who've not yet learnt to dance.
Chris
Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2006 21:31:14 -0400
From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Leading and following
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Refusing to follow: I think the only time I would ever refuse to follow is
when the leader is not paying attention to which of my legs is bearing the
weight. for example. trying to lead me into a front ocho when the weight is
on the wrong leg. if that happened, I just stay still and wait for him to
pivot me the other way.
Caroline
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Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 21:23:09 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading and following
On Jul 2, 2006, at 5:19 PM, Chris, UK wrote:
>>> I am sure every guy on this list has had an invitation
>>> changed by a "normal" dancer. The guy thinks he invited a
>>> forward step and she answers it as a back step. That
>>> dynamic is the most common form of "refusing" an invitation
>>
>> I have never heard of such a thing happening and this has never
>> happened
>> to me either.
>
> For what it's worth, same here. It's not so much a refusal of a
> step, but a
> refusal of the dance.
>
>> Using vocabulary such as "invite" or "request" reinforces
>> the notion that tango is a dialogue
>
> That notion is responsible for a great deal of misunderstanding
> amongst
> beginners. Both before and after they become teachers.
Really? You're kidding!
You really have got to get out more... try different followers or
other cities?
OBVIOUSLY:
EVERY TIME a woman dances with a leader she enables or disables his
dance (i.e. THEIR dance), by her skill, technique, axis-control,
musicality, personality, energy, or lack of any of these things. All
followers constantly makes decisions and choices that modify the
dance of the leader.
Good technique by the follower gives the leader a much easier job;
bad technique, and the leader has to think and work harder.
Musicality & energy makes the leader come alive; density and
spaciousness slow him down. If her technique is good, and she follows
well, then he can go intuitive and channel the music into Dance with
the conscious brain barely involved.
If she doesn't have the ability to execute turns, then the leader
might not lead turns.
If she has good balance and energizes her turns, maybe he leads a
turn faster or sharper.
MORE SUBTLY:
A lot of the follower's contribution can fly below the leader's radar
or awareness. The leader is focused externally and projecting ideas
to the follower: he is worrying about navigational problems,
receiving the music, and making decisions about what to do next. The
follower's attention is supremely focused on the inner-space of the
dance, which puts her in a very powerful role.
I'm not sure the leaders realize how transparent they are to the
follower. Because she has x-ray vision into his heart, she can read
every hesitation, all his tells, his gathering energy for a move, his
bobbles, the quality of his embrace, etc...
A good follower has the ability change his mind without him even
realizing it.
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2006 21:29:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading and following
Sean here.
Thank you for taking the time to write this Tom. It is
brilliant! You expressed the idea that I didn't have the
words for when I wrote that merely following was not
sufficient for the woman to be dancing. I particularly like
your "More Subtly" part.
For my part, I am not much interested in dancing with women
who backlead, interlead or refuse the lead. When that
happens, I try to salvage the dance by changing the embrace
and dancing the woman's role. Not that I follow very well,
but hey, someone has to do it.
IMHO, the women who dance as Tom describes are much better
at expressing their personality in the dance than those who
use the man's tools. Cooperation produces much better
results than competition.
Sean
--- Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org> wrote:
OBVIOUSLY:
EVERY TIME a woman dances with a leader she enables or
disables his dance (i.e. THEIR dance), by her skill,
technique, axis-control, musicality, personality, energy,
or lack of any of these things. All followers constantly
makes decisions and choices that modify the dance of the
leader.
Good technique by the follower gives the leader a much
easier job; bad technique, and the leader has to think and
work harder. Musicality & energy makes the leader come
alive; density and spaciousness slow him down. If her
technique is good, and she follows well, then he can go
intuitive and channel the music into Dance with the
conscious brain barely involved.
If she doesn't have the ability to execute turns, then the
leader might not lead turns.
If she has good balance and energizes her turns, maybe he
leads a turn faster or sharper.
MORE SUBTLY:
A lot of the follower's contribution can fly below the
leader's radar or awareness. The leader is focused
externally and projecting ideas to the follower: he is
worrying about navigational problems, receiving the music,
and making decisions about what to do next. The follower's
attention is supremely focused on the inner-space of the
dance, which puts her in a very powerful role.
I'm not sure the leaders realize how transparent they are
to the follower. Because she has x-ray vision into his
heart, she can read every hesitation, all his tells, his
gathering energy for a move, his bobbles, the quality of
his embrace, etc...
A good follower has the ability change his mind without him
even realizing it.
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 12:31:48 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading and following
To: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Sergio Vandekier wrote:
> I am really interested in knowing the meaning of all this because to
> tell you the truth I never so a woman to refuse to follow a lead so far.
> I wonder if the vocabulary utilized (suggest, invite, instead of lead)
> is out of courtesy so that the follower feel better or if it really it
> has some other meaning.
It does. "Suggest" suggests [sic] that the leader is actually
*listening* the the follower's response, and aware of where she
stands and how she moves, and then tries to move in harmony,
leading throughout the dance (and throughout each step).
Yes, leaders do exist that simply "lead" and see it as the follower's
job to end up *precisely* where they intend her to end up, with the
timing they want. They also tend to lead only the beginning of any
steps (after which "by now she should have gotten it"), making that
well nigh impossible to achieve for a good follower.
--
Alexis Cousein al@sgi.com
Solutions Architect/Senior Systems Engineer SGI
--
Bad grammar makes me [sic].
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 12:41:41 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading and following
Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
> that she was more important than the step.
You hit the mail on the head. It is, of course, also
an issue of attitude, as some leaders don't seem to
dance to make their followers enjoy the dance, but merely
to show off.
Some of that attitude is nurtured by a given teaching style,
of course, but then, it's also impossible to teach an insufferably
arrogant and egotistic man how to care for anyone else in the
dance when he's unable to do so in real life ;).
--
Alexis Cousein al@sgi.com
Solutions Architect/Senior Systems Engineer SGI
--
Bad grammar makes me [sic].
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 12:44:20 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading and following
To: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Sergio Vandekier wrote:
>
> These are examples of people that do not know how to dance properly.
>
> Then you are situated in a higher level than they are, not only because
> you are a better dancer but because you are their teacher. As they are
> learning they assume that your refusal or negotiation is due to
> something wrong that they do.
>
Were that only true. It took me *quite* some years to learn that the
secret in becoming a better leader is to *always* question yourself
*first* when something goes wrong.
I wouldn't say that particular attitude is inevitable...
--
Alexis Cousein al@sgi.com
Solutions Architect/Senior Systems Engineer SGI
--
Bad grammar makes me [sic].
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2006 13:05:33 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading and following
To: astrid <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Cc: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>, tango-l@mit.edu
Sergio wrote:
> If I lead a step and the woman answers with something different
> from what I lead I have to assume that something is wrong.
>
We're in agreement here, though "wrong" is unnecessarily
judgemental ;).
> Either she does not know how to dance or she is trying to "back
> lead" (this is to lead the leader when she is the follower)
> or she is trying to irritate me on purpose : all reasons
> for me not to ask her to dance with me again.
Two points:
1.
you're forgetting one possiblity: that you may not lead well.
Even though in you case you may feel the probability is zero,
it's not *impossible*, you know.
2.
I don't necessarily *mind* women who back-lead *when they're given
the opportunity*. I do mind when they do so without having the
opportunity, and I can't tolerate sloppy backleading (or inexistent
backleading while the follower acts as if she had been backleading).
Perhaps *you* aren't giving followers *any* opportunity to backlead,
but the world is full of wusses ;) that do, and quite on purpose.
Certainly, I know a few followers (who have been known to backlead me
at the end of phrases) to whom I'd never refuse a dance.
--
Alexis Cousein al@sgi.com
Solutions Architect/Senior Systems Engineer SGI
--
Bad grammar makes me [sic].
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 12:11 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading and following
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Tom wrote:
> Really? You're kidding!
>
> You really have got to get out more... try different followers or
> other cities?
Well, if there really are cites where this is the norm:
>>> I am sure every guy on this list has had an invitation
>>> changed by a "normal" dancer. The guy thinks he invited a
>>> forward step and she answers it as a back step.
(in addition to Pittsburgh USA) then thanks but no thanks.
I've only ever found that kind of stuff in the pupils of beginner teachers
who've misunderstood the notion of dialog to mean: guy says which step to
do and girl answers with the nearest match she finds in her programmed
vocabulary of class steps, or if she's really creative (i.e. not), a
different step entirely. These are the "ochos in lesson #2" class teachers
who teach 'what to dance' (e.g. step patterns) before or even instead of
instead of 'how to dance' (e.g. connection) and often really have no idea
of the difference between the pattern-dance imitation tango that results,
and real tango.
> OBVIOUSLY:
> EVERY TIME a woman dances with a leader she enables or disables his
> dance (i.e. THEIR dance), by her skill, technique, axis-control,
> musicality, personality, energy, or lack of any of these things. [etc.]
Sure, but (OBVIOUSLY) that happens through simultaneous and continuous
connection, not dialog.
> If she doesn't have the ability to execute turns, then the leader
> might not lead turns.
The good leader /will/ not lead turns - no 'might' about it.
Chris
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 09:35:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading and following
Chris,
Then, we are actually in agreement. For me, a dialogue,
the conversation can occur with such speed that it can be
seamless or continuous. But the ?ping-ponging? is still
there, otherwise, one is not responding to the other.
Reflexes can be instantaneous, but there still must be
stimuli first.
It is much like the concept of being on axis. Some
teachers will tell beginners that they must come to their
axis before they take the next step. They end up doing
this "stop-n-go" tango. Eventually, they learn that they
really need to just pass through their axis, which can only
take a split-second. Split-seconds is all it takes to have
a dialogue in tango.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
> Alexis wrote
>
> > "dialogue" is easily misinterpreted as a sequence of
> unilateral
> > (and discrete) communication events.
>
> To clarify, I didn't suggest misinterpretation of the
> word.
>
> What I'm suggesting is misinterpretation is of the
> /dance/. Many teachers
> really do have the "notion that tango is a dialog" in the
> sense of being
> discrete, step-wise. Like a simple step-by-step pattern
> dance. So for them
> the idea that also the lead/follow is a step-wise dialog
> fits right in.
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 12:21:13 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading and following
Yes, women can also be transparent to the leader, but the leaders
attention has a lot more external information and noise.
Really good dancers have extraordinary skills at proprioception and
kinesthetics.
More than that, their senses and awareness extends into the other
person's body, as if both nervous systems were joined together. They
feel energy and how it flows in another person's body.
On Jul 3, 2006, at 7:38 AM, astrid wrote:
> I'm not sure the leaders realize how transparent they are to the
> follower. Because she has x-ray vision into his heart, she can read
> every hesitation, all his tells, his gathering energy for a move, his
> bobbles, the quality of his embrace, etc...
> ...
> So, Tom, are women not as transparent to the men embracing them in
> tango?
>
>> A good follower has the ability change his mind without him even
>> realizing it.
>>
> If only real life was as easy as that.
>
> Astrid,
> a better and more willing follower when on the dance floor...
>
>
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 11:28:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading and following
--- Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com> wrote:
If the leader doesn't leave room for backleads, then they
can't be led, and it is just as inexcusable for a lady to
try to bend the will of a leader with an iron fist as it is
for a leader to ignore the follower.
On the other hand, some leaders *will* leave some room for
followers to back lead, and I don't see followers who step
in to surprise leaders at the right moment as competing
with them.
---
Hi Alexis,
Sean here. You have been very productive this morning. You
have given us lots to think about.
In the above case, I think that we may not use the term
"back leading" to mean the same thing. In my case, I would
not consider it back leading if I were to indicate a
movement, and the woman response felt like "Hmmm, that
might be interesting, but what will you do if I go here
instead?" and leaves me a choice in the matter. Of course,
none of this is spoken, and it happens above the level of
consciousness. To me, this is just dancing together.
Back leading on the other hand feels like the woman
shouting "NO! WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU THINKING? I AM GOING
HERE, AND YOU WILL COMPLY!" This of course interrupts the
dance and forces the man back into conscious awareness.
Sean
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 22:30 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading and following
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Sean wrote:
> Back leading on the other hand feels like the woman
> shouting "NO! WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU THINKING? I AM GOING
> HERE, AND YOU WILL COMPLY!"
That's simply bad back leading. Just as that same shout in the opposite
direction is bad (forward) leading.
Good back leading feels as gorgeous as good leading.
Chris
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Leading and following
*From:* "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
*Date:* Mon, 3 Jul 2006 11:28:28 -0700 (PDT)
--- Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com> wrote:
If the leader doesn't leave room for backleads, then they
can't be led, and it is just as inexcusable for a lady to
try to bend the will of a leader with an iron fist as it is
for a leader to ignore the follower.
On the other hand, some leaders *will* leave some room for
followers to back lead, and I don't see followers who step
in to surprise leaders at the right moment as competing
with them.
---
Hi Alexis,
Sean here. You have been very productive this morning. You
have given us lots to think about.
In the above case, I think that we may not use the term
"back leading" to mean the same thing. In my case, I would
not consider it back leading if I were to indicate a
movement, and the woman response felt like "Hmmm, that
might be interesting, but what will you do if I go here
instead?" and leaves me a choice in the matter. Of course,
none of this is spoken, and it happens above the level of
consciousness. To me, this is just dancing together.
Back leading on the other hand feels like the woman
shouting "NO! WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU THINKING? I AM GOING
HERE, AND YOU WILL COMPLY!" This of course interrupts the
dance and forces the man back into conscious awareness.
Sean
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 15:13:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading and following
--- "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
That's simply bad back leading. Just as that same shout in
the opposite direction is bad (forward) leading.
Good back leading feels as gorgeous as good leading.
Chris
---
That's probably true. So I have to teach the shouters how
to lead with a bit of subtlty? Or maybe it would be enough
to teach them that their partner is more important than the
step that they want to [back]lead? Of course, as Alexis
pointed out this morning, some [wo]men are just too
insufferably arrogant to care.
Sean
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 07:21:56 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading and following
To: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>,
It is much like the concept of being on axis. Some
teachers will tell beginners that they must come to their
axis before they take the next step. They end up doing
this "stop-n-go" tango. Eventually, they learn that they
really need to just pass through their axis, which can only
take a split-second. Split-seconds is all it takes to have
a dialogue in tango.
This sounds bizarre. Like, while they step, they would be off their axis.
How can you "pass through your axis"??
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 01:18:32 +0200
From: Andy <andy.ungureanu@t-online.de>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading and following
astrid schrieb:
> This sounds bizarre. Like, while they step, they would be off their axis.
> How can you "pass through your axis"??
>
It means for a split of a second the center of gravity of the body must
be on a vertical line over the foot. This is the point where the leader
can change the direction without force. One can argue it is always like
that when you walk, but try to walk in slow motion. Most beginners begin
to wobble and stumble. In a normal speed walk there is a inertia force
which keeps you in balance, even when you are not over the foot.
Another effect of not passing that point is "falling" on the next step.
The ideal "cat walk" is to keep balance an one foot, place the other
without shifting weight and shift first when the foot is in place. In
this case there is not one moment when you are out of balance. The
movement is completely reversible at any point and any speed, especially
important to avoid collisions when someone is suddenly crossing the way.
Ideal cat walker: Miguel Zotto.
Andy
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 17:43:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading and following
--- astrid <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp> wrote:
You seem to have missed what Tom said on that. And the
"insufferably arrogant" one when it comes to being a
partner in dance, seems to be, sorry to say, you, at times.
You sound more and more macho, (the way you talk about
women sometimes), in the non-Argentine sense of the word.
-----------
Maybe it's just burn out. For more than 10 years, I was the
guy who tried to dance with everybody. I would watch for
the women who were spending a lot of time sitting out, and
make sure that at least I danced with them. I would do
whatever was necessary to make sure that whomever I danced
with enjoyed their dance, no matter how painful or
uncomfortable is was for me.
Over the past 18 months or so, I have met and danced with a
number of women who don't need to be taken care of. They
are equal partners in making the dance. If I do something
special for them, they know it, and answer with something
special for me.
The women who want to dance *with* me have spoiled me for
those who want to be taken care of, entertained or shown
off *by* me.
I have tried to introduce the idea that the women can share
the responsibility for creating the dance into our
community, but I have been misunderstood, rebuffed, or
coutermanded at every turn. I expected resistance from
certain control freak type leaders, but for the most part,
the resistance is coming from the women. They want to be
taken care of, entertained and shown off. Why would it
matter to them what the guy might want?
So yeah, I'm a little pissed off about it.
Sean
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2006 17:41:47 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading and following
Exactly, Andy, you said it very well. Your message is very useful to me - I
have figured out what is going on when beginners "wobble", but
still the term "pass through your axis" is misleading and imprecise for me.
I can see that it is an equivalent "pass your center of gravity over the
ball of the foot with total control, management of the speed at that
moment". It is important, but it does not always happen in tango. There many
moments when it is not like that. And these moments feel very good.
What you mean with the excellent description of the Cat Walk, is the ability
to control, manage your movements at any point and moment, including the one
when the center of gravity is above a ball of the foot. But it is true only
for slow motions, or where Corte is not used, or when Apilado is not used.
In Apilado Lady's axis is never vertical: she can not pass over her foot,
she just not supposed to do it. In a sense, she is always on her tilted axis
at any millisecond ).
"Movement is reversible at any time". Good ! Excellent ! But what about
movements which are sharp and fast? And they are not reversible? Are they
wrong ?
2. "This is the point where the leader can change the direction without
force".
Why you are so afraid of this word "Force"?
You should see the dance of Miriam Larici and Hugo Patyn yesterday at Nora's
Tango Week in San Francisco! So much Force! Ahhhhhh-mazing ! Great !!
Come to think about it, even in the position of absolute balance ( very
shaky one), when she is a ballerina standing one a tiptoe, one has to apply
some not really small force to start rotating her. Exactly because her body
has inertia !
It is not a "Force" which is scary, but application of force in the wrong
moment, wrong direction, excessive, too small, unpredictable, unclear, or
just plain wrong.
* * *
Words and names are very important. One of the consequences of the wrong
naming, believe it or not, is the restriction of creativity. Every word puts
a boundary between named and not named. At the same time this word, a new
name makes other associations in our mind. Through this it is possible to
assign other, sometimes misleading qualities to the named subject. And it
can reject qualities which exists or could exist in the named subject which
puts a lock on creative transformation of it.
Shortly. Names are important, if you want them to be clear.
I write the answer since you mentioned me, thanks!
A One - Igor.
--------------------
astrid schrieb:
> This sounds bizarre. Like, while they step, they would be off their axis.
> How can you "pass through your axis"??
>
It means for a split of a second the center of gravity of the body must
be on a vertical line over the foot. This is the point where the leader
can change the direction without force. One can argue it is always like
that when you walk, but try to walk in slow motion. Most beginners begin
to wobble and stumble. In a normal speed walk there is a inertia force
which keeps you in balance, even when you are not over the foot.
Another effect of not passing that point is "falling" on the next step.
The ideal "cat walk" is to keep balance an one foot, place the other
without shifting weight and shift first when the foot is in place. In
this case there is not one moment when you are out of balance. The
movement is completely reversible at any point and any speed, especially
important to avoid collisions when someone is suddenly crossing the way.
Ideal cat walker: Miguel Zotto.
Andy
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 11:19:29 +1000
From: "Tango Terrorist" <tangoterror@gmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Leading and Following
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<bb0bd54e0607031819p2d2e7b12pdc51001ea8ec3c16@mail.gmail.com>
>1. Re: Refusing the lead (Alexis Cousein)
>2. Re: Leading and following (Alexis Cousein)
>3. Re: Leading and following (Alexis Cousein)
>4. Re: Leading and following (astrid)
>5. Re: Corte, what is it? %) (steve pastor)
>6. Re: Leading and following (Chris, UK)
>7. Re: Leading and following (Chris, UK)
>8. Re: Leading and following (Alexis Cousein)
It might be a convenient expression , but it leads to entirely the wrong
understanding. Leading is what you do to a horse. Not "leading" is
precisely what differentiates Tango.
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 13:34:33 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading and Following
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Tango Terrorist wrote:
> It might be a convenient expression , but it leads to entirely the wrong
> understanding. Leading is what you do to a horse.
The Collins COBUILD dictionary ascribes 11 meanings to the verb
lead, most of which have none of the connotations you bestow on
the word.
2. and 8. are directive, but there's also:
12. If something leads you to do something, if influences or
affects you in such a way that you do it.
14. If you lead a conversation or discussion, you control the
way it develops so that you can introduce a particular subject.
In other words, if you associate leading only with horses,
there's something about the finer nuances about the ambiguity
(and poetry) of language that escapes you.
--
Alexis Cousein al@sgi.com
Solutions Architect/Senior Systems Engineer SGI
--
Bad grammar makes me [sic].
