4336 Tango reflects society - introduction
Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 17:59:04 +0000
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango reflects society - introduction
To: tango-l@mit.edu, leanorekr@yahoo.com
What follows is how I see the origin of tango roles. A representation of
Argentine society.
Notice that I say "how I see" it. There are many Argentine Milongueros (or
anyone else) that read these notes and I welcome them to give their opinion
if they do not agree with my views on this subject. (If you write in Spanish
I will translate).
This does not mean that you have to dance in any different way than that
that you prefer.
This does not pass judgment on any society whatsoever, it merely describes
something as I see it.
Argentine women, like many women all over the world, are happy they are
women.
Argentine men are happy they are men.
Women in Argentina have their own feminine world and men have their own
masculine world at the same time they have an intense relatinship with each
other.
There is some mysterious thing about those worlds: men think that women have
their own mysterious world and women think the same way as to the man's
world.
They show intense respect for each other's worlds.
In a party, generally speaking, women and men mingle and talk freely but if
there are three or more women discussing something, men stay away and women
do the same when a group of men are talking among themselves.
Those worlds intersect at times, men and women come together as masculine
and feminine, they know that they are different, they do not compete, they
do not compare, they help each other to fulfill their roles in life. They
walk hand in hand in admiration of each other's differences, accepting and
celebrating them.
When it comes to tango those facts are represented in the dance, there is a
feminine role and a masculine role. They both men and women are highly
respectful of such roles.
As an alternative women can perform the masculine role and men can do the
feminine one, or each one can do both roles. As I explained before this is
not about machismo or homophobia at all. it is a mere explanation of the
origin of the roles in tango.
There is a masculine and a feminine world at the milongas as well...but I
will discuss that later.
Regards, Sergio
Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 14:15:36 -0400
From: Ilene Marder <imhmedia@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango reflects society - introduction
To: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Cc: leanorekr@yahoo.com, tango-l@mit.edu
Sergio, well said...but this is true all over the world......
Sergio Vandekier wrote:
>What follows is how I see the origin of tango roles. A representation of
>Argentine society.
>
>Notice that I say "how I see" it. There are many Argentine Milongueros (or
>anyone else) that read these notes and I welcome them to give their opinion
>if they do not agree with my views on this subject. (If you write in Spanish
>I will translate).
>
>This does not mean that you have to dance in any different way than that
>that you prefer.
>This does not pass judgment on any society whatsoever, it merely describes
>something as I see it.
>
>Argentine women, like many women all over the world, are happy they are
>women.
>
>Argentine men are happy they are men.
>
>Women in Argentina have their own feminine world and men have their own
>masculine world at the same time they have an intense relatinship with each
>other.
>
>There is some mysterious thing about those worlds: men think that women have
>their own mysterious world and women think the same way as to the man's
>world.
>
>They show intense respect for each other's worlds.
>
>In a party, generally speaking, women and men mingle and talk freely but if
>there are three or more women discussing something, men stay away and women
>do the same when a group of men are talking among themselves.
>
>Those worlds intersect at times, men and women come together as masculine
>and feminine, they know that they are different, they do not compete, they
>do not compare, they help each other to fulfill their roles in life. They
>walk hand in hand in admiration of each other's differences, accepting and
>celebrating them.
>
>When it comes to tango those facts are represented in the dance, there is a
>feminine role and a masculine role. They both men and women are highly
>respectful of such roles.
>
>As an alternative women can perform the masculine role and men can do the
>feminine one, or each one can do both roles. As I explained before this is
>not about machismo or homophobia at all. it is a mere explanation of the
>origin of the roles in tango.
>
>There is a masculine and a feminine world at the milongas as well...but I
>will discuss that later.
>
>Regards, Sergio
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 15:13:14 -0400
From: "Jak Karako BailaTango.com" <jak@bailatango.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango reflects society - introduction
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Dear Sergio
While I think the point you are trying to make is different, I am not in agreement with your proposition referring to men and women:
"They show intense respect for each other's worlds."... "They
walk hand in hand in admiration of each other's differences, accepting and celebrating them." Generalizations of this kind is just not the reality.
While this is a desired situation, respect, admiration, acceptance and celebration of differences are just not the norm. They are not common attributes of the tango scene (Argentina or elsewhere)
My observation suggests otherwise. The disrespect for the other gender, looking down, rejection, intolerance are all over the place.
However I agree with the subject of your e-mail, tango does reflect society, with its good and bed elements.
Let us not be araid of passing judgements, if such judgements are based on objective observations and facts.
The appropriate premise is "Judge and be ready to be judged".
Only the disrespectful and the intolerant has something to gain from refraining from judgement.
Jak
www.BailaTango.com/ny/
>What follows is how I see the origin of tango roles. A representation of
>Argentine society.
>
>Notice that I say "how I see" it. There are many Argentine Milongueros (or
>anyone else) that read these notes and I welcome them to give their opinion
>if they do not agree with my views on this subject. (If you write in Spanish
>I will translate).
>
>This does not mean that you have to dance in any different way than that
>that you prefer.
>This does not pass judgment on any society whatsoever, it merely describes
>something as I see it.
>
>Argentine women, like many women all over the world, are happy they are
>women.
>
>Argentine men are happy they are men.
>
>Women in Argentina have their own feminine world and men have their own
>masculine world at the same time they have an intense relatinship with each
>other.
>
>There is some mysterious thing about those worlds: men think that women have
>their own mysterious world and women think the same way as to the man's
>world.
>
>They show intense respect for each other's worlds.
>
>In a party, generally speaking, women and men mingle and talk freely but if
>there are three or more women discussing something, men stay away and women
>do the same when a group of men are talking among themselves.
>
>Those worlds intersect at times, men and women come together as masculine
>and feminine, they know that they are different, they do not compete, they
>do not compare, they help each other to fulfill their roles in life. They
>walk hand in hand in admiration of each other's differences, accepting and
>celebrating them.
>
>When it comes to tango those facts are represented in the dance, there is a
>feminine role and a masculine role. They both men and women are highly
>respectful of such roles.
>
>As an alternative women can perform the masculine role and men can do the
>feminine one, or each one can do both roles. As I explained before this is
>not about machismo or homophobia at all. it is a mere explanation of the
>origin of the roles in tango.
>
>There is a masculine and a feminine world at the milongas as well...but I
>will discuss that later.
>
>Regards, Sergio
>
>
--
Jak
917 575 1798
www.BailaTango.com/ny/
Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 15:37:13 -0400
From: "TangoDC.com" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango reflects society - introduction
To: tango-L@mit.edu
Well, let's take a moment to delve deeper than platitudes, and connect
these tautologies (i.e., men are male, women female) to something
approaching observations about the dance:
* The vocabulary of follower's moves was specifically developed to show
off a woman's legs
Really nice ochos give high heels a whole new raison d'etre, oui? We do
planeos and such, the way we do them, because part of the point is that
the woman's leg peeks out from under her skirt. This we call SEXY. Well
then, let us continue...
* The leader's role was specifically developed to show off a woman's legs
Men's trousers do not have slits. Not traditionally, anyway. When I put
aside my inventiveness and reduce myself to a tango caricature, there
are only two things that matter, besides the music:
1. The illusion that I'm a suave-ass cat who can show off her legs
2. Her legs
* When two women dance together, there is still a pair of female legs to
show off
I suspect this is why a woman leading doesn't seem as bizarre as a man
following, or at least points to why it happens more often. Simply:
There's still a sexy chick. I notice, however, that women do not lead
with anything close to the thrust-and-parry machismo that men typically
use. Women adapt the leader's role into something more feminine-- and
perhaps this accounts for the fancier footwork I've heard praised
universally by their female partners, both here on the list and in person.
Women, that is to say, have stolen our precious tango lead and changed
it into something new. Someone call the aesthetic police! Male vanity is
under attack!!
While we're filling out the burglary report, however, we might as well
report our own ingenuity missing. We have adapted, in comparison, Zilch
of the follower's part to suit ourselves. When two men dance together,
with very few exceptions, the one following merely plays at femininity:
you might see the old shoe-shine adornment done comically, or watch a
hiney shake. You might see faces meet in a tango stare, for a moment,
before they shatter into laughter. But whatever you see, you'll probably
see mockery.
I applaud this in sheer high spirits, on the one hand, and at such
moments I'm content with the tango being what it most often is.
* The tango is most often a shallow thrill
On the other hand, I'm kind of alarmed at our lack of resources: we
haven't figured out how to make following really express Masculinity. In
finding our inner muchacha, we lose our outer guapo. Drag and a pair of
fishnets might help some of us out, whereas a painted mustache and a
fedora would Not do anything for a leading woman.
I'm not ready to conclude, beyond all shadow of a doubt, that men have
not figured out how to follow in a manly way. I've seen performances
where nothing struck me as odd, and I've seen a few social dances that
I'd put in the same category. But on reflection, there is clearly a gap
between what we've done with the follower's part and what women have
done with the leader's.
If someone out there disputes this, I'd love to have any links you can
provide. I'm very curious to see what others have come up with, because
I'd love to be wrong about the following point, which so far is the
conclusion to which reason has led me:
* The tango requires at least one pair of women's legs
Jake Spatz
Washington, DC
Sergio Vandekier wrote:
> What follows is how I see the origin of tango roles. A representation of
> Argentine society.
>
> Notice that I say "how I see" it. There are many Argentine Milongueros (or
> anyone else) that read these notes and I welcome them to give their opinion
> if they do not agree with my views on this subject. (If you write in Spanish
> I will translate).
>
> This does not mean that you have to dance in any different way than that
> that you prefer.
> This does not pass judgment on any society whatsoever, it merely describes
> something as I see it.
>
> Argentine women, like many women all over the world, are happy they are
> women.
>
> Argentine men are happy they are men.
>
> Women in Argentina have their own feminine world and men have their own
> masculine world at the same time they have an intense relatinship with each
> other.
>
> There is some mysterious thing about those worlds: men think that women have
> their own mysterious world and women think the same way as to the man's
> world.
>
> They show intense respect for each other's worlds.
>
> In a party, generally speaking, women and men mingle and talk freely but if
> there are three or more women discussing something, men stay away and women
> do the same when a group of men are talking among themselves.
>
> Those worlds intersect at times, men and women come together as masculine
> and feminine, they know that they are different, they do not compete, they
> do not compare, they help each other to fulfill their roles in life. They
> walk hand in hand in admiration of each other's differences, accepting and
> celebrating them.
>
> When it comes to tango those facts are represented in the dance, there is a
> feminine role and a masculine role. They both men and women are highly
> respectful of such roles.
>
> As an alternative women can perform the masculine role and men can do the
> feminine one, or each one can do both roles. As I explained before this is
> not about machismo or homophobia at all. it is a mere explanation of the
> origin of the roles in tango.
>
> There is a masculine and a feminine world at the milongas as well...but I
> will discuss that later.
>
> Regards, Sergio
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 13:49:50 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango reflects society - introduction
To: <tango-L@mit.edu>
Cc: spatz@tangodc.com
Thank you, Jake, I like your post so much!!
".. When two women dance together, there is still a pair of female legs to
show off.." - two pairs!
But I want to make an addition. I can not provide you with any links besides
my own words, but never the less...
Men follow men like men. Men who try to follow like women just do not get it
or something.
When men dance it is like a friendly fight with exchange of lead and follow
on every step: fighting for the lead, fighting for a gancho, fighting for a
surprise, attack and defense, ...
Right?
Igor Polk
PS.
And thank you all those excellent dancers we've danced in Denver together,
each dance was unforgettable!
Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 17:17:57 -0400
From: "TangoDC.com" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango reflects society - introduction
To: tango-L@mit.edu
Igor (and dear readers),
You're absolutely right-- and I must now add something to my
interminable notes.
Men SWAP leading when they dance with each other. Often, at any rate. It
seems to happen more frequently with two fellas than it does with a
man-woman pair, as the latter tend (from what I've seen) to keep their
roles distinct for at least a song.
About your point, however-- I wonder if this more aggressive kind of
following you describe can really be called good following. It's
certainly not passive and boring; but where do we draw the line between
"following like a man" and backleading?
Jake Spatz
Washington, DC
Igor Polk wrote:
> Thank you, Jake, I like your post so much!!
>
> ".. When two women dance together, there is still a pair of female legs to
> show off.." - two pairs!
>
> But I want to make an addition. I can not provide you with any links besides
> my own words, but never the less...
>
> Men follow men like men. Men who try to follow like women just do not get it
> or something.
>
> When men dance it is like a friendly fight with exchange of lead and follow
> on every step: fighting for the lead, fighting for a gancho, fighting for a
> surprise, attack and defense, ...
>
> Right?
>
> Igor Polk
> PS.
> And thank you all those excellent dancers we've danced in Denver together,
> each dance was unforgettable!
>
>
>
>
Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 14:36:54 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango reflects society - introduction
To: <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
I probably could try to specify a line between "following like a man" and
backleading, but I am not sure on the term "backleading". Please, specify
what you mean under that then I'll be able to answer.
Igor.
Date: Tue, 30 May 2006 16:33:19 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango reflects society - introduction
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
All right, I sort of busy, so can not wait too long without loosing
momentum.
There is no line to specify "between 'following like a man' and
backleading", Jake.
As far as I understand "backleading" is something bad, but I am talking
about something good there. So these things are incomparable.
Technique of "following like a man" is exactly the same as technique of
following like a woman. At least in major parts. The difference is attitude.
Woman makes a boleo for pleasure of the dance and deliver pleasure to her
partner. To show a beautiful leg, if you wish. A man's boleo is an evasive
action and then probably an attack. Do you feel what I mean?
Or it could be done like two partners are doing something together. Like
same-side warriors in a combat. Then boleo could be a "reinforcement", help.
I know two ways of "SWAP"ing the lead ( without changing the embrace; it is
like playing chess by white and back): lead can be given or taken. "Given",
it is pretty clear. In the first man-to-man dance it can be used as a
"setup" only. In the second, it is used routinely. "Taken", or interception
of the lead can be used in both.
Of course, if two partners "take the lead" at the same time and no one gives
up, it could lead to a dance halt. Which is not a bad idea by itself if it
lasts reasonably short. It is a dance, not a fight, so it should be some
rules played.
That is what I know about it.
Igor.
PS. Anyway, could someone tell me what is generally understood under
"backleading"?
PSS. Who said that men in a man-to-man dance should be always men?
Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 12:15:32 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango reflects society - introduction
To: <spatz@tangoDC.com>, <tango-L@mit.edu>
Jake Spatz wrote:
> * The vocabulary of follower's moves was specifically developed to show
> off a woman's legs
While on one hand I may thank you for your fascination with the beauty of
women's legs, on the other hand, I (and probably most of the rest of us
here, I imagine) do not quite agree with you.
It has been said many times, that the man's job in tango is to show off the
woman. Note: the woman as such, not just some part of her body that may be
of special interest to you.
Actually, in my opinion, those dancers that sit on the side with their eyes
fixed in fascination on the feet or legs of the dancers are missing
something about tango. Their conception of the dance is limited, in my
opinion, as they keep trying to figure out the steps people are using,
without looking at the connection or the lead and follow interplay, which
happens far above their chosen eye level, or the state of tango-oblivion
that couple may have reached which would be shown on their faces which are
also out of their sight. (I am not saying that those people stare at the
legs because they are into nice legs, like Jake here...)
As far as men following men is concerned:
The men here I have seen don't need to wear drag or "find their masculinity
in following". The men dancing with men-shows I have seen were some of the
sexiest things on earth. Those two men were men alright, and from what I
know, the molinete step formation originated from the moves of two fighting
men circling each other warily with a knife in their hands.
We once had a performance of Cristian and Gonzalo which sent the whole
audience screaming and reeling. Ever seen two strong, tall men leading each
other into jumps alternately? And can you imagine what those jumps look
like? I think, the combined force of two leaders can create a fascinating
dynamic.
On the other hand, we also have Cristian demonstrating steps with Manuel,
and Manuel is quite small and slight, compared to Cristian, and Manuel loves
to dance valse, showing of his legs in long steps... This always brings a
bemused smile to people's faces.
And then we have Oscar Mandagaran, who will ask a student to lead him, to
show the women how to dance like a sexy woman... He gets applause every
time, because he can be so unbelievably cute in that way.
>
Will get into the "raison d'etre" of my heels another day. I am a practical
person, even in tango...
; )
Astrid
