4374  Tango Roles-A learning moment comes before a

Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 22:04:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Roles-A learning moment comes before a
teaching moment
To: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>, tango-l@mit.edu

Dear Sergio:

This is a list of self taught inexperienced teachers
and I am afraid they have no real interest in learning
about Argentine culture, unless they can re-sell it as
a US American product and call it Argentine. Token
Argentines are accepted, but not if they contradict
the US American way of doing things. I wish you luck
with them.

Thank you for the great insight into Argentine
culture, which explains why Argentine tango has
electricity and US American tango does not. At this
point, I have pretty much lost my patience with the
people here on this list, and I will be posting much
less often now. I am giving up on them. I have had
my say, and I do not want to waste more of my time.
They don't "get it", do not want to "get it", and some
will never "get it". I will avoid dancing with women
from the USA in the future who do not understand that
the man leads, the woman follows. Women are all
powerful as women, but less powerful as men. Everyone
have a great day.

Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com

--- Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear friends of tango,
>
> The premise is that in tango
> like in life there is a
> masculine and a feminine role.
>
> These roles are played when you dance or perhaps
> they are not evident in
> your dancing.
>
> I am going to translate some paragraphs from Nicole
> Nau's book "Tango, Un
> Baile muy Portenio"
> the book was edited in November of 2000.
>
> I could explain this according to my own experience
> but I am going to avoid
> doing that due to all the problems we have been
> having before.
>
> What follows is not antiquity, is today. It is not
> my saying this is the way
> it is . is a German woman who came to Argentina to
> learn about its culture,
> tango and life in genral.
>
> Nicole Nau says in her book (page 159):
>
> " Generally speaking the world of the woman and
> that of the man are totally
> separated in Argentina. This causes that the woman
> on one side is a total
> enigma and a mystery for the man and the masculine
> universe is accepted by
> the woman as something unknown and a fortress to be
> respected.
>
> Each one knows of his specific strength and that of
> the other sex avoiding
> the fatal consequences of : comparing, competing or
> lack of trust.
>
> To be "macho" in Argentina means to be a man with
> all his privileges but
> also with all his obligations.
>
> In public he is the chief. There is no discussion
> whatsoever in this
> respect. Both know it. But "to be a man" in
> Argentina does not only means to
> have a woman but also to be responsible for her, to
> protect her.
>
> It is like having a treasure in this life, for which
> is worth to fight day
> and night. A beautiful woman.
> In this fashion "machismo" in Argentina has no
> negative implication, quite
> the opposite, to be macho is an excellent
> characteristic.
>
> Women, specially in the tango world, organize all
> activities in such a way,
> that the man be convinced that what is happening was
> according to his
> desires. In this form the world will be in perfect
> order for him. Men flirt
> with women all the time . He is pleased by a smile,
> or a special look:
> something that suggests that he could have her if he
> wanted her. This is a
> totally innocent attitude, there is no threat
> whatsoever.
> Both women and men know how to play this game
> without burning their
> fingers. Both feel the potentiality of something but
> they do not allow it to
> happen.
>
> Masculine (page. 163)
>
> Masculine is synonymous with activity, greatness,
> vigor, strength.
>
> A firm position on the floor, with legs somewhat
> apart constitutes a
> masculine symbol, the same way as the decision and
> poise in stepping without
> hesitation, to step with firmness. The man is the
> one that leads, if there
> is a dialog with a woman is because he wishes it to
> happen and not because
> he is supposed to do it. His position is solid and
> stable at any moment. He
> is the center.
>
> He dances with plenty of resources, he is ready for
> the unexpected. He never
> gets close to his limits.
> He never abandons his central position. The woman
> brushes his body, he never
> brushes hers.
> He embraces her waist, a sign that indicates
> possession.
>
> Protection and domination at the same time. His
> torso erect, symbolizes the
> power of the "Ego", dominion of space and security.
> His left hand closed
> represents strength.
>
> Feminine (page 164)
>
> Feminine symbolizes reception, execution, smallness,
> weakness and
> sensibility, harmony and equilibrium. Her life at
> home, the emotional.
> Growth where the man sees facts. She gets pregnant
> and gives life.
>
> In tango she receives the man's conduction, her
> feminine aspect lays in the
> quality of her movement.
> Women find with more ease elasticity and harmony in
> her movements than the
> man does.
>
> He is loaded with heavier cultural and social
> burdens.
>
> The woman in tango leans on the man's body. She
> looks for her place like the
> bird that looks for protection in his nest. The
> man's hand on her back
> underlines the femininity of her forms. They seem
> more delicate in
> comparison to the strength of the man's hand. The
> stronger his hand the more
> fragile her body looks. Her movements are smooth and
> elastic.
>
> The embrace is like a V with a closed side an an
> open side. The closed side
> represents closeness and intimacy, the open side
> distance. One must learn to
> notice and feel the differences within that
> embrace." end of quotation.
>
> The same as in real life the man is poised, steps
> with decision, without
> hesitation, he is strong and firm. Guides and is
> prepared for the
> unexpected, he improvises. he never gets close to
> his limits.
> He protects and respects the limits imposed by the
> woman to his embrace.
>
> She is fragile, receptive, looks for protection in
> his embrace and in his
> chest. She is smooth and elastic, dances with
> harmony and beauty.
>
> When you go to a gay milonga in B.A., 'La Marshall'
> for instance on
> Wednesdays nights, you will see couples dancing very
> good tango formed by
> two men : one of them leading, showing his masculine
> role the other one
> following performing his feminine role.
>
> Or a couple formed by two women : one dressed with a
> suit and wearing a tie
> or dressed as a woman but leading in an obviously
> masculine way the other
> one following with a very feminine attitude.
>
> They dance very well and create a perfect tango full
> of feeling, emotion
> with perfect communication and connection.
>
> The result would be very different if both partners
> danced with a masculine
> or a femine attitude.
>
> In this last case the resultant tango would be not
> as full of feeling,
> passion and connection as before. the one done by
> the two followeers will
> be weak and the one done by the two leaders would
> look as having the
> components of a fight.
>
> The American friends I have that at present live in
> Argentina told me not to
> talk about this subject because people abroad will
> not understand it does
> not matter in what way you explained.
>
> This is all I am going to say, if you understood
> fine if you did not
> understand disregard what I just translated from
> Nicole's book.
>
> Have a good day, Sergio.
>
> PS. at no time I mean to be patronizing or trying to
> impose any rules to
> your dancing or to your life.
> Please feel free to continue doing what pleases you
> the most. It is a shame
> that I have to be so defensive in order to share my
> knowledge with you. To
> all those that wrote to me I will answer in right
> time.
>
>
> Download today - it's FREE!
>
>
>
>

Derik Rawson
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
https://www.rawsonweb.com
713-522-0888 USA Landline Direct to Portable Cell Phone
281-754-4315 USA Landline Voice/Fax
d.rawson@cal.berkeley.edu
d.rawson@haas.alum.berkeley.edu
rawsonweb@yahoo.com
Europe/Asia
rawsonweb@compuserve.com
Paris, France

Date: Sun, 4 Jun 2006 22:05:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Roles-A learning moment comes before a
teaching moment
To: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>, tango-l@mit.edu

Dear Sergio:

This is a list of self taught inexperienced teachers
and I am afraid they have no real interest in learning
about Argentine culture, unless they can re-sell it as
a US American product and call it Argentine. Token
Argentines are accepted, but not if they contradict
the US American way of doing things. I wish you luck
with them.

Thank you for the great insight into Argentine
culture, which explains why Argentine tango has
electricity and US American tango does not. At this
point, I have pretty much lost my patience with the
people here on this list, and I will be posting much
less often now. I am giving up on them. I have had
my say, and I do not want to waste more of my time.
They don't "get it", do not want to "get it", and some
will never "get it". I will avoid dancing with women
from the USA in the future who do not understand that
the man leads, the woman follows. Women are all
powerful as women, but less powerful as men. Everyone
have a great day.

Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com

--- Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear friends of tango,
>
> The premise is that in tango
> like in life there is a
> masculine and a feminine role.
>
> These roles are played when you dance or perhaps
> they are not evident in
> your dancing.
>
> I am going to translate some paragraphs from Nicole
> Nau's book "Tango, Un
> Baile muy Portenio"
> the book was edited in November of 2000.
>
> I could explain this according to my own experience
> but I am going to avoid
> doing that due to all the problems we have been
> having before.
>
> What follows is not antiquity, is today. It is not
> my saying this is the way
> it is . is a German woman who came to Argentina to
> learn about its culture,
> tango and life in genral.
>
> Nicole Nau says in her book (page 159):
>
> " Generally speaking the world of the woman and
> that of the man are totally
> separated in Argentina. This causes that the woman
> on one side is a total
> enigma and a mystery for the man and the masculine
> universe is accepted by
> the woman as something unknown and a fortress to be
> respected.
>
> Each one knows of his specific strength and that of
> the other sex avoiding
> the fatal consequences of : comparing, competing or
> lack of trust.
>
> To be "macho" in Argentina means to be a man with
> all his privileges but
> also with all his obligations.
>
> In public he is the chief. There is no discussion
> whatsoever in this
> respect. Both know it. But "to be a man" in
> Argentina does not only means to
> have a woman but also to be responsible for her, to
> protect her.
>
> It is like having a treasure in this life, for which
> is worth to fight day
> and night. A beautiful woman.
> In this fashion "machismo" in Argentina has no
> negative implication, quite
> the opposite, to be macho is an excellent
> characteristic.
>
> Women, specially in the tango world, organize all
> activities in such a way,
> that the man be convinced that what is happening was
> according to his
> desires. In this form the world will be in perfect
> order for him. Men flirt
> with women all the time . He is pleased by a smile,
> or a special look:
> something that suggests that he could have her if he
> wanted her. This is a
> totally innocent attitude, there is no threat
> whatsoever.
> Both women and men know how to play this game
> without burning their
> fingers. Both feel the potentiality of something but
> they do not allow it to
> happen.
>
> Masculine (page. 163)
>
> Masculine is synonymous with activity, greatness,
> vigor, strength.
>
> A firm position on the floor, with legs somewhat
> apart constitutes a
> masculine symbol, the same way as the decision and
> poise in stepping without
> hesitation, to step with firmness. The man is the
> one that leads, if there
> is a dialog with a woman is because he wishes it to
> happen and not because
> he is supposed to do it. His position is solid and
> stable at any moment. He
> is the center.
>
> He dances with plenty of resources, he is ready for
> the unexpected. He never
> gets close to his limits.
> He never abandons his central position. The woman
> brushes his body, he never
> brushes hers.
> He embraces her waist, a sign that indicates
> possession.
>
> Protection and domination at the same time. His
> torso erect, symbolizes the
> power of the "Ego", dominion of space and security.
> His left hand closed
> represents strength.
>
> Feminine (page 164)
>
> Feminine symbolizes reception, execution, smallness,
> weakness and
> sensibility, harmony and equilibrium. Her life at
> home, the emotional.
> Growth where the man sees facts. She gets pregnant
> and gives life.
>
> In tango she receives the man's conduction, her
> feminine aspect lays in the
> quality of her movement.
> Women find with more ease elasticity and harmony in
> her movements than the
> man does.
>
> He is loaded with heavier cultural and social
> burdens.
>
> The woman in tango leans on the man's body. She
> looks for her place like the
> bird that looks for protection in his nest. The
> man's hand on her back
> underlines the femininity of her forms. They seem
> more delicate in
> comparison to the strength of the man's hand. The
> stronger his hand the more
> fragile her body looks. Her movements are smooth and
> elastic.
>
> The embrace is like a V with a closed side an an
> open side. The closed side
> represents closeness and intimacy, the open side
> distance. One must learn to
> notice and feel the differences within that
> embrace." end of quotation.
>
> The same as in real life the man is poised, steps
> with decision, without
> hesitation, he is strong and firm. Guides and is
> prepared for the
> unexpected, he improvises. he never gets close to
> his limits.
> He protects and respects the limits imposed by the
> woman to his embrace.
>
> She is fragile, receptive, looks for protection in
> his embrace and in his
> chest. She is smooth and elastic, dances with
> harmony and beauty.
>
> When you go to a gay milonga in B.A., 'La Marshall'
> for instance on
> Wednesdays nights, you will see couples dancing very
> good tango formed by
> two men : one of them leading, showing his masculine
> role the other one
> following performing his feminine role.
>
> Or a couple formed by two women : one dressed with a
> suit and wearing a tie
> or dressed as a woman but leading in an obviously
> masculine way the other
> one following with a very feminine attitude.
>
> They dance very well and create a perfect tango full
> of feeling, emotion
> with perfect communication and connection.
>
> The result would be very different if both partners
> danced with a masculine
> or a femine attitude.
>
> In this last case the resultant tango would be not
> as full of feeling,
> passion and connection as before. the one done by
> the two followeers will
> be weak and the one done by the two leaders would
> look as having the
> components of a fight.
>
> The American friends I have that at present live in
> Argentina told me not to
> talk about this subject because people abroad will
> not understand it does
> not matter in what way you explained.
>
> This is all I am going to say, if you understood
> fine if you did not
> understand disregard what I just translated from
> Nicole's book.
>
> Have a good day, Sergio.
>
> PS. at no time I mean to be patronizing or trying to
> impose any rules to
> your dancing or to your life.
> Please feel free to continue doing what pleases you
> the most. It is a shame
> that I have to be so defensive in order to share my
> knowledge with you. To
> all those that wrote to me I will answer in right
> time.
>
>
> Download today - it's FREE!
>
>
>
>

Derik Rawson
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
https://www.rawsonweb.com
713-522-0888 USA Landline Direct to Portable Cell Phone
281-754-4315 USA Landline Voice/Fax
d.rawson@cal.berkeley.edu
d.rawson@haas.alum.berkeley.edu
rawsonweb@yahoo.com
Europe/Asia
rawsonweb@compuserve.com
Paris, France

Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 01:50:50 EDT
From: Euroking@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Roles-A learning moment comes before a
teaching moment
To: d.rawson@rawsonweb.com, sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com,
tango-l@mit.edu


Dear Derik,
Before you go, if you must, consider for once that the world does not
revolve around you beliefs, or mine, no matter how strongly we might believe them,
nor how much we believe the rest of the world might need to believe what we
believe.
Also with the absence of death there are probably no real absolutes. We are
a product of our environment, not of solitude. We learn by listening and
responding, we learn from others, not that what they say is right, but what is
right is the fact they said it. Even when they may be wrong in my mind, I
learn something, I am able to grow.
I am not a Tango teacher, self taught or taught, I enjoy the dance, the
music and the history of the culture that begat Tango. I want to learn and
experience more. Someone once defined an expert as "the person present with the
most knowledge of a subject". This List has as many experts as it has
neophytes, students as well as teachers. It is a great mix of people with rich
opinions and knowledge. If we all agreed with you, or if they all agreed with me,
the list would evaporate as there would be nothing to discuss, nothing to
debate.
While I prefer rationale discussion, the occasional passion of a belief is
great also. What is disheartening and not productive is when we start shooting
at each and not the subject at hand. Passion in argument is exhilarating,
but when it digresses into personal attacks and when we start taking comments,
whether intended or not, personally we are raising to the bait and we lose.
While I personally have thought your methodology of writing is baiting and
arrogant at times, you do make many good points and I have learned from you.
It just upsets me is that I almost miss them because of all the chaff you
throw out but that is you. We can't nor should not try to change that, only you
can. That is what choice is about.
Just some thoughts before you fade into the sunset
Bill in Seattle

Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 17:17:33 +0800
From: Kace <kace@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Roles-A learning moment comes before a
teaching moment
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Derik Rawson wrote:

> Dear Sergio:
>
> This is a list of self taught inexperienced teachers
> and I am afraid they have no real interest in learning
> about Argentine culture, unless they can re-sell it as
> a US American product and call it Argentine. Token
> Argentines are accepted, but not if they contradict
> the US American way of doing things. I wish you luck
> with them.

Good debates cannot be advanced if sweeping statements like these
are used as the basis of argument.

Tango is a world heritage now. Argentina and Uruguay may define where
its roots are, but its future lies in the combined action of participants
everywhere in the world.

We cannot and should not disown the past. However, as individual dancers,
it is a personal choice whether or not one chooses to follow the traditions.
It defines our relationship with our music, our dance partners, our choice
of dance venues and communities --- essentially our own lifestyle.

Not observing a tradition, however, is not the same as not knowing
what the tradition is. People who play leadership roles in
their own communities -- teachers and organisers -- must
assume the responsibility to pass on the correct historical perspective
to newly inducted members, and to share the essential facts
and "best practices" without personal bias.

This is doubly important where pretenders like ballroom
organisations and Hollywood have their own agendas to
rewrite tango.

Let's face it ... we will never come to a final conclusion on most
of the argument on this list. Let's rejoice in the fact that there is
still a healthy dialog going on instead of closed minds ---
never mind the bad attitude and ego clashes.

Kace
tangosingapore.com

Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 13:41:47 +0000 (GMT)
From: Lucia <curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango Roles-A learning moment comes before a
teaching moment
To: d.rawson@rawsonweb.com, Sergio Vandekier
<sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>, tango-l@mit.edu

Dear Derik, Sergio and all:

I believe that the latest, spirited exhanges regarding the differences between the American and Argentine Tango portend well for the development of North American Tango.

Argentine Tango provided the impetus for the popularization of Tango in the world, the time has come for each nation to reclaim its own identity and modify the import according in its own way of life.

I think that we are witnessing this process taking place when viewing the ideas exchanged on the list. There should be no rancor towards this process as there is none, for example, towards the Finnish Tango, and I can foresee a time when we could eventually see the emergence of a characteristic N. American Tango...

The strife between the Tango traditionalists and the innovators has been running since the Decarian split and is not going to ever cease, but we have to understand and accept the changes due to contemporaneity and national aspirations...as we do with everything else...

Lucia

PS I refered to N. American Tango since the vast majority of the correspondents on the list appear to be from the US.
My apologies to the correspondents from other countries, for my remarks apply to their societies as well.

Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@yahoo.com> escribi?: Dear Sergio:

This is a list of self taught inexperienced teachers
and I am afraid they have no real interest in learning
about Argentine culture, unless they can re-sell it as
a US American product and call it Argentine. Token
Argentines are accepted, but not if they contradict
the US American way of doing things. I wish you luck
with them.

Thank you for the great insight into Argentine
culture, which explains why Argentine tango has
electricity and US American tango does not. At this
point, I have pretty much lost my patience with the
people here on this list, and I will be posting much
less often now. I am giving up on them. I have had
my say, and I do not want to waste more of my time.
They don't "get it", do not want to "get it", and some
will never "get it". I will avoid dancing with women
from the USA in the future who do not understand that
the man leads, the woman follows. Women are all
powerful as women, but less powerful as men. Everyone
have a great day.

Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com

--- Sergio Vandekier
wrote:

> Dear friends of tango,
>
>

?Tu correo te queda chico?
1GB gratis, protecci?n antivirus y contra el correo basura
Correo Yahoo!
?Tenelo ya!

Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 11:54:31 -0400
From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango Roles-A learning moment comes before a
teaching moment
To: tango-l@mit.edu, myst9990@hotmail.com

" Women are all powerful as women, but less powerful as men."

Whatever you say, Derik. Bye bye.

Caroline

Have fun with your friends online! Look and sound great doing it. Start with
a video from Microsoft
https://www.microsoft.com/canada/home/videos/default.asp