4450  Transition from Intermediate to Advanced

Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 10:50:31 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: [Tango-L] Transition from Intermediate to Advanced

On Jul 5, 2006, at 7:01 AM, astrid wrote:

>> Tom wrote:
>> I've recently noticed in several different venues, that the women
>> have not been living up to the skill level of the men. There may be
>> many explanations, but I think fundamentally, women learn quickly at
>> first, but have a much more difficult path going from Intermediate to
>> Advanced. Men learn slowly and steadily from the very beginning.
>
> I do not agree with Tom, and maybe his community has a very
> different set up
> from ours, too. But Chris is right to the point.

By different venues, let me be more specific: US Festivals, US
Travel, Buenos Aires milongas.

By "Advanced" I mean both technical ability, subtlety and musical
expressiveness. An advanced leader can transform an intermediate
follower. An advanced follower can transform an intermediate leader.


From Astrid's descriptions, Tokyo sounds like the very different
case. Denver is similar to other mid-sized US cities with 10 years of
tango like Portland, Seattle, Atlanta, and others. (We have 100-120
person milongas twice per week, and another 40-80 two or three
times). Tokyo's huge excess of women and studio-functions (milongas?)
seem quite bizarre.

I agree with Astrid that women can progress rapidly by taking
privates, especially if they have ballet or other training, and that
women are much more likely than men to seek improvement via privates.

I also agree with others that there is a large "complacent-
intermediate" faction everywhere (men & women). And, obviously we
experience lots of beginners and bad dancers.


MORE MEN TRANSITIONING?

My observation and my point here, is that I have the recent
impression of more men transitioning from Intermediate to Advanced,
and I've seen more women sticking at Adv-intermediate than a few
years ago. (Yes, I'm generalizing, and "more" is just my subjective
opinion. I'm talking about the average across a room of dancers, not
the exceptions we can all point to. Take out the pros and the
beginners...)

For example, in Buenos Aires this year I felt there were more good
men than good women. But, in general the level in BA has dropped
dramatically from 10 or 5 years ago, even in the good afternoon
milongas where you do have many excellent dancers.

Second example, in festivals and among foreigners in Buenos Aires you
see intermediate & advanced women traveling to find better men to
dance with (just as Astrid describes), whereas few intermediate men
have similar drive or confidence, so the traveling men tend to be
more advanced.


ENOUGH ABOUT BEGINNER FLAWS.

The discussions on Tango-L frequently seem to bog down discussing
beginner flaws (men pushing; women doing ochos on their own), as if
the biggest problem in tango is that the local teachers aren't having
a lot of success getting people from beginner to intermediate.

The big issues for the Advanced transformation:
(1) Learning how to learn.
(2) Pride, dedication, seeking of perfection.
(3) Talent & technical or athletic ability,.
(4) Musicality, Inspiration and physical expressiveness.


LEARNING PROCESS

Getting back to the difference in learning process for men and women.

It could be that the difficulties faced by men at the beginning
filters out the less talented or less persistent. It filters in the
kind of men who like the challenges and puzzles of tango, men who
have the ability to learn in a focused way, and men who are more
confident or bold, characteristics important for advanced dancing.

And conversely, the (comparatively) easy experience women have at the
beginning doesn't prepare them for working harder as tango moves to
the higher level. The experience of having a great leader give a
woman an amazing dance gives her the experience of early success, and
fools her into thinking all she needs to do is work on following well
and have a decent leaders.


Here's my concluding thought.

At first tango learning filters for women with good RECEPTIVE skills
(following), while for men it filters for good ASSERTIVE skills
(leading). In other words, going from beginner to intermediate trains
up or favors learning styles for the women that are insufficient or
even detrimental for going from Intermediate to Advanced.

Because the men are (typically) the leaders, they are always
proposing ideas in the dance. So the learning process of beginning
tango prepares men for the skills they need for the Intermediate to
Advanced transition

I'm going to suggest that women would take a huge step upwards if
they worked at leading.

I would also suggest that men are greatly improved if they work on
the follower's role.

These are not new insights. Daniel Trenner has long advocated this
training method. I have personally experienced it to be beneficial. I
now feel that maybe it is highly useful, if not essential.

> The truth is, there are lots of things a woman can learn in classes or
> private lessons, but ultimately, her range of expression and
> chances to put
> her ability to use depends on who she dances with. In our community
> we have
> quite a number of women who are good dancers. Women flock to
> lessons, and
> also often take series of (private) lessons with Rivarola, Oscar
> Mandagaran,
> Jorge Torres, Balmaceda etcetc. whenever they come to town. The
> men, on the
> other hand, are rarely found in expensive workshops, master
> classes, and
> even less in privadas, and some not even in milongas. So, many men
> either
> never really learn how to dance, some do and forever stagnate
> around the
> intermediate level, a few take workshops in California, BA,
> Scandinavia etc.
> during business trips, and a few master classes in Tokyo, besides
> studying
> or not with some Japanese teacher they never talk about, and every
> time I
> meet one of those, they have either improved a lot and are just
> back from
> some trip or busy with some master classes, or their skill has
> dropped to
> floppy and vague again, because they have not been dancing for a
> while, and
> have once again forgotten most of what they knew for a while.
> ...
> So, Tom, in my experience, men do not at all learn slowly and
> steadily from
> the beginning, women do learn more quickly, and may have some
> difficulty
> reaching advanced stage, but that is mainly for lack of a partner
> suitable
> to their own level, not because they would not have the skill or
> willingness
> to get there. Some of our best women here simply go to dance
> overseas, in BA
> or whereever, to get a better choice of partners and I have heard
> of US
> women doing the same.
> Another obstacle for upper intermediate women is that certain men
> eternally
> prefer to drag around some cute new face beginner who may not know
> how to
> dance but is easily impressed. How do you compete with that?
> In Tokyo, tango is a men's world, even if there are not so many of
> them
> around...
>
> Astrid's 2 cents
>
> P.S.
> Tom, what do you define as "advanced level"?

Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 12:19:46 -0700
From: "Jonathan Thornton" <obscurebardo@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Transition from Intermediate to Advanced
To: "Tom Stermitz" <stermitz@tango.org>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<f9247e8a0607051219y7f1568abq5eedd68d70759289@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/5/06, Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org> wrote:

>
> On Jul 5, 2006, at 7:01 AM, astrid wrote:
>
> >> Tom wrote:
> I'm going to suggest that women would take a huge step upwards if
> they worked at leading.
>
> I would also suggest that men are greatly improved if they work on
> the follower's role.
>
> These are not new insights. Daniel Trenner has long advocated this
> training method. I have personally experienced it to be beneficial. I
> now feel that maybe it is highly useful, if not essential.

Tom,

As far as dancing goes this seems like one good approach. I want to suggest
something that is perhaps complementary to your concerns.

Because I am particularly unathletic and started dancing at the age of 50 as
far as I can tell I will never be an advanced dancer. This sometimes bothers
me but on the other hand I'm not really a dancer anyway, nor do I dance for
the dance. I am a music lover and I dance to express my appreciation of the
music and to find a way to explore and express the feelings I experience
listening to the music.

I am not a complacent intermediate because I work on improving my
fundamentals and I do challenge myself to learn some new material but most
advanced material is beyond my ability to assimilate to the point I can
dance it expressively. So I'm a close embrace 5 step dancer some folks on
this list are so critical of.

>From my perspective what I seek most in partners is feeling for the music.

What I find most lacking in US tango is feeling for the music. What I would
most want to see emphasized in classes is that dancers listen to the music,
listen to how they feel and listen to how their partner is feeling and to
share and communicate that moment to moment flow of feeling.

This can't be explicitly taught in the way that technique is but I think
first of all it needs to be brought to students' attention and although I
don't know of tango appreciation classes I do know that colleges offer
classes in classical music and jazz appreciation. I am thinking I should
take one of those classes partly to see if it's possible to help people to
learn to more deeply experience music.

>From my observation advanced dancers tend to be have started young, younger

than myself at least, with good dance ability and then were motivated to
spend a lot of time in classes and practising. I think in most communities
less than half the people will meet those qualifications.

So although I enjoy watching advanced dancers and wish I could join that
group I'm more concerned that intermediates develop sensitivity to the music
and partnering and keep refining their fundamentals. I think those two
things are enough for satisfying dances. I think an expectation that most
dancers can, should, or need to become advanced is unrealistic as many
people don't have the abilities, time, money, or inclinations to reach that
level.

I think advanced dancers are of value to a community in several ways but I
think the over all dance experience at a milonga may be more importantly
related to the music, how sensitive the dancers are to it, and to how well
they partner and relate to the other dancers on the floor. So, I'm thinking
intermediate fundamentals are more important to a community than are
advanced tango dancing skills. To use a tired cliche the advanced dancers
provide the beautiful frosting but the quality of cake comes from sound
intermediate dancers.

Jonathan Thornton





--
"The tango can be debated, and we have debates over it,
but it still encloses, as does all that which is truthful, a secret."
Jorge Luis Borges

Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 15:58:36 EDT
From: Euroking@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Transition from Intermediate to Advanced
To: obscurebardo@gmail.com, stermitz@tango.org
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu


Jonathan,
I agree with your perspective and it begs a question in my mine to many on
this list. My comments are not critical to anyone's points of view, as I have
found them enlightening. First, I consider myself a beginning intermediate.
Can I get better; I certainly hope so, as I am willing to devote time
(essential) and an open mind. Can I ever achieve "Advanced status", I don't know and
furthermore I don't care, as "advance status" is in the eyes of the
beholder, and as long as I work towards my goal of being better, I will be
successful.
What I read here is there are people feeling their success depends on
someone else. Can't anyone just dance for the fun of dancing? Or are we complaining
about people who are doing just that. My partner and spouse, is a great
dancer, but she really does not feel a great need to break everything down to
the nth degree. I have found that when I dance with her the mutual pleasure is
gained when I keep things simple, basic steps, ochos and giro or two, and do
it slower and to the music. It is a very pleasant time. She asks what about
what you learned in class, why don't you use it. Well when I do, it is usually
a pleasant experience, because I am learning it, which implies my leads are
not a clear and crisp, as they should be. Also is the factor as a follow she
has not invested the time she needs to follow. Should I be upset, no? Should
she, no. We have a level where there is mutual enjoyment. That is good.
Will this keep me from trying to learn more of be more precise? Hell no, I
am obsessed with Tango. I will go on. As I learn more, the more I can give to
her, but I am not forcing the issue.
I guess what I am asking, if we have a group in the community that are
enjoying the experience and are dancing, should we be or trying to impose to
impose our obsessions on them. Or should we step back and learn to enjoy.
A side point, I fully understand the desire for advance leads or follows to
maximize their moments and the pain (not physical) we who are on the path
might inflict in our process of learning but we keep using the term community,
and in my mind a community is made up of all levels and all types, unless we
want each of our communities to be exclusive, we need to enjoy what we have.
Just some thoughts,

Bill in Seattle

Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 16:05:17 -0400
From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Transition from Intermediate to Advanced
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Hello Bill in Seattle

I agree with you, even the most simplest of dances can be enjoyable as long
as the dancers are actually having a good time. That is what I love about
Montreal, there's no need to adorn each step with a kick, the focus is more
on close embrace and responding to the music rather than how much
choreography the dancer knows.

If the dancer is not moved by the music nor does he seem to be having a good
time, his or her partner is going to notice it and thus, be affected.

Caroline

Search your PC with MSN Desktop Search https://desktop.sympatico.msn.ca/

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 04:53:13 -0500
From: "Ron Weigel" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Transition from Intermediate to Advanced
To: "Jonathan Thornton" <obscurebardo@gmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<cff24c340607060253ub3d1197j116e145968d2fde0@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/5/06, Jonathan Thornton <obscurebardo@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I am not a complacent intermediate because I work on improving my
> fundamentals and I do challenge myself to learn some new material but most
> advanced material is beyond my ability to assimilate to the point I can
> dance it expressively. So I'm a close embrace 5 step dancer some folks on
> this list are so critical of.
>
> So although I enjoy watching advanced dancers and wish I could join that
> group I'm more concerned that intermediates develop sensitivity to the music
> and partnering and keep refining their fundamentals. I think those two
> things are enough for satisfying dances. I think an expectation that most
> dancers can, should, or need to become advanced is unrealistic as many
> people don't have the abilities, time, money, or inclinations to reach that
> level.

Jonathan is right on track. In Buenos Aires milongas one sees very
little of the complicated choreography that one sees at American
milongas. However, one does see quite a few good 'close embrace 5 step
dancers'. One of the main characteristics that differentiates the
advanced dancers in Buenos Aires is their musicality - their ability
to interpret the music in creative ways.

What I find surprising about so many Americans is that they want to
run before they know how to walk or, in today's terms, they want to do
off balance moves like colgadas and volcadas before they've learned
how to maintain their balance. Numerous dancers ignore the
fundamentals of good connection with partner and music and good
navigational skills that are acquired by remaining in regular classes
and instead supplement their tango education by picking up the latest
hot shot moves that can be emulated by taking an occasional workshop
or perhaps by learning it from their friends who learned it last
week's workshop. Advanced choreography may appear to make someone an
advanced dancer, but when dancing with them one has a different
experience - often a jerking ride that requires a call to the
chiropracter in the morning.

I don't think Tom was talking about that kind of 'advanced' dancer. In
reality the less conspicuous dancer who has been working on balance,
connection, awareness of partner, musicality, and navigation is the
more advanced dancer.

Assuming the quality of instruction is good and the student has the
right focus, staying in classes and taking private lessons will
improve the fundamentals. One can only become an advanced dancer after
mastering the fundamentals. One doesn't need an extensive step
repertoire to become an advanced dancer.

Ron