2926 V embrace
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 05:34:23 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: V embrace
I was considering traveling to Montreal for tango, however someone who
visited the city recently told me that people dance there in V embrace. He
also has mentioned that in his opinion over the years attendees to Portland
festival tend to dance more and more in V embrace as opposed to milonguero
chest to chest style. I wonder if this is common perception of the trend and
if so why is it happening. I have not observed the trend at Denver festival.
I personally have danced with a follower in V embrace only once and found
experience dissatisfying: even though there were no major problems with
lead-follow communication some of the smaller check steps where virtually
impossible to lead. The girl was visiting Boulder from London. Is V embrace
common in London?
Cheers, Oleh K.
Colorado Springs
https://TangoSpring.com
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:38:48 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: V embrace
Oleh says " I personally have danced with a follower in V embrace only once
and found
experience dissatisfying: even though there were no major problems with
lead-follow communication some of the smaller check steps where virtually
impossible to lead. The girl was visiting Boulder from London. Is V embrace
common in London? "
This type of misunderstanding could be avoided if teachers would properly
warn their students.
By saying -" Look I start dancing with a back step but many dancers will
start with a side step" or
" I use this type of tango embrace but other dancers will use a different
one"
It seems to me that most of the misconceptions always come from those that
learn to dance "Milonguero style" only. This in turn comes (IMO) from the
way certain teachers promote their style by misleading their students to
believe that the form they teach is "the only way you can dance", "the only
form for social dancing", " the only one where you can obtain a tango
trance", "the only one where you dance for your partner", " the other forms
are just for exhibition and for show off, you end up kicking everybody
around", etc, etc.
The tango embrace in Salon style, as taught and danced by most milongueros
all over the world requires that the man places his right nipple on the
chest bone of the woman. This embrace has a "closed"side (the right side of
the man and the left one of the woman) and an "open" side (the left side of
the man and the right one of the woman). It is asymmetrical, the position of
the bodies with respect to each other is like a V. This embrace is very
elegant and very conducive to leading any type of tango moves both in open
or in close embrace.
It is a minority of dancers, those than "only" dance milonguero style as
taught by Susana Miller and others that dance with a parallel tango embrace.
This second type of embrace causes some limitations with respect to the
moves that can be lead .People that are used to dance only in V embrace find
difficult to adjust to it and to place the head in the correct position.
Some of those in this second group may even argue that dancing in parallel
embrace is an impossible proposition. :)
The tango embrace depends then on the style of tango that you dance.
I use a V frame 90% of the time and a parallel frame when I dance milonguero
or during some walks in Salon close embrace.
I certainly hope that nobody feels offended to learn that there is more than
a form of tango embrace and that parallel embrace has some limitations with
respect to a V embrace as to leading certain moves, on the other hand, it
could be very gratifying as it permits a more intimate contact of the
chests.
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 11:14:00 -0400
From: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: V embrace]
I can't stand dancing in "V" embrace. Our alignment (buttons-to-buttons or
sternum-to-sternum) is gone. My partner and I have to dance like door and
wall hinges. A pin slides through the hinges to keep the door attached to
the hinge on the wall so that the door can swing (and possibly tango.)
There is an imaginary pin between my partner's chest and mine to keep us
together.
I've danced in V embrace, mostly because of poor frame on my part. If my
left arm extends to far forward, I push the woman to her left. Conversely,
if the woman presses hard with her right arm, she pushes herself away from
me into a V. With the alignment gone, I feel I can communicate with only
one side of the woman's chest.
Michael
Washington, DC
> Oleh says " I personally have danced with a follower in V embrace only
once > and found > experience dissatisfying: even though there were no
major problems with > lead-follow communication some of the smaller check
steps where virtually > impossible to lead.
--
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango!!
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 12:00:53 -0700
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: V Embrace
Now that I think about it, I would call the close-embrace I do, the "V".
I wasn't sure about the exact angle, although the frame is quite
flexible, easy to turn to the right, easy to open & close, etc.
.
Who on earth is teaching this parallel frame business & why?
Seems like its teaching someone a small dialect of a language
that hardly anybody uses. I even seen a velcro-vest contraption,
that glues dancers together, in the parallel frame, eeeeeeeeeek!
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 12:15:07 -0700
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: V embrace
I went to Montreal specifically for Tango several
years ago and had a great time. I recommend folks to
go there regardless of what dance style you prefer.
As for the V-frame, I wouldn't attribute the
difficulty of doing a particular movement on the
embrace itself. I first learned close-embrace in the
V-frame and have since moved to the parallel frame.
However, it generally isn't a major adjustment, as you
discovered. Women who may feel uncomfortable in the
chest-to-chest frame may feel more comfortable in the
V-frame.
I do find that subtle movements are easier to
lead/follow in the chest-to-chest frame. Same with
milonga traspie. I think that leading/following those
same movements in the V-frame may just be more
challenging but possible.
Happy embracing,
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> I was considering traveling to Montreal for tango,
> however someone who
> visited the city recently told me that people dance
> there in V embrace. He
> also has mentioned that in his opinion over the
> years attendees to Portland
> festival tend to dance more and more in V embrace as
> opposed to milonguero
> chest to chest style. I wonder if this is common
> perception of the trend and
> if so why is it happening. I have not observed the
> trend at Denver festival.
>
> I personally have danced with a follower in V
> embrace only once and found
> experience dissatisfying: even though there were no
> major problems with
> lead-follow communication some of the smaller check
> steps where virtually
> impossible to lead. The girl was visiting Boulder
> from London. Is V embrace
> common in London?
>
> Cheers, Oleh K.
> Colorado Springs
> https://TangoSpring.com
>
>
> Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer
> virus scan from McAfee.
> Security.
>
>
=====
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 03:41:38 +0200
From: Andreas Wichter <Andreas.Wichter@GMX.NET>
Subject: Re: V Embrace
Hello all,
this is one weird discussion. Again. Let me make a few points:
In my very first tango lesson, I learned that the woman determines the
embrace. The man can try and gently convince the woman to shift to the
type of embrace he wants, but pushing her away or pulling her close is a
no-no.
Which means if she moves to a V embrace, I have to dance that way. Which
means I must adjust my leading technique accordingly, since every embrace
requires certain changes in how I (can) lead. In the parallel, very close
embrace (and no, it4s not just chest contact, I actually prefer to feel
the woman4s body as much as possible, so it4s chest and belly for me,
please), you can do subtle things you can4t in more open embraces, for
example lead a boleo or a wiggle with no discernible body movement, using
the muscles on the front of your body. In a more open embrace, V or with a
distance, one tends to use more positioning. To stay with the boleo
example, you have the very small movements in the parallel embrace on one
end of the scale, and a step around the woman on the other end, with Villa
Urquiza/Nuevo. Different technique, on a sliding scale. If you can do only
one or the other, you limit yourself.
One is not better than the other, and while I myself prefer parallel/very
close, there is the case of one of my favorite partners who usually dances
in a slight V with me. Still feels great. With others I change according
to her/my mood, to the music etc. - which might mean with e.g. Firpo, I
might end up dancing at almost 90 degrees to the woman (but still close).
The advantages/disadvantages of the different kinds of embrace have been
discussed at length, and I might add in response to Rick that parallel
embrace is in no way limiting. I can usually do whatever I like without
opening, with very few exceptions. Other things I simply will not do
because they would require me to lose contact with the woman, which I
don4t want.
And Nicole, your musings have been answered, but have you never seen
people dance in parallel embrace? Did they all have blue knees?
and one last comment:
> Who on earth is teaching this parallel frame business & why?
> Seems like its teaching someone a small dialect of a language
> that hardly anybody uses.
And you would probably prefer all the world to speak English instead of
their pesky, nasty little local languages no civilised person
understands...
Shaking head,
Andreas (who does teach parallel and V, because it4s both tango)
--
Geschenkt: 3 Monate GMX ProMail + 3 Ausgaben der TV Movie mit DVD
++++ Jetzt anmelden und testen https://www.gmx.net/de/go/mail ++++
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 00:32:14 -0500
From: Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: V embrace
Hello Oleh, and list,
This "V-embrace" is very prevalent in Houston, and many other places. It
is generally considered (in my opinion) as "salon tango" in which the
partners never dance sternum to sternum, and alternate between close
embrace (v), and open embrace to achieve more extravagant steps. It can
be quite beautiful to watch, but not near as rewarding to dance as a
good simple milonguero tango (in my opinion).
The term "salon tango" has a very different meaning in Buenos Aires.
There it generally refers to the style of dance danced "in the salons"
(the milongas), and there it is what we would call milonguero, or
apilado. Here, in the US, "salon", as generally understood, is a style
that can be danced "close embrace", but in a "v-style", and can
alternate between close and open embrace.
You won't experience much salon in Denver (thank goodness!) But in other
cities....???? From my experience (limited), salon is here to stay, but
is quickly (relative term, give it another ten years!), being eclipsed
by milonguero/apilado. From my experience, a follower who experiences a
tanda of good, true, milonguero tango will yearn for more. Oleh, we just
have to keep it up!
You said about Portland<<<<More than 600 people went, only one has
returned with impressions worth writing about?>>>>>>>>Yup, I noticed the
same thing, and you know the main reason? In my opinion, and from what
I've heard from those that attended? Abominable, atrocious floorcraft.
Those are not my terms. That's what I was told by people who were there.
Look at the words again...abominable and atrocious. Can you imagine? Can
you believe that there were leaders sitting just because the floors were
dangerous? (That's what
I was told!)
Nevertheless; I'll be there in February also to say hello, and see what
all the fuss is about. If, in my own experience, the floorcraft is as
bad as what I've been told, I will probably never attend again, but I
have to see for myself!
AND, to finish all this off, Oleh, (and I've been meaning to write
sooner; just way too busy!), I like your ideas about sequencing tandas,
but 4 songs is generally too many in one tanda. Yeah, your idea is cool
about <<<<<<<<By the way why play four songs in the tanda? About half of
the first song in tanda is wasted on finding partner. Then it takes a
song or two to reacquaint with each other lead-follow habits and
orchestra's beat. This leaves the third song to dance in the "zone" and
it would be a shame to let go after only one song in the zone.>>>>>>>But
here's what I think; the first song is to get used to partner, the
second is to settle in and start perfecting, and the third is to
"hopefully" start "zoning". If you start "zoning", then you do the next
tanda, also!!! If you don't start "zoning" by the third song, then it's
time to move along!
I do my best to dance with as many followers as possible, Oleh, and your
4-song tandas cut way back on my opportunities to do so....and please,
please, don't do four milongas in a tanda; I'm not in good enough shape
for that!
Regards to all,
Michael from Houston
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 06:32:43 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: V embrace
Michael from Houston wrote:
>You said about Portland<<<<More than 600 people went, only one has
>returned with impressions worth writing about?>>>>>>>>Yup, I noticed the
>same thing, and you know the main reason? In my opinion, and from what
>I've heard from those that attended? Abominable, atrocious floorcraft.
Hello, Michael.
Actually I was interested in any personal impressions and hoped for good
ones. They are like a window to those of us who couldn't go and plan to go
some day. A postcard from a less mundane world.
I promiss to you I will not play more than three milongas in one tanda.
Cheers, Oleh K. from Colorado Springs
https://TangoSpring.com
Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:09:13 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: V Embrace
Andreas,
Yes, I too learned and honor the right of the woman to "determine the
embrace." But by that I mean the closeness of it. I as leader determine
where I hold her side-to-side in front of me. Like the earlier post said,
it's a matter of keeping my right arm more perpendicular to the plane of my
body rather than letting it open to the side, which has the consequence of
letting the follower move to my right. I don't think this violates any
sensitivity or boundary of the follower, it's just how I have learned to
lead.
J
----Original Message Follows----
From: Andreas Wichter <Andreas.Wichter@GMX.NET>
Reply-To: Andreas Wichter <Andreas.Wichter@GMX.NET>
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] V Embrace
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 01:43:39 -0700
From: p <peterz53@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Re: V embrace
Michael Figart II wrote:
>You said about Portland<<<<More than 600 people went, only one has
>returned with impressions worth writing about?>>>>>>>>Yup, I noticed the
>same thing, and you know the main reason? In my opinion, and from what
>I've heard from those that attended? Abominable, atrocious floorcraft.
>Those are not my terms. That's what I was told by people who were there.
>Look at the words again...abominable and atrocious. Can you imagine? Can
>you believe that there were leaders sitting just because the floors were
>dangerous? (That's what
>
>I was told!)
>
>
>
> Hi Michael,
I'd like to report that I danced almost every hour of every
milonga(excepting the alternative milongas) at this years Tangofest. I
live in Portland and have been attending our annual events for 7 years.
I've danced at the Denver fall event, San Francisco, Seattle and in
Buenos Aires. In my opinion, the floor craft at Tangofest, this year,
was better than it has ever been. The descriptions 'abominable' and
'atrocious' don't accurately reflect my experience or that of any others
I've spoken with. For reference, I dance only in the outside lane, where
I feel the LOD is the most predictable. This is not to say that one can
just dance away. First, it is necessary to catch the eye of a leader
approaching the point you and your partner want to enter the dance
floor. Nods or hand signals usually indicate an aware leader's
willingness to allow you a space to enter.
Next, many of the venues were set up to create adequate space behind the
tables for people to be able to move around the room without walking on
the dance floor. The result is no, or at least fewer, moving targets to
have to pick up to protect your partner. I recommend this strategy to
all milonga organizers. Round tables are the worst as they tend to place
seating right on the dance floor. (Poor seating, too, as it puts one's
back to the dance floor.)
Maintaining the relationship between the couple in front of you and the
one behind is generally not a problem. Move up when there's room,
leaving a little space for safety; let dancers onto the floor, don't
move backwards. I will also say that I tend to look for dancers whose
floor craft I know (and trust)to enter in front of or behind(ideally
between). I will readily admit that there are some dancers who I dread
to be next to, as the leader seems to demand enough linear space for two
or three couples. I keep a wider margin. More worrisome, still are those
you aren't expecting, i.e. those that come spilling out into any open
space from the next lane in. Lane changers. I can usually spot them, but
I consider that very poor floor craft. There is even the rare leader who
will try to pass you on the right. I can only remember one this year,
though.
Still, the goal, I think, is to be able to craft a dance that is
satisfying even if there is little or no room for forward movement.
In-place clockwise turns, tight calesitas, in place back ochos, foot
play, interesting rock steps, etc are part of the solution. But these
are skills that come with appropiate teaching and a lot of experience. I
know that there were many new dancers(and maybe some for whom only the
crowded conditions were new) at this year event who felt intimidated by
number of dancers on the floor. Although they may have been disappointed
by not feeling comfortable on the pista, I applaud their caution in
recognizing their limitations and hope that the experience of such a
vibrant, cohesive floor full of dancers will inspire them to learn the
skills to be able to join in. Arriving early to the dances often allowed
a more relaxed experience. Fortunately, there were also daily practicas
where, I think, everyone felt comfortable being on the floor. I must
also state that the time I felt most imperiled on the dance floor was
late in the dance when the floor was more open, as the structure of the
line of dance tended to break down and the lane changers seemed to
become more bold.
As was noted earlier in this thread, there are scores of comments on
this year's event at Clay's website. Clay's Dance Studio
<https://www.claysdancestudio.com/>
A couple of final points: Clay makes a determined effort to have
teachers include floor craft as part of their class instruction so as to
continue to improve dancers experiences at the milongas. Also, there
will, inevitably, be a fairly wide spectrum of knowledge and experience
represented on the dance floor at an event like this. Some mishaps,
perhaps, are inevitable(though regrettable, of course). Those who are
used to using a lot of floor space, without needing to consider other
couples, will certainly be the most challenged and, perhaps, the most
likely to comment negatively on their experience.
>Nevertheless; I'll be there in February also to say hello, and see what
>all the fuss is about. If, in my own experience, the floorcraft is as
>bad as what I've been told, I will probably never attend again, but I
>have to see for myself!
>
>
>
I'm glad you're planning to visit in February and hope to meet you
at Valentango and learn what your experience is like.
Best Wishes__________Peter Z
>
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 07:57:45 -0700
From: Larry Gmucs <gmucs@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: V embrace
This extensive discussion brings two literary snippets
to mind:
"Clever people and grocers, they WEIGH everything!"
-- Nikos Kazantzakis, "Zorba the Greek"
"A centipede was happy quite,
Until a frog in fun
Said, "Pray, which leg comes after which?"
This raised her mind to such a pitch,
She lay distracted in the ditch,
Considering how to run."
-- anonymous, or possibly Ogden Nash
I could analyze Tango until I can't move anymore, but
I'd rather dance and please my follower.
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:13:28 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: V embrace
At this point is should be obvious that there is a whole spectrum of
embrace from Symmetry to Assymetry, from almost totally parallel vs
V-frame.
People should be a little more generous in their interpretation of what
people are trying to say.
- Parallel is reasonably descriptive, even if the heads are slightly
offset.
- I'm sure that Michael from DC is not falling on his face;
- I'm sure that Nicole from Miami could find it "possible" to dance
toe-to-toe.
- I'm sure that Sergio from Buffalo can use his hands to indicate
rhythmic steps;
- I'm sure that Oleh from Colorado Springs can lead the same with his
body.
Oleh's posting of pictures indicates quite clearly that some people at
Portland are almost parallel, and others are quite assymetric.
Although, despite the pictures, one person claims they show the
opposite, and despite the smiles, a couple others still claim dancing
with a very symmetric is uncomfortable or impossible. Two of the
pictures show a well-known San Francisco teacher fond of Susana
Miller's style doing both embraces. Another pair shows a well-known
Portland teacher with a great Nuevo reputation doing both embraces.
Historical perspective.
Someone claimed that symmetry was something taught by very, very few
teachers, if not exclusively Susana Miller. I remember seeing a very
symmetric, milonguero style at Almagro in the mid through the late 90s.
I think it more likely that Susana learned from those dancers than
taught them.
In my experience around the US and Buenos Aires (a few years ago), I
have noticed the existence of a range of embrace from very symmetric to
a sharp v-frame. Likewise, there is a range of separation, from
arms-length to front-to-front, and a variety of head placement, from
looking over his right shoulder, to placing her left ear on his chest.
To generalize: In the US, I have noticed a large majority of dancers at
arms-length or assymmetric embraces. I have also noticed that the
minority of relatively symmetric and closer dancers is increasing due
to a greater influence from social-style tango. In Buenos Aires I've
seen all versions, but never arms-length, except on stage.
For example, in LA & San Francisco, the average embrace has always been
much more of a V-frame than the average in Denver. Influential early
teachers in California include Felix Chavez of LA, Nora Dinzel-bacher
(SF) and Orlando Paiva (originally Rosario?), Michael & Luren (LA)...
If we put create a timeline on the introduction of various styles
(please correct me, don't kill me if some of my dates are slightly off.
Also, I know there are the occasional exceptions):
- 1979 - : Tango revival begins in Berlin & Europe: Almost exclusively
Fantasy Tango taught by show dancers (Eduardo & Gloria did a tango
piece during a presentation of Argentine Folk music. Several Berlin
dancers including Brigitte Winkler learned tango several years before
the revival began in Argentina.
- 1984 - : Tango begins to be taught again in Buenos Aires. Mostly
Fantasy Tango
- 1989 - : Tango begins to be taught in the US. Mostly Fantasy Tango
- 1993 - : Social tango (salon/fantasy) begins to be taught in the US
- 1993 - : Explorations of Nuevo ideas begin
- 1996 - : Milonguero tango begins to be taught in the US.
Historically and up to the present, probably 90% of the teachers in the
US (Argentine or N. American) teach an open-embrace,
"fantasy-salon-mix" style, with a V-frame. There are no cities without
a major influence from fantasy/stage tango; there are many cities with
hardly any milonguero influence.
To answer Oleh's original question: If there seems to be an increase in
the assymetry, I think what has changed is that the salon/fantasy
dancers around the US are moving more toward the social version and
dancing closer together than in the 90s. At arms-length any assymmetry
seemed minimal, but as you move closer together the V becomes more
apparent.
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:35:23 -0400
From: John Gleeson <john.gleeson@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Re: V embrace
Excellent summary/conclusion. Thank you, Mr Stermitz.
John G.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] V embrace
> At this point is should be obvious that there is a whole spectrum of
> embrace from Symmetry to Assymetry, from almost totally parallel vs
> V-frame.
>
> People should be a little more generous in their interpretation of what
> people are trying to say.
> - Parallel is reasonably descriptive, even if the heads are slightly
> offset.
> - I'm sure that Michael from DC is not falling on his face;
> - I'm sure that Nicole from Miami could find it "possible" to dance
> toe-to-toe.
> - I'm sure that Sergio from Buffalo can use his hands to indicate
> rhythmic steps;
> - I'm sure that Oleh from Colorado Springs can lead the same with his
> body.
>
> Oleh's posting of pictures indicates quite clearly that some people at
> Portland are almost parallel, and others are quite assymetric.
> Although, despite the pictures, one person claims they show the
> opposite, and despite the smiles, a couple others still claim dancing
> with a very symmetric is uncomfortable or impossible. Two of the
> pictures show a well-known San Francisco teacher fond of Susana
> Miller's style doing both embraces. Another pair shows a well-known
> Portland teacher with a great Nuevo reputation doing both embraces.
>
>
> Historical perspective.
>
> Someone claimed that symmetry was something taught by very, very few
> teachers, if not exclusively Susana Miller. I remember seeing a very
> symmetric, milonguero style at Almagro in the mid through the late 90s.
> I think it more likely that Susana learned from those dancers than
> taught them.
>
> In my experience around the US and Buenos Aires (a few years ago), I
> have noticed the existence of a range of embrace from very symmetric to
> a sharp v-frame. Likewise, there is a range of separation, from
> arms-length to front-to-front, and a variety of head placement, from
> looking over his right shoulder, to placing her left ear on his chest.
>
> To generalize: In the US, I have noticed a large majority of dancers at
> arms-length or assymmetric embraces. I have also noticed that the
> minority of relatively symmetric and closer dancers is increasing due
> to a greater influence from social-style tango. In Buenos Aires I've
> seen all versions, but never arms-length, except on stage.
>
> For example, in LA & San Francisco, the average embrace has always been
> much more of a V-frame than the average in Denver. Influential early
> teachers in California include Felix Chavez of LA, Nora Dinzel-bacher
> (SF) and Orlando Paiva (originally Rosario?), Michael & Luren (LA)...
>
> If we put create a timeline on the introduction of various styles
> (please correct me, don't kill me if some of my dates are slightly off.
> Also, I know there are the occasional exceptions):
> - 1979 - : Tango revival begins in Berlin & Europe: Almost exclusively
> Fantasy Tango taught by show dancers (Eduardo & Gloria did a tango
> piece during a presentation of Argentine Folk music. Several Berlin
> dancers including Brigitte Winkler learned tango several years before
> the revival began in Argentina.
> - 1984 - : Tango begins to be taught again in Buenos Aires. Mostly
> Fantasy Tango
> - 1989 - : Tango begins to be taught in the US. Mostly Fantasy Tango
> - 1993 - : Social tango (salon/fantasy) begins to be taught in the US
> - 1993 - : Explorations of Nuevo ideas begin
> - 1996 - : Milonguero tango begins to be taught in the US.
>
> Historically and up to the present, probably 90% of the teachers in the
> US (Argentine or N. American) teach an open-embrace,
> "fantasy-salon-mix" style, with a V-frame. There are no cities without
> a major influence from fantasy/stage tango; there are many cities with
> hardly any milonguero influence.
>
> To answer Oleh's original question: If there seems to be an increase in
> the assymetry, I think what has changed is that the salon/fantasy
> dancers around the US are moving more toward the social version and
> dancing closer together than in the 90s. At arms-length any assymmetry
> seemed minimal, but as you move closer together the V becomes more
> apparent.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Tom Stermitz
> https://www.tango.org
Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 10:57:06 -0700
From: Ed Loomis <tangobear@POBOX.COM>
Subject: (fwd) Re: V embrace
Thank you, Larry, for this moment of sanity in a wilderness of blather.
On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 07:57:45 -0700, Larry Gmucs <gmucs@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>I could analyze Tango until I can't move anymore, but
>I'd rather dance and please my follower.
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 14:38:48 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: V embrace
Oleh says " I personally have danced with a follower in V embrace only
once and found experience dissatisfying: even though there were no major
problems with lead-follow communication some of the smaller check steps
where virtually impossible to lead. The girl was visiting Boulder from
London. Is V embrace common in London? "
This type of misunderstanding could be avoided if teachers would
properly warn their students. By saying -" Look I start dancing with a
back step but many dancers will start with a side step" or
" I use this type of tango embrace but other dancers will use a
different one"
It seems to me that most of the misconceptions always come from those
that learn to dance "Milonguero style" only. This in turn comes (IMO)
from the way certain teachers promote their style by misleading their
students to believe that the form they teach is "the only way you can
dance", "the only form for social dancing", " the only one where you can
obtain a tango trance", "the only one where you dance for your partner",
" the other forms are just for exhibition and for show off, you end up
kicking everybody around", etc, etc.
The tango embrace in Salon style, as taught and danced by most
milongueros all over the world requires that the man places his right
nipple on the chest bone of the woman. This embrace has a "closed"side
(the right side of the man and the left one of the woman) and an "open"
side (the left side of the man and the right one of the woman). It is
asymmetrical, the position of the bodies with respect to each other is
like a V. This embrace is very elegant and very conducive to leading
any type of tango moves both in open or in close embrace.
It is a minority of dancers, those than "only" dance milonguero style as
taught by Susana Miller and others that dance with a parallel tango
embrace. This second type of embrace causes some limitations with
respect to the moves that can be lead .People that are used to dance
only in V embrace find difficult to adjust to it and to place the head
in the correct position. Some of those in this second group may even
argue that dancing in parallel embrace is an impossible proposition. :)
The tango embrace depends then on the style of tango that you dance.
I use a V frame 90% of the time and a parallel frame when I dance
milonguero or during some walks in Salon close embrace.
I certainly hope that nobody feels offended to learn that there is more
than a form of tango embrace and that parallel embrace has some
limitations with respect to a V embrace as to leading certain moves, on
the other hand, it could be very gratifying as it permits a more
intimate contact of the chests.
