3267  Wedding Bands

Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:54:09 -0600
From: Leonard Kunkel <image10@SWBELL.NET>
Subject: Wedding Bands

I just attended a close embrace seminar and milonga weekend that had
participants from a 4 state area. At the Saturday night milonga there
were 3 women that I was sure early in the evening did not have on
wedding bands. 2 of which did not have rings at all and the 3rd had a
ring that looked more like a fashion or accessory ring. Then late in the
evening all 3 women were sporting diamond wedding bands.

I thought maybe I was seeing or not seeing things as the case may be but
then I got to thinking. Do married women do this in order to get asked
to dance more often. I will admit that the reason I look is that not
knowing the community well I look first to ask women to dance that are
not attached or not married. Especially in a close embrace seminar as
this one was.

Is this becoming a practice that I before was not aware of or was I
truly seeing what I thought I was not seeing?

This was personally disconcerting to me since there is usually always
one lady at a milonga with whom I feel an especially close connection.
And if you will pardon me for saying so a little rise in my pants. And
as at this weekend it happened to be the lady that had on a different
ring on at the beginning. She also was very complimentary on several
occasions telling me what a great leader I was and how much she enjoyed
dancing with me. Before our first dance after apparently watching me
dance with other ladies she positioned herself by coming from her table
across the room and standing by herself next to the table where I was
with seated with several lady friends. The message was clear. She wanted
to dance with me.

Since I am always on the lookout for a permanent performance dance
partner and because of our connection I was thinking perhaps there might
be some potential here only to get my hopes dashed.

And no in hindsight I do not believe that she was coming on to me for
anything other than a dance because the next day in class she introduces
me to her husband while continuing to compliment me on my lead. I
honestly believe she wanted to and enjoyed dancing with me.

If this is a growing practice in seems a little dishonest in getting
guys to ask for a dance but I can also understand that it would work for
women who might be sitting more than dancing because of a ring. On one
hand I would applaud the ladies ingenuity while on the other hand I
could not help feeling a little manipulated.

Has anyone else observed this practice?

May your tango prosper,
Leonardo K.

Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 01:08:29 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Wedding Bands

Leonard,
refer to my "milongeuros and wives" posting for my stand on this.
My goodness, the tango world is getting ever more absurd. Or has it been
this way across the pond all along, of which I have been blissfully unaware?
In Japan, where EVERYBODY goes out without their wife (or husband) all the
time, not only to tango, and frankly, most of them, really prefer to do so?
; )
Leonard, you posting reminds me of the time I went to the Philippines, at
the age of 23. The situation was the opposite then, which is, I arrived in
Manila single and 23 years old. Within three days, I had firmly acquired a
husband and three children, all of whom were waiting for me at home ("sorry,
don't have any picture on me"), and no, I wanted no young men fetching me
bottles of Coca Cola, no declarations of love, esp. not through third
parties ("My friend over there is in love with you ! What is your name?"
etc.), no admirers, escorts, lovers, boyfriends, no, I firmly insisted on
being a married woman with three kids.

And now it has come to this: married women have to keep their rings in their
make up pouch, because otherwise men at the milonga won't dance with them,
especially not close embrace ! And men end up having all kinds of dark
second thoughts regarding their lack of morality, if they have the cheek to
walk up to their tables, hang around, talk to them, God forbid compliment
them on mistakenly dancing with them.

Give us a break, will you?

Astrid

Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 11:22:26 -0800
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Wedding Bands

--- Leonard Kunkel wrote:

> This was personally disconcerting to me since there

is

> usually always one lady at a milonga with whom I

feel

> an especially close connection. And if you will

pardon

> me for saying so a little rise in my pants.

And I take it that you prefer your family name to be
pronounced Sly - mee - ball ?

MH

Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 14:43:13 -0600
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: Wedding Bands

I've seen married women sit and watch their husband dance with other
women all night long, a married woman that that danced all night long
with each other, and married women dance with everyone but their
husbands.

Wedding bands or no, every woman is different and has her own choices
to make in life, including when and who with she dances. If a woman
shows up at a milonga wearing a wedding band, it's weird (and rather
disrespectful in a way) to decide for her who she can dance with.
Unless of course you have a moral objection yourself to dancing the
tango with women in the married state.

--
Christopher L. Everett

Chief Technology Officer www.medbanner.com
MedBanner, Inc. www.physemp.com

Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:33:55 -0500
From: Miguel Canals <elpibemc1961@YAHOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Wedding Bands

I am actually quite surprised by the number of married
women who come to the milongas alone, mostly because
their husbands are non-dancers. I also know of one
such couple where the husband comes to the milonga to
socialize while the wife dances. There are a number
of married men who come to the milongas without their
wives too, although the numbers are fewer.

With tango communities being small in most North
American cities, an (extra merital) affair within the
tango circles will be exposed sooner or later.

When I am dancing with a women, she is all mine. If
it is what I feel like doing, I will seduce her with
all my tricks. It will be great if she returns the
favour. But as soon as the song ends, I will assume
that the entire molonga will be watching, and act
accordingly.

Milguelito.

P.S. Leonard, you may also want to consider getting
your eyes checked ;-).

Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 16:33:19 -0600
From: Leonardo <image10@SWBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Wedding Bands

Sorry if this subject offends anyone. How else can it be politely said.
A man at times can have a physical reaction to dancing close with a
woman that is quite obvious. If a woman does have a physical reaction
I have never been aware of it and it will not be as embarrassing as for
a man. If a man has never been faced with this problem he is either a
lier or low on testosterone or dead. Maybe a saint controlling his mind
only with pure thoughts? Sorry to say I am not.

My personal beliefs are:
Always show the respect:
If a woman is married and I have never danced with her before I first
ask her husband if he would mind me dancing with his wife. I do not
feel it necessary for every dance or if I have had permission before.
If a woman has removed her rings she is telling a lie about herself.
You never know what games she is into. Avoiding games in any type of
relationship is being up front and honest. It amazes me the people on
this list that can stand up for deception and no one has stood up for
honesty and respect.

The other foot:
If I was married I would also expect the first time for a woman to ask
my wife if it would be alright to dance with me. Again it is respecting
the people and their relationship first.

Sex out of milongas:
One person from this list sent me a private email asking if I was some
type of sexual predator at milongas? Again to set my record straight, I
do not believe in sex outside of marriage. For moral, health and
psychological reasons.

Also in my 10 years of tango I have never asked out anyone on a date
that I had met inside the tango community. I treat it the same as a
work environment you don't mess in the company pot. If I ever was to
ask any lady out you could be sure that my intentions would be
honorable and that I placed her high on a probability of the type of
woman I would like to be married to.

Another subject:
When you have a regular tango partner small minds assume that you are
sleeping together and will say so. My one time partner and I of 5 years
longevity and still friends respected each other and never wanted a
failed romantic relationship to cause either of us to lose the tango we
both shared. I only lost this partner by moving away to another part of
the country and she now spends ost of her time in Buenos Aires or New
York.

Leonardo K



On Mar 1, 2005, at 1:22 PM, Marisa Holmes wrote:

> --- Leonard Kunkel wrote:
>
>> This was personally disconcerting to me since there
> is
>> usually always one lady at a milonga with whom I
> feel
>> an especially close connection. And if you will
> pardon
>> me for saying so a little rise in my pants.
>
> And I take it that you prefer your family name to be
> pronounced Sly - mee - ball ?
>
> MH
>
>
>
>

Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 17:17:19 -0600
From: Leonardo <image10@SWBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Wedding Bands

>
> Milguelito said.
>
> P.S. Leonard, you may also want to consider getting
> your eyes checked ;-).
>

That is why I asked the question i the first place. I was wondering
myself if I needed to go back to the eye doctor. I admit that it is
conceivable that I was mistaken. But 3 times. Anythings possible.
Leonardo

>
>

Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 17:58:20 -0800
From: Barbara Garvey <barbara@TANGOBAR-PRODUCTIONS.COM>
Subject: Re: Wedding Bands

Is this conversation weird or what?? Do people male or female actually
manipulate their wedding rings?? Or is it just that Al and I are used to
tango in San Francisco?? Where a number of wives/husbands come to milongas
without their spouses, where sometimes extra-marital affairs occur with or
without spouses present (honi soit qui mal y pense), where there are regular
dance partners (married but not to each other or one single and one married)
who go dancing together habitually leaving one or both spouses at home,
where some spouse-absent dancers appear to be totally faithful to the
homebound partner while dancing with others, etc. In other words, all
possibilities. And in San Francisco that means ALL possibilities. Although I
have often pondered on the scarcity of gay couples at the milongas -- but
that's another tango.

As a person of the tercera edad (that means I'm pretty old) it's a delight
to dance with guys many decades younger. I don't care if they are married or
not. IMHO one of the great attractions of tango is the opportunity to get up
close and personal with lots of persons of another sex with whom one has no
other relationship. Especially when one has been happily married for 46
years. I mean it isn't exactly like a French movie in the Bay Area, but we
go to dance tango, to meet friends, to find new friends, with or without
implications and complications. What is the problem?? Eso es la vida.

In Buenos Aires I am aware that the codigos surrounding milongas in the
center vs. in the outer barrios like Villa Urquiza, result in a baroque set
of rules hard for Norteamericanos to understand. Which may impact on
videotaping etc. And in Argentina it helps to base one's actions on as fine
a comprehension as possible. But, on our native turf, how about live and let
live, mind your own business, etc. If someone doesn't want his wife to dance
with someone else that's his responsibility, benighted as it may seem, to
explain to lo que sea. When attending a milonga it seems only reasonable to
assume that everyone there is available to dance with everyone else, until
advised differently.

Greetings to all from Puerto Vallarta where tango is the talk of the town.
Abrazos,
Barbara

Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 14:35:17 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Wedding Bands

How else can it be politely said.

> A man at times can have a physical reaction to dancing close with a
> woman that is quite obvious.

May I (politely) suggest that you stop wearing those loose fitting trousers
and go for jeans instead?

If a woman does have a physical reaction

> I have never been aware of it

Unlikely, highly unlikely, Leonardo. ; )

>
> My personal beliefs are:
> Always show the respect:
> If a woman is married and I have never danced with her before I first
> ask her husband if he would mind me dancing with his wife.

A woman might find this disrespectful, if she does not regard herself the
property of her husband.

> If a woman has removed her rings she is telling a lie about herself.
> You never know what games she is into.

She might just want to get more dances with people like you.
Or maybe, she is meeting her lover at the milonga?

Avoiding games in any type of

> relationship is being up front and honest.

Then why don't you start, and just take the women for what they are: women?
Not wives, anyone's property, potential adulteresses, manipulators, male
judgements galore?

It amazes me the people on

> this list that can stand up for deception and no one has stood up for
> honesty and respect....I do not believe in sex outside of marriage. For

moral, health and

> psychological reasons....If I ever was to
> ask any lady out you could be sure that my intentions would be
> honorable and that I placed her high on a probability of the type of
> woman I would like to be married to.
>
> Leonardo K
>
> > And I take it that you prefer your family name to be
> > pronounced Sly - mee - ball ?
> >
> > MH
> >

Maybe cyber-tango.com has a reference to a milonga venue at the Vatican, I
am not sure, but for now,

Kinder, gentler tangoes at Family-Values-respecting milongas to some

Astrid

Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 09:33:30 -0000
From: John Ward <johnofbristol@TISCALI.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Wedding Bands

Much as I hate to disagree with Astrid, I would have thought loose trousers
would hide one's disgrace better. Though the handful of birch twigs
recommended in "Tango is my Passion" would probably be better. I haven't
dared try it myself.

John Ward
Bristol, UK

Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:56:12 +0100
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: Wedding Bands and arousal

> Much as I hate to disagree with Astrid, I would have thought
> loose trousers would hide one's disgrace better. Though the

IMHO. It is not a disgrace. It is natural. And unless you are severely
damaged (in the psychological sense) it won't happen just so easily. SHE
will know that she is also "guilty" of being sexy and close (and probably
doing small things - consciously or unconsciously - which aroused you). If a
lady is offended because you get an erection during a dancing, then she is
either immature or you weren't just 'standing' but you were also acting on
your impulses.
This is something men cannot adequately control (and if he does, he is not
enjoying dancing anymore), if a lady is not willing to accept this then she
is fighting against nature. Of course she has the choice to dance with
someone who is not aroused by her...which also implies that the special
'thing' between the two people is less or missing - taking out some or all
of the thing we might call 'passion' from the dance.

Cheers,
Aron





Ecsedy Áron
Aron ECSEDY

Tel: +36 (20) 329 66 99
ICQ# 46386265
https://www.milonga.hu/

Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:02:21 -0800
From: Larry Gmucs <gmucs@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Wedding Bands

My wife and I are dedicated to each other. I enjoy
watching her tango, because I can't see her when we're
dancing. I find it offensive when a man asks me if he
can dance with her. She is perfectly capable of
making her own decision. This is a milonga, not a
meat market. Yes, I care about who she dances with,
but so does she. If I was worried about her dancing
with others, we would not be part of Tango, we'd just
stay home by ourselves.

Larry from Cleveland

--- Leonardo <image10@SWBELL.NET> wrote:

> My personal beliefs are:
> Always show the respect:
> If a woman is married and I have never danced with
> her before I first
> ask her husband if he would mind me dancing with his
> wife.

Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:19:51 -0700
From: Paul Akmajian & Karen Reck <paulnkaren@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Wedding Bands & tango-couples

This post is from Karen:

> (Leondardo writes) ...If a woman has removed her rings she is telling a lie
> about herself. You never know what games she is into....

OK, I was really trying to stay out of this ... but there are many reasons a
woman or man may have removed or not wear their wedding rings to dance:

<> Some married men (& women) never wear a band. This generally implies
nothing (certainly not deviousness) more than personal preference.

<> Some women/men may find various hand clasps more comfortable without a
ring.

<> Some people remove their "fancy" jewelry while traveling to avoid
attracting the attention of potential thieves.

<> Before surgery a few years ago, I had to remove my gold band, which was
inadvertently damaged. We didn't repair it & I haven't worn a ring since.
Paul & I know we are married (23 years this month), and people who know us
in the local & wider dance communities recognize that. If they don't it
doesn't matter, as we are there to dance & that is easily conveyed.

Availability for extra-milonga activities has little to do with dancing
Argentine tango socially. The "branding of a band" is not a some requirement
of honesty in dance or life.

I enjoyed Barbara Garvey's post -- her worldliness & humor is always
welcome. Also Astrid's reply to Leonardo:

>> If a woman is married and I have never danced with her before I first
>> ask her husband if he would mind me dancing with his wife.

> A woman might find this disrespectful, if she does not regard herself the
> property of her husband.

Absolutely! It is nice however for a couple's relationship to be
acknowledged. I find that couples who dance tango, married or not, are
generally aware of this. Also, there are "rules," some implied, some
explicit between couples. (I've been told specific rules/codes are observed
by couples in Buenos Aires milongas; Sergio, Janis or Alberto G. could
better describe these.)

Here are a few "rules" tango-couples I know generally observe:

<> Couples reserve first & last tandas for each other; the first is flexible
(one hasn't changed shoes yet &/or is socializing), the last is sacrosanct
except in extraordinary circumstances.

<> Dance no more than two tandas per milonga with someone not your
spouse/partner -- at least when they are also in attendance & otherwise if
you're wise. ;-)

<> A "con permiso" on occasion, seriously w/ those who are more formal,
humorously with less formal friends. At the very least, greeting both
members of a couple.

Some couples even have a short list of verboten dance partners. Others may
have a tanda rule, such as if their partner is sitting after they've danced
2 tandas, the next tanda always together. Some have an orchestra or song
rule, maybe always Calo/Podesta or always DiSarli's Bahia Blanca together.
And some will only dance with each other or with members of other couples
they know.

If most of this sounds perfectly normal/reasonable to you, I'm guessing that
you & your spouse/partner are a tango-couple.

Paul may dance every tanda, while I'll spend as much time visiting as
dancing. I also attend fewer milongas. This has do with our personalities,
partner preferences & time given to non-tango activities, also to
gender/role balance at events. We may attend a milonga or travel to Buenos
Aires separately. We may or may not wear rings. We will be there to
socialize & dance.

Karen Reck
Albuquerque, New Mexico

Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:30:35 -0500
From: Miguel Canals <elpibemc1961@YAHOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Wedding Bands

--- John Ward wrote:

> Much as I hate to disagree with Astrid, I would have
> thought loose trousers would hide one's disgrace
> better.

Actually, loose trousers paired with tight underware
would probably be the best combination. Although a
percentage of the opposite sex may not want us to
hide things from them. ;-)

Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:36:04 -0800
From: peterwesser <peterwesser@OREGONDUCKS.ORG>
Subject: Re: Wedding Bands

Barbara,
when I dance el tango I feel married to my respective partner -- in bed
with the music -- till la cortina do us part.
Hey, some marriages are better than others.
Cheers,
Peter E.
Portland.




<-----Original Message----->

Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 15:56:26 -0600
From: Leonardo <image10@SWBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: Wedding Bands

Well we did get a lively conversation going on this subject after all.
I wish it could have been a little more in the vein of just exchanging
information without the personal attacks or insinuations. But I
understand some cannot write or act any other way. I do appreciate the
vast majority of people here who are pleasant, friendly and respectful
of others feelings and ideas. Thanks for the supportive private
emails.

ANOTHER POSSIBILITY:
One thing that I did not see anyone mention but did occurred to me
today.
I have known single lady friends to carry a wedding ring in their purse
and use them at strategic times to ward off unwanted advances. It
happens in clubs and I could see this happening late in a milonga where
strangers are present and the lady wants to discourage any potential
and unwanted advances. She just slips on a ring.

Again sorry that some were offended by my first what I thought was a
simple question. That if anyone knew of such a practice of disappearing
and reappearing rings. My curiosity does get me in trouble at times.
Ouch.

My values are my values and no ones else. I do not propose or expect
others to live the same as I choose. The only times I would ever care
is when it affects me personally. So there really was no need for
anyone to get irate.

Have a little peace in your heart ... life is too short,
May your tango prosper,
Leonardo K.

Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 16:43:59 -0800
From: Rick <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Wedding Bands

Hmmmm, I'm wondering if the gals on the list, would be
very comfortable, if a leader they didn't (or did) know well,
was having an erection.... ??? ;o)
.

Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 19:36:36 -0500
From: Rick Jones <rwjones@FROZENGRAVITY.COM>
Subject: Re: Wedding Bands

I enjoy wedding bands if they're playing good music and I can dance,
even if it's not tango. But if the live music isn't that good, I prefer
a just a plain old disc jockey with a record collection to a wedding band.

Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:58:54 -0500
From: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: Wedding Bands

Wedding bands?? I wonder if they are better than marching bands. Why marching bands?? This is the month of March.
Gotcha!!

Michael
Washington, DC
2 weeks to Washington, DC marathon
Thank goodness I'm taking two days off so I can go the
Thursday and Sunday night milongas
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Jones
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Wedding Bands


I enjoy wedding bands if they're playing good music and I can dance,
even if it's not tango. But if the live music isn't that good, I prefer
a just a plain old disc jockey with a record collection to a wedding band.


LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.

Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:19:30 -0600
From: Dr Zarlengo <zarlengo@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Wedding Bands

Ciao,

Wedding Bands - My wife does not wear hers most of the time.

She openly flirts and touches private parts of others and allows the
same to her body. But, she is extremely jealous of me and even talking
to a female, or email a friend that is female. I have a deeper problem.

My solution is to quit this "tango" (or is it tangle) with her all
together ...

I believe wedding bands are a polite way of indicating to an interested
party that you have already made your choice. The dance is fine, beyond
the dance and social friendship, it is verboten.




I once was told -

"I am half Italian and half German.

The Italian side says you react immediately to take of the problem.
The German side says you do it once at it does job."

Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 23:24:17 -0800
From: H Dickinson <hyladlmp@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: wedding bands

Well, I've never spent much time looking at or thinking about
wedding bands when I'm at milongas because I am interested in
dancing, not getting laid, so I consider it irrelevant. I have
to admit that I'd be more likely, as Astrid mentioned, to put on
a fake ring to protect myself from "mashers", than remove a real
one, but I've never so far been driven to that extreme (although
I once caused some confusion in one of my favorite leads by
absentmindedly twiddling a ring I seldom wear back and forth
between hands. He rushed over all worried that I was getting
married and would leave the community forever; since no one knew
my non-existent "fiance", it was assumed to be a non-dancing
man who would lure me away from tango).

As a single gal I haven't found my singularity to be
particularly helpful in getting dances with the better leads.
They are looking to hook up with the good dancers, not the
available bedmates. I prefer to avoid the ones looking for
bedmates (or even for morally clean, delayed gratification
sweethearts to audition as spouses) mainly because since they
are more interested in sex or some other social relationship
than in dancing, they concentrate their efforts on the social
interaction aspect of the tango, rather than the dance aspect.
So the dance suffers. Me, I take the social aspect as a nice
bonus, but it's the dance that has me hooked. And a bad dance
is a sad waste of milonga time, as far as I am concerned.

Leonardo, I am very curious how exactly you handle the
cabeceo--when you meet the eye of a woman you want to dance
with, she is all the way across the room, she nods her head, you
walk toward her, she smiles and stands, ready to enter the floor
with you....and then you just turn away from her, breaking that
intimate eye contact, and ask the guy sitting next to her if it
is ok for you to dance with her?

If a couple is at the milonga, and the woman is looking around
the room trying to make eye contact, she is clearly expecting to
dance, whether she is married or single, ring wearing or not.
If she is not looking around the room to meet eyes, she probably
does not want to dance. If she is there with her husband,
lover, brother, good buddy, he should understand that when she
starts looking around to meet the eyes of other men, she wants
to dance with someone else, and at that point, any agreement to
dance is a social contract occuring between the woman and the
man she has agreed to dance with, and has not a thing to do with
any other person.

Sure, some guys will toss a "Hey, Joe, mind if I take this
lovely lady out for a spin and get her off your hands for a
bit?" as they hand the lady out, usually after ascertaining the
woman's consent. But I can't imagine what would happen if Joe
actually said "No, you can't take her to dance, she has to sit
here with me all night", can you? I mean, other than shocked
silence, and lots of nasty little fights between the couple on
their way home three minutes later. And if a guy came up to a
man I was with to ask for permission to dance with me, before
checking to see if I actually wanted to dance with him, I would
feel insulted and also manipulated--by bringing a third party
into this, now I feel embarrassed and guilty if I say "no thank
you", although I probably would anyway.

I am also wondering how often your polite little question has
merely caused confusion as the woman thinks "Why is he asking my
brother-in-law (or husband's best friend/best friend's
husband/cousin/casual aquaintance who I just met today at the
workshop) for permission to dance with me? My hsband is out
dancing with any cute young thing in dance shoes, why do I need
permission?"

So, if there really are women out there doing funny things about
hiding rings (which might anyway just be due to fiddling from
nervous tension, or perhaps twisting a ring back to front to
hide the diamond from thieves on the way to the milonga and
forgetting to turn it back at first) I'd say, just don't worry
about it. The woman who is right for you will come at the right
time, and until then just dance with the ones you like to dance
with, and trust that you'll know who is free and who is not
before things get too serious.

Hyla

Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 10:17:56 -0600
From: Leonardo <image10@SWBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: wedding bands

(Hyla Thank you for asking)

Hyla said:
Leonardo, I am very curious how exactly you handle the
cabeceo--when you meet the eye of a woman you want to dance
with, she is all the way across the room, she nods her head, you
walk toward her, she smiles and stands, ready to enter the floor
with you....and then you just turn away from her, breaking that
intimate eye contact, and ask the guy sitting next to her if it
is ok for you to dance with her?


When I say that I ask a husband it is usually in the context of them
seated together or standing next to each other. To answer your question
I do not stop the lady and look at her hand and then go on a hunt for
a husband to ask. We just dance. Nothing is usually ever black and
white. You have to go with the event and be flexible. If the event
happened as you put forth. We would dance and then later if we are
talking with husband and wife or even the husband. I would say I
appreciated him letting me borrow his wife to dance with. It was a
nice tango and compliment her to him. If she is a very special follower
I might even congratulate him for being married to such a wonderful
dancer. Men like to hear that they have made a good choice in a mate.

It is only a matter of respect. It is not control or owning anyone as
some here feel so defensive about. It is placing a blessings on their
relationship. It is enjoying the event. It is civility. It is peace and
tranquility. It is keeping the environment a pleasant experience for
all.

May your tango prosper,
Leonardo K.

Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 11:43:47 -0600
From: Leonardo <image10@SWBELL.NET>
Subject: Re: wedding bands

Responding to this subject has helped me understand what sometimes
happens on this site when people disagree.

In life there are Guidelines and then there are Rules (Law).
There is a difference.

On this subject of what I have called respect I stated some of my
guidelines. My preferences. But guidelines are not set in concrete.
They are there to help keep me heading toward a certain goal but I also
have to be flexible and apply them as the circumstance allows and
permits.

Rules on the other hand are inflexible. They rule :-).

One reason I enjoy tango is because for me there are only a very few
rules. Mostly I take in instruction as guidelines. If you don't you may
go crazy. When an instructor uses the words only this, never that I
know that they are seeing their style as an inflexible rule.

Having had the input of 50 instructors counting husbands and wives as
two I often times get a contradiction in instruction. Even instructors
in and from BA will sometimes say the opposite. Everyone teachings what
works for them. In reality it may not work for everyone. I cherry pick
what I use in my tango as I encourage my students to do. I teach almost
no rules but teach a lot of guidelines. I encourage creativity.

Tango is improvisational. Too often I see people being adamant about a
certain aspect of tango. For someone may say a certain type of music is
a rule for another person the type of music may only be a guideline.
Most of the arguments here on TANGO-L center around one person seeing
something as a rule and another only as a guideline. A rule heard here:
It is not tango if alternative music is played. It is not tango if it
is not close embrace. You can make a hundred examples just from the
conversations here.

Tango was born out of improvisation and flexibility. Men working out
movements with other men. No Rules. Now often dancers want to make a
rule out of a guideline. A rule does provide a certain amount of
security. If you know to do something a certain way every time it makes
for a warm fuzzy place that no one can change. With a rule all must
agree or at least abide by it. With a guideline you are left to apply
it as it helps while providing room for adventure. I live my life as an
adventure and every tango is a new adventure.

It seems to me that tango loses some of its original intent if we lose
its flexibility. Should this statement be a rule or a guideline. I
think that being flexible should be a rule. :-)

May your tango prosper,
Leonardo K.

Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2005 12:09:36 -0800
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Wedding Bands

--- Rick <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM> wrote:

> Hmmmm, I'm wondering if the gals on the list, would
> be very comfortable, if a leader they didn't (or

did)

> know well, was having an erection.... ??? ;o)

Well, I do not personally tend to dance close enough
to know without looking, but a lady of my acquaintance
who does has remarked that she has learned much more
about men's genitalia than she cared to know. So
anyone who thinks that it will be a great compliment
might re-think.

By the same reckoning, there is a lady in our
community who is reported to make noises closely
related to those one associates with sex while
dancing. (Not when she is dancing with me, so I only
have the info secondhand.) At least two men of my
acquaintance have stopped inviting her because they
found her behavior embarrassing.

Overtly sexual behavior on the floor seems to me like
an extreme way to explore whether you and another
person are a good match. What you do with your spouse
or partner is your own business as long as it is
silent and does not disturb the ronda.

Marisa