3133 Where do we start teaching of dance?
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:08:38 -0500
From: Miamidances@AOL.COM
Subject: Where do we start teaching of dance?
My question comes from one of Steve Brownb s postings.
>As Tom, Oleh, I and others have pointed out on several >occasions, teaching beginning leaders step patterns (such as >the 8-count basic) runs the risk of producing numerous >problems with musicality and navigation that render the >beginning leader less capable of dancing than when they first >walked in the door.
With that being said, what would be the first thing that you would teach if you were going to teach Swing, Cha Cha, Rumba or any other dance besides Tango, where or how would you start?
I'm just curious.
Randy
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:05:18 -0500
From: ed doyle <doyleed@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Where do we start teaching of dance?
On Mon, 2005-01-17 at 21:08, Miamidances@AOL.COM wrote:
> My question comes from one of Steve Brownb s postings.
>
> >As Tom, Oleh, I and others have pointed out on several >occasions, teaching beginning leaders step patterns (such as >the 8-count basic) runs the risk of producing numerous >problems with musicality and navigation that render the >beginning leader less capable of dancing than when they first >walked in the door.
>
> With that being said, what would be the first thing that you would teach if you were going to teach Swing, Cha Cha, Rumba or any other dance besides Tango, where or how would you start?
>
> I'm just curious.
>
> Randy
Hi All,
I am not a teacher, so perhaps I shouldn't even attempt to answer this,
but I have half a dozen or more years of ballroom dancing under my belt
and am just starting to learn tango and I find the too very very very
.... different. With ballroom dancing, I learn a pattern, often I can
also learn the lady's part of the same pattern, then a lady and I do the
pattern together. In all cases, I lead the step, but in some cases, the
lady must also know the pattern even if I lead it well, for her to do
it. West Coast Swing has many such examples. In tango, where I am just
a beginner the new thing for me is for two people to become one. That
is, while I have been walking for many years, I have not been walking
with another person attached to me, or even touching me. In fact, I
probably would walk differently if there was another person extremely
close to me. Tango is wonderful. I love it, but I have so so much to
learn. To hold my partner in a way that we become one and move together
with the music almost defies describing in words. I learned the 8 count
basic on my first tango lesson, and many other steps since then. I can
do most by myself, but as soon as I have a partner and music and there
are other people on the floor, everything changes - the pattern become
almost impossible to do (remember I am a very very beginner and that is
the prospective I am trying to give for what it is worth). Recently I
have been reading about just walking (in close embrace) and maybe just
doing rocking steps, or changing weight from left to right foot. As
simple as this sounds, it is quite pleasurable and satisfying (with a
partner), compared to trying to avoid bumping into anyone, listening to
the music, keeping my balance, my axis, my connection, and trying to
remember which count of the eight count basic I am on and is the lady
crossed or not. In other words, what I am trying to say, and maybe
doing a poor job of it, is that in tango, starting out leaning patterns
or sequences of steps seems to me to hold me back when I get out on the
dance floor, where as just the opposite is true in ballroom dancing.
The more patterns one knows, the more choices one has to lead in
different situations. Again, in some cases, the lady must also know the
pattern, where in other cases, a good leader (in ballroom dancing) can
more or less put the lady in the correct position even if she has never
seen the pattern before - this all depends on the dance, the lady, and
the leader. In tango - at least at the moment - my feeling is the lead
must know what he is doing, be sensitive, be able to make a connection,
hear the music, and move naturally. At this stage of my learning, if I
try to do much more (like learn fancy patterns) I think I just go into
overload, and probably am not much fun for the follower. Please don't
get me wrong - I really do wish I could do more and am very envious of
those of you that can and do many fancy.
Well, I guess I used a lot of words to say - I think in ballroom,
learning patterns is fine, but for tango, I think patterns should not be
taught until the student can walk, maintain a connection, move with the
music, and not harm (step on) his partner or anyone else.
A tango beginners opinion.
Regards
Ed
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:35:07 -0800
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Where do we start teaching of dance?
--- Miamidances@AOL.COM wrote:
> Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 21:08:38 -0500
> From: Miamidances@AOL.COM
> Subject: [TANGO-L] Where do we start teaching of
> dance?
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
My question comes from one of Steve Brown's postings.
>As Tom, Oleh, I and others have pointed out on
several occasions, teaching beginning leaders step
patterns (such as the 8-count basic) runs the risk of
producing numerous problems with musicality and
navigation that render the beginning leader less
capable of dancing than when they first walked in the
door.
With that being said, what would be the first thing
that you would teach if you were going to teach Swing,
Cha Cha, Rumba or any other dance besides Tango, where
or how would you start?
I'm just curious.
Randy
Well Randy,
I'd have to say that for Swing, Cha Cha, Rumba and
many other dances besides Tango, I'd start beginners
with moving to the beat. Then I'd introduce the idea
of communicating with your partner, and then (to make
your point) I'd show them step patterns.
Swing, Cha Cha, and Rumba are much more similar to
each other, than they are to Argentine Tango. The
differences are legion, but just two are enough to
explain why the step pattern method is inadequate for
teaching AT. Those differences are:
1. the music, and
2. the level of communication that takes places
between the dancers.
One of the musicologists "here" can probably better
explain the differences between the music, but for
this discussion, it is sufficient to say that ballroom
music is well suited to step patterns (Can you say
"strict tempo"?) and tango music is not. Imagine the
how disconcerting it would be to pause at the cross on
the 5th count of the dreaded 8 count basic at a time
when the music is driving you forward.
To communicate in Swing, Cha Cha, and Rumba, the
leader uses an arbitrary predetermined signal to
indicate the next memorized pattern to be executed. If
both partners know the pattern and the signal, all
goes well. It is the same level of communication that
takes place between a trained dog and the human who
tells him to sit, roll over, etc.
Argentine Tango requires more complex communication
between the partners, because memorized patterns
rarely fit the music, the available space, or your
partner's mood. The dancers create their choreography
in the moment, to suit the music, the space, and their
partners. The leader has to communicate this newly
invented choreography to his partner. Then, because
this is a new and original idea, she has to reflect it
back to him, to confirm that she understood it. And,
for this new thing to work, he has to listen to her;
because he can't execute the choreography that he
intended to communicate. He has to execute the
choreography that she reflects back to him. (This
dance is best when the follower is skilled enough to
put her own juice into the reflection.)
One problem with the step pattern method of teaching
is that it teaches both partners to anticipate. Worse,
it teaches the leader to not listen to the follower.
This is not to say that you can teach tango without
teaching patterns. Every teacher I have ever studied
under has taught me step patterns. But the steps are
incidental to the dance. Anyone can show steps. But if
you want to teach this dance, you have to teach the
partners how to communicate.
By the way, the only things wrong with the 8 count
basic are that it is called "the basic", and it
incorporates a backward step against the line of
dance. Make the back step about 0-2" long, or turn it
to the line of dance, and this thing works fine. Just
change the name so the poor newbies aren't stuck doing
it over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over...
Sean
=====
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:19:07 -0500
From: "Fossey, Mary Ellen" <mfossey@BU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Where do we start teaching of dance?
Beautifully said. I don't teach patterns early, for the reasons you
detail. And later, when I start teaching patterns, I use them for the
purpose of perfecting techniques of connection, musicality, floorcraft.
Tango is a conversation, not a choreography.
Mary Ellen Fossey
Time to Tango
Boston
Hi All,
I am not a teacher, so perhaps I shouldn't even attempt to answer this,
but I have half a dozen or more years of ballroom dancing under my belt
and am just starting to learn tango and I find the too very very very
.... different. With ballroom dancing, I learn a pattern, often I can
also learn the lady's part of the same pattern, then a lady and I do the
pattern together. In all cases, I lead the step, but in some cases, the
lady must also know the pattern even if I lead it well, for her to do
it. West Coast Swing has many such examples. In tango, where I am just
a beginner the new thing for me is for two people to become one. That
is, while I have been walking for many years, I have not been walking
with another person attached to me, or even touching me. In fact, I
probably would walk differently if there was another person extremely
close to me. Tango is wonderful. I love it, but I have so so much to
learn. To hold my partner in a way that we become one and move together
with the music almost defies describing in words. I learned the 8 count
basic on my first tango lesson, and many other steps since then. I can
do most by myself, but as soon as I have a partner and music and there
are other people on the floor, everything changes - the pattern become
almost impossible to do (remember I am a very very beginner and that is
the prospective I am trying to give for what it is worth). Recently I
have been reading about just walking (in close embrace) and maybe just
doing rocking steps, or changing weight from left to right foot. As
simple as this sounds, it is quite pleasurable and satisfying (with a
partner), compared to trying to avoid bumping into anyone, listening to
the music, keeping my balance, my axis, my connection, and trying to
remember which count of the eight count basic I am on and is the lady
crossed or not. In other words, what I am trying to say, and maybe
doing a poor job of it, is that in tango, starting out leaning patterns
or sequences of steps seems to me to hold me back when I get out on the
dance floor, where as just the opposite is true in ballroom dancing.
The more patterns one knows, the more choices one has to lead in
different situations. Again, in some cases, the lady must also know the
pattern, where in other cases, a good leader (in ballroom dancing) can
more or less put the lady in the correct position even if she has never
seen the pattern before - this all depends on the dance, the lady, and
the leader. In tango - at least at the moment - my feeling is the lead
must know what he is doing, be sensitive, be able to make a connection,
hear the music, and move naturally. At this stage of my learning, if I
try to do much more (like learn fancy patterns) I think I just go into
overload, and probably am not much fun for the follower. Please don't
get me wrong - I really do wish I could do more and am very envious of
those of you that can and do many fancy.
Well, I guess I used a lot of words to say - I think in ballroom,
learning patterns is fine, but for tango, I think patterns should not be
taught until the student can walk, maintain a connection, move with the
music, and not harm (step on) his partner or anyone else.
A tango beginners opinion.
Regards
Ed
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 00:39:04 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Where do we start teaching of dance?
$B#E (Bd wrote:
At this stage of my learning, if I
> try to do much more (like learn fancy patterns) I think I just go into
> overload, and probably am not much fun for the follower. Please don't
> get me wrong - I really do wish I could do more and am very envious of
> those of you that can and do many fancy.
> Well, I guess I used a lot of words to say - I think in ballroom,
> learning patterns is fine, but for tango, I think patterns should not be
> taught until the student can walk, maintain a connection, move with the
> music, and not harm (step on) his partner or anyone else.
> A tango beginners opinion.
I think, learning patterns may be helpful to a certain extent, but what
helped me more was to train how the steps can be linked to each other. For
exemple, when I started learning tango, I never knew about the 8 count basic
until I went to a milonga for the first time, and some dancer there taught
me that there is a "boring resolution"(Tom's coinage, I believe) after the
cross. My teacher had only taught me the salida up to "number 5" (he never
told me that the steps had numbers either, I learned that much later in a
workshop with stage dancers), and taught me during my first lessons that I
can walk forward (or skip that), side, close/back, back and cross. And that
from that cross anything is possible. I can move into a front ocho, but I
could also go into any other possible direction, depending on where the man
leads me, since from the cross it is possible to start from either foot, go
backward, forward, pivot on either foot, or open to the side. Or, as Gavito
once taught me some years later, I can stop there and start rubbing up
against the man' chest like a cobra rising, and start playing with my feet
on the floor (not easy at all, and takes a very good, sensitive leader, who
also listens to the woman's movements carefully while he dances, and does
not loose his balance when she starts pushing back. But if it works, a very,
very sexy thing to do. I am sure you have seen it all when he danced with
Marcela).
In between practising to follow the lead, I had to practise many, many
repetitions of the walk, the ochos, the giros, until I could hold my balance
on all of these steps.
One day, after a few months, my teacher told me in private:"The owner of
this studio says, learning to dance tango properly takes three years.
Actually I can teach a girl to dance in four lessons, but I have to teach
you this way..."
I am grateful that he did. I am sure, if I had learned to tango in those
four lessons, I would be a different dancer today. I like what I have become
with the help of these basics he taught me, even if some more easy going
people think that I am kind of "fussy" about details of dance technique. ; )
Astrid
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:12:45 +0100
From: Alexis Cousein <al@BRUSSELS.SGI.COM>
Subject: Re: Where do we start teaching of dance?
astrid wrote:
>
> I think, learning patterns may be helpful to a certain extent,
I'd have to add that that is also the way we learn natural languages,
so why not tango?
I don't agree we shouldn't be teaching patterns like the D8CB to
beginners. After all, children learn language by listening to
*complete sentences* - we don't start by reciting them words from
a dictionary. And the DC8B, though much reviled, is the
swiss army knife of patterns, as you can always veer off into
something you thought of *somewhere* in that pattern.
Of course, I also agree that those patterns need to be broken
up and reconstructed fairly soon and often, and that a *really*
good teacher will always teach new "patterns" that go *against*
the grain of the "natural" flow that the students may come
to expect from earlier patterns, rather than "more of the same"
but more complicated - just to keep them on their toes, and to
teach people how all the different patterns can "breathe"
differently.
And (s)he'll weave the vocabulary that (s)he's taught into
new patterns, just to highlight how these patterns break
into recombinable elements...
In this sense, sticking to the same pattern too often is indeed
counter-productive. After all, I doubt parents teach their
children by repeating the same sentence over and over
again either...
--
Alexis Cousein Senior Systems Engineer
alexis@sgi.com SGI Brussels
If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals.
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:37:14 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Where do we start teaching of dance?
Randy Pittman wrote:
>[W]hat would you teach if you were starting with swing, cha cha, rumba
>or any other dance besides tango, where or how would you start?
I am not a swing dancer, but I have been to a few swing dance classes. One
of the most memorable classes was a beginning Lindy Hop class that Steven
Mitchell taught to several hundred people -- many of whom had no
experience whatsover with swing dancing. He began with rhythmic movement
and gradually transformed the movement into swing dancing.
I might also add that Randy's question is a bit misleading because
although many people use the 8-count basic to teach Argentine tango, it is
not accepted by everyone as the one and only basic step of tango from
which all tango dancing springs. See Daniel Trenner's essay on the
"basic" step in Argentine tango.
https://www.danieltrenner.com/daniel/ar_basic.html
Among other things, Daniel writes:
"It would be inaccurate to translate "Salida" as Basic Step. ... [S]alida
seems to have been used by the milongueros more to signify the way out
onto the dance floor. ... The amount of variation on such a 'basic' theme
[the salida] is remarkable. ...
The eight step tango basic in parallel feet, as danced almost universally
in the world outside Buenos Aires was never taught as a salida among the
milongueros and is more recently derided by them as 'el basico academico'
(the academic basic). This basic step seems to have been created by the
"tango for export" community ... The skeleton of the dance is a walk of
the follower that is designed by the leader. ... "
All this said, I must confess to have first learned the 8-count basic, and
I have survived as a tango dancer.
--Steve (de Tejas)
