2416 Women saying 'No'/Lame excuses
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 18:55:56 +0100
From: Hector <hector.ariza@NTLWORLD.COM>
Subject: Women saying 'No'/Lame excuses
Something related to the current thread is what a man does after a woman tells him 'No' to a dance, in one way or another. Usual lame excuses:
1. I'm resting.
2. I don't feel very well.
3. Next week.
4. I'll be right back.
5. I'm going to dance with someone else.
While these normally happens when the poor guy is still learning the ropes (say, anything up to three years), it does leave an imprint in =
memory. Personally, I respect the reasons why any woman may have said 'no' to me, but I don't ask her again. She's SO over with me. As my =
skills improve, then the tables are turned. Sweet vengance.
A wonder which other lame excuses the men in this list have had to swallow...
H.
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 12:10:05 -0700
From: margaret lentell <maggie97210@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Fw: [TANGO-L] Women saying 'No'/Lame excuses
Some thoughts on the list of "Usual lame excuses"
The reasons for saying no to an invitation to dance, whether they come from
men or women are not always lame excuses!
Sometimes:
-I am resting, sometimes I just need a break (too hot, too sweaty, sore
feet, etc.) and would love to dance a little later.
-Sometimes I am done for the night, and hope that I will get to dance with
the person on another night.
-Sometimes I do have to attend to something else and will be right back.
-Sometimes I have already promised the next set to another person.
I try to indicate either by tone of voice, a smile, or a direct statement
that I am not making a lame excuse, and that I am interested in dancing with
the person who has asked me, at a future time. May be there is another way?
Any ideas??????
Almost all of at one time or another has been rejected by someone we have
been interested in. If we don't put our egos back out on the line and try
again, life not be worth living!
Margaret (Portland, Oregon)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 19:40:58 GMT
From: michael <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Women saying 'No'/Lame excuses
I remember so well dancing with beginners when I was a beginner. The better leaders wouldn't dance with them. I remember one women very well. I danced with her (both of us were terrible). She got better (which is the natural course of progression) before I did. Then, when the better leaders noticed her, they danced with her and she stopped dancing with me.
I felt EXACTLY the same way as Hector when he wrote about the tables being turned. I described this to my teacher, after being turned down by a different woman. He said "First, you have to learn how to lose graciously. Then, you have to learn how to win graciously." In other words, I shouldn't hold a grudge if the opportunity ever arose to dance with a woman who snubbed me.
As for the lame excuses, I consider all excuses legitimate, unless the woman decides to dance with somebody else after telling me "she's tired" or something else. Those are the women I won't ask again. My teacher told me not to waste my energy seeking vengeance because I might never get the opportunity to get it.
People dance with certain people for certain reasons, e.g. comfortable with their skill level, dancing with a professional who has "star" qualities makes them think themselves are "stars", etc. I try to recognize and stay away from people who bring their personal insecurities onto the dance floor. I want to share a dance, not look like a prop.
Michael
Washington, DC
-- Hector <hector.ariza@NTLWORLD.COM> wrote:
Usual lame excuses:
1. I'm resting.
2. I don't feel very well.
3. Next week.
4. I'll be right back.
5. I'm going to dance with someone else.
I respect the reasons why any woman may have said 'no' to me, but I don't ask her again. She's SO over with me. As my skills improve, then the tables are turned. Sweet vengeance.
H.
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 22:06:45 +0100
From: Hector <hector.ariza@NTLWORLD.COM>
Subject: Women saying 'No'/Lame excuses
> Some thoughts on the list of "Usual lame excuses"
>
> The reasons for saying no to an invitation to dance, whether they come
from
> men or women are not always lame excuses!
>
> Sometimes:
> -I am resting, sometimes I just need a break (too hot, too sweaty, sore
> feet, etc.) and would love to dance a little later.
In my opinion, the dancer who is tired should remove him/herself from the
perimeter of the dance floor towards the background.
The layout of the milonga should allow this. However, if the woman indicates
that she would like to dance later, it is
likely that I won't ask her on that milonga, but I will on another one.
> -Sometimes I am done for the night, and hope that I will get to dance
with
> the person on another night.
Same as above, recessing to the background.
> -Sometimes I do have to attend to something else and will be right back.
This happened to me once and then she was dancing 5 minutes later with one
of the cast of a famous tango show. I
can differentiate between a genuine reason and a snub, we all can, can't we?
> -Sometimes I have already promised the next set to another person.
That's okay and quite honest too, but the thing to do is what you say next:
>
> I try to indicate either by tone of voice, a smile, or a direct statement
> that I am not making a lame excuse, and that I am interested in dancing
with
> the person who has asked me, at a future time. May be there is another
way?
> Any ideas??????
I can understand that some men may be so unpleasant to dance with that an
excuse is due. But I'm not talking
about this, but about snubs. At least in my head there is a difference.
>
> Almost all of at one time or another has been rejected by someone we have
> been interested in. If we don't put our egos back out on the line and try
> again, life not be worth living!
Regarding egos: when I was beginning I asked a woman with a level similar to
mine and she said no. I kept practicing and time later, I guess that
feeling conciliatory, asked again. She said no again. I swore to myself
never to ask this one again. Kept practicing and got
to a point in which followers (modestly said) often times compliment me. For
a reason I cannot fathom myself, I ask her again
and she said no for a third time! I realised she was playing a mind game,
nothing to do with my ego --or tango for that matter.
H.
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2004 17:43:15 EDT
From: LGMoseley@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Fw: [TANGO-L] Women saying 'No'/Lame excuses
Surely the essence of being a gentleman or a lady is to be polite to people
even when they are not polite to you.
And yes - my patience has been stretched at times, but at a Milonga it has
not yet broken !! No doubt, it will happen at some future time.
Laurie
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 11:07:04 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Women saying 'No'/Lame excuses
Hector wrote:
what a man does after a woman tells him 'No' to a dance, in one way or
another. Usual lame excuses:
1. I'm resting.
2. I don't feel very well.
3. Next week.
4. I'll be right back.
5. I'm going to dance with someone else.
Personally, I respect the reasons why any woman may have said 'no' to me,
but I don't ask her again. She's SO over with me.
----For a reason I cannot fathom myself, I ask her again
and she said no for a third time! I realised she was playing a mind game,
nothing to do with my ego --or tango for that matter.
Well, Hector, maybe you would like to tell us, what would be the legitimate
thing to say for the woman to say when she turns you down?
Naturally, "I'm resting", "I don't feel well" is sometimes all too
transparent as an excuse. She may be a little clumsy and have limited
imagination, but she is basically trying to be polite and not to hurt you.
Would you rather, she told you the truth, instead of a "lame excuse"?
Something like:"No thanks, you are too ugly/too old/too fat/you smell/your
shirt is wet/you are a poor dancer"?
The lady who turned you down three times was not playing a mind game, she
simply did not want to dance with you. Not related to your tango skills, she
simply did not want to be embraced by you, and led in a dance. So?
I think, rather than plotting revenge, the lesson to be learned from this is
how to take rejection, in general. Because someone does not want to dance
with you, does that mean, you are useless as a person, undesirable, inferior
etcetc? Remember, they often do not even know you !
To keep your sanity in tango, it is better to not take these things too
personally. Naturally, most would prefer that everyone in the room is
longing to dance with them, but the fact is, that usually it is only those
that know you personally, that have been in your tango class, that have
danced with you before, while some others who do ask you to dance, have
reasons to do so, that may not entirely agree with you either.
I am always amazed when I read about men planning revenge for rejection,
carrying grudges for months, and carrying out their imagined "revenge"
months later, all because some woman said no to a dance. Is this really
worth all that energy? What are they trying to prove to her and to
themselves? Basically, someone rejecting a dance proves not much at all
concerning you, and you should not allow such arbitrary events to run your
life. Who knows, maybe she really WAS not feeling well.
On another note, I think, women observe and take notice when a man is using
tango to prove someting and inflate his male ego. Tango is giving him a
chance to show off, to play the great ravisher, he imagines himself
surrounded by a potential harem...And some women would simply prefer someone
who quietly opens up and melts, in the dance.
Astrid
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 10:27:01 +0200
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron.ecsedy@OM.HU>
Subject: Re: Women saying 'No'/Lame excuses
> Well, Hector, maybe you would like to tell us, what would be
> the legitimate thing to say for the woman to say when she
> turns you down? Naturally, "I'm resting", "I don't feel
Like: "Sorry, I don't want to dance right now." :) No explanations are necessary.
Same problem with women (Yes, I DO generalize, Astrid, but you'll see why) rejecting dates: they just can't say I DON'T WANT TO DATE YOU. =
Maybe this is due to the fact that many women tend change their minds from time to time to the point that men doesn't even hear the "NO!". It =
is obvious: if men learned that a girl will say "no" even if she would be willing, or if she may be persuaded to say yes, than why would he =
listen? However, when we are talking about dates it is a more personal thing, than talking about a dance. So, Ladies, why wouldn't you just =
drop the bad habit of making up objective-looking excuses and say that you don't want to dance.
When I ask women about this "lame excuse" thing, they usually say that they don't want to hurt the guy (I believe women just try to aviod open =
conflict). Also, they don't want to appear stuck up. (they usually are, by definition - it is very rare at a milonga that a guy has hygencial =
problems or alike)
Of course this _appears_ legitimate. However, men will prefer 1s or 0s. If you say that you don't want "him", then he has the choice: accept it, =
or declare war. It is his choice. If he WAS rejected, he IS entitled to feel offended at least AS MUCH as You, Ladies, are entitled to rejecting =
him. By using this "lame excuse" you push the whole thing underground: this will not make him feel any better, only he will not be able to put =
his finger on the "offense". Men are fair in this: if he cannot "prove" (to himself) that you knowingly hurt him he won't get "aggressive".
So who is the chauvinist then?
> Something like:"No thanks, you are too ugly/too old/too
> fat/you smell/your shirt is wet/you are a poor dancer"? The
Actually, any woman could TRANSLATE such a lame rejection as "you are too lame/ugly etc." if I (as a man) would say it...
Only males tend to take these excuses face value...
> game, she simply did not want to dance with you. Not related
> to your tango skills, she simply did not want to be embraced
> by you, and led in a dance. So? I think, rather than
So then it is not JUST about dancing isn't it?
(It is quite usual on this list, that people separate "pure dancing" from any nasty sexual context. Personally, I think that's pure =
bullsh*t.)
> read about men planning revenge for rejection, carrying
> grudges for months, and carrying out their imagined
> "revenge" months later, all because some woman said no to a
> dance. Is this really worth all that energy? What are they
> trying to prove to her and to themselves? Basically, someone
IMO This is pretty normal. Sort of "alpha male" behaviour (or at least this is that creates the alpha male).
(consider that this sort of reactions (emotional needs) evolved before civilised society)
If you make the rejecting female uncomfortable somehow, it could
- make her leave his "area" and stop causing emotional distress by her simple presence
- show other females what waits them if they reject him
- show other males that he is not to be triffled with.
Of course this is not nice, but can be effective: If you are really good at focusing your punishment to this person, the lady will stop attending =
the milonga, the others will actually blame her and the guys will consider you strong character - no matter how unlikely it sounds. Women =
rarely tolerate constant conflicts in a leisure environment.
Now you may start throwing the stones.
> rejecting a dance proves not much at all concerning you, and
> you should not allow such arbitrary events to run your life.
> Who knows, maybe she really WAS not feeling well. On another
> note, I think, women observe and take notice when a man is
> using tango to prove someting and inflate his male ego.
> Tango is giving him a chance to show off, to play the great
> ravisher, he imagines himself surrounded by a potential
> harem...And some women would simply prefer someone who
> quietly opens up and melts, in the dance.
Sure...
Gentlemen! Don't think that "ego boosting" and "melting" does not combine. Actually it is quite an explosive mixture. Seduction, =
extrovertedness and domination are not incompatible. At all...
Cheers,
Aron
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 12:55:33 -0500
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: Women saying 'No'/Lame excuses
I don't think "respect" is the correct word here at all.
I believe that tango is such a close dance, you can't hide anything.
Including your emotions, your mood, or your propensity for acting out in
childish ways.
Expressing "non" visible revenge may drive anger inward causing depression
and guilt. If we do not become depressed then we will surely harbor
bitterness, hate, ill will and jealousy-all of which are not very attractive
to be close to. No matter how good your skills are.
Lois
> Personally, I respect the reasons
> why any woman may have said 'no' to me, but I don't ask her
> again. She's SO over with me. As my skills improve, then the
> tables are turned. Sweet vengance.
>
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 13:47:56 -0700
From: Razor Girl <dilettante666@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Women saying 'No'/Lame excuses
Hi,
In my opinion it is fairly easy to avoid all of this
sort of thing by not opening yourself up to it in the
first place.
It's pretty easy to make yourself unavailabe with your
body language so that the man doesn't even approach
you and ask you to dance.
If you notice him walking over to you anyway, you can
always close your eyes and enjoy engrosing yourself in
the music.
To me it is very important which music I dance to with
a guy. Some music I prefer not to dance. Some music
I favor particular men I know. Other music is okay to
experiment with people I do not know. I would say
that two of my basic needs as a dancer are good music
and good presence from my partner (a good embrace).
I have had experiences at milongas when the music is
terrible and I don't want to dance at all. Even with
my favorite dancers. Sometimes there will be someone
with whom I would like to dance and we will sit down
together waiting for the right music.
Choosing who to dance with is a very personal thing.
Each partner has their own choice. Just because you
choose to decline a dance with someone may not
necessarily mean that you do not like them or you do
not wish to dance with them another time. It is silly
to think so unless someone has specifically done
something or said something to you to make you feel
that way. So it's not good to take rejection so
personally. You just move on and find the person that
will click with you to that music.
Recently, when we were in Buenos Aires my girlfriend
just kept raving about this man that she was dancing
with. "You have to dance with him, you would love
him" she kept saying. So finally one night I caught
him eye. We danced and when I returned to the table
she asked me how I liked him. I said it was okay but
not the same connection she described she had had with
him. Then a few nights later I danced with him again
to Calo. Ah! That was the music we connected to. He
said to me "now I know who to find when they play
Calo" and I agreed completely. I went back to my
friend and told her I had experienced the part of him
that she described, but I said for us it had to be
Calo.
I have many different experiences like that. I think
it is important in this discussion not to lose sight
of the very fundamental significance of the music.
Regards,
Rose
Portland, OR
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 23:25:35 +0200
From: "Christian Lüthen" <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
Subject: Re: Women saying 'No'/Lame excuses
[Rose's words]
Listen to what Rose says ...
... it's so true!
Also what she said the other night!
She's wise! And she behaved wisely in Buenos Aires! ;-)
Abrazos tangueros!
Christian
--
just my personal 50th of an Euro
christian.luethen@gmx.net
How inappropriate to call this planet earth ...
... as clearly it is ocean!
"Sie haben neue Mails!" - Die GMX Toolbar informiert Sie beim Surfen!
Jetzt aktivieren unter https://www.gmx.net/info
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 23:22:30 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Women saying 'No'/Lame excuses
I take womens' answers to my request to dance at face value. At least the
first time around ;-) If I ask soemone to dance and they just say no thank
you, I don't ask them again. If they say "not this time", or "I'm resting"
or some other reason that would not preclude another chance, I'll ask them
again later. Otherwise, I'll not ask again. People have many reasons to
either accept or reject an invitation to dance. I don't want to waste my
time examining their reasons. If it seems to me that they don't want to
dance with me, I'll not bother them again. I think that's the best for
everybody.
Likewise, when I am asked to dance by women, I like to have the option to
decline or accept as I see fit. There are many times that I'd just as soon
not dance with anybody because the music is just not inspiring. Other times
I just don't want to dance a particularly inspiring dance with just anybody.
There is one thing that I don't particularly llike and that is to be
captured by some woman who then takes me and hands me to yet another woman
to dance with... That's not a good feeling. Sometimes it's a wonderful
dancer, but more often it's a dancer who can't get partners any other way.
When this happens it's bad for everybody since I don't enjoy the dance and
I'm sure that neither does this particular person.
Personally, I enjoy best dancing with women who are good followers. I don't
care if they are not the fanciest dancers around or if they are not the most
beautiful, the youngest, or whatever. The best way for people of both
genders to get a lot of dancing is to be good dancers themselves. Practice
your dancing, go to milongas and most of all, dance with the music.
Happy partners to all,
Manuel
Viisit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 15:33:03 -0400
From: "Fossey, Mary Ellen" <mfossey@BU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Women saying 'No'/Lame excuses
This dance emphasizes body language. Seems like a great number of perceived or imagined grievances would be avoided if MOST OF THE TIME =
people would use eye contact to request and accept a dance. Civilized and discreet--it avoids even the appearance of badgering, or =
desperation. And the issue of "excuses" is deftly avoided entirely.
~Mary Ellen
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 11:23 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Women saying 'No'/Lame excuses
I take womens' answers to my request to dance at face value. At least the
first time around ;-) If I ask soemone to dance and they just say no thank
you, I don't ask them again. If they say "not this time", or "I'm resting"
or some other reason that would not preclude another chance, I'll ask them
again later. Otherwise, I'll not ask again. People have many reasons to
either accept or reject an invitation to dance. I don't want to waste my
time examining their reasons. If it seems to me that they don't want to
dance with me, I'll not bother them again. I think that's the best for
everybody.
Likewise, when I am asked to dance by women, I like to have the option to
decline or accept as I see fit. There are many times that I'd just as soon
not dance with anybody because the music is just not inspiring. Other times
I just don't want to dance a particularly inspiring dance with just anybody.
There is one thing that I don't particularly llike and that is to be
captured by some woman who then takes me and hands me to yet another woman
to dance with... That's not a good feeling. Sometimes it's a wonderful
dancer, but more often it's a dancer who can't get partners any other way.
When this happens it's bad for everybody since I don't enjoy the dance and
I'm sure that neither does this particular person.
Personally, I enjoy best dancing with women who are good followers. I don't
care if they are not the fanciest dancers around or if they are not the most
beautiful, the youngest, or whatever. The best way for people of both
genders to get a lot of dancing is to be good dancers themselves. Practice
your dancing, go to milongas and most of all, dance with the music.
Happy partners to all,
Manuel
Viisit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
