2543 Many Tango Syllabi
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 18:02:55 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Many Tango Syllabi
Any intermediate can show a few tango steps to a random newcomer. But,
a decent teacher has a methodology and strategy of teaching, if not a
formal, written-down curriculum.
Of course the best teachers I have seen go far beyond this, and have
skills at INSPIRING people (By gosh, maybe I CAN become a tango
dancer!), as well as hiding a lot of technique in games or exercises so
that people learn good technique without even realizing it.
A good curriculum means that the teacher has thought through a number
of things, including:
- What is the student's long-term goals (e.g. stage or social)
- Level-appropriateness
- How people learn and progress
- What works best for men and for women
- What things serve as good foundations for the next stage.
- What works, and what they really screwed up last time.
- How to teach musicality, feel, improvisation, etc
- Rates of Retention & graduation relative to drop-out in frustration.
(Not to mention: Entertainment, fun, atmosphere, personality and all
those non-curriculum things)
(Not to dignify: Using a graded syllabus to slow students down to
maximize their time and money spent in the studio. )
(Or even worse: learning a figure off the Zotto "Asi se Baila El Tango
TV series" in the back room just prior to class... don't laugh, I know
this goes on!)
Two points:
(1) I think it is easier to teach some flashy figure to an advanced
dancer, because they have an easier time figuring out what you are
trying to say, or picking things up visually, or maybe they have
already had good instruction and don't so much detailed explanation of
technique, and of course they have already spent time learning how to
learn.
(2) It is much harder to teach beginners, to graduate them to
adv-beginner and then on to intermediate. This is where methodology,
curriculum, and learning how to teach are really, really important.
These two points leads me to honor the local community builders more
than the visiting masters. If the local teacher has prepared the
students, they can pick something up from the visitor; if the local
students are poorly prepared, then the visitor is like the wind through
a meadow... no impact at all.
On Jul 6, 2004, at 9:55 AM, Andy Carrillo wrote:
> Randy,
>
> Great question with a very simple answer: no agreement
> could ever be reached amongst the "great masters"
> because their egos loom in the way.
> ...
> Tango on...
>
> Andy
Tom Stermitz
2525 Birch St
Denver, CO 80207
h: 303-388-2560
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 10:30:00 -0400
From: A Coleman <gurps_npc@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Many Tango Syllabi
Tango is an improvisational dance. It is spontaneous.
Creating a standard Syllabus would dramatically change tango for the WORSE.
It is fine to make one up for your students, even for your school so that
teachers can know what their students at each level should already know.
But it would be wrong, nay, even "evil" to create a standard one and spread
it throughout the land.
They tried to do that before at places like Arthur Murray and Fred Astaire
Dance studio. Notice how well that worked?
It was only after people like Daniel Trenner figured out they had to abandon
the standard steps and combinations that Tango really caught on.
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 08:30:30 -0700
From: Lee Sobo <lsobo@EVENTSTOP.COM>
Subject: Many Tango Syllabi
I have heard this argument from many and don't understand it.
I ask you, what do you improvise with. Don't you do ochos and
molinetes?
Try walking up to a brand new student and telling him that he is going
to improvise and look at the blank stares on his face. He'll ask you to
"improvise with what?"
The only improvisation is having a foundation that you know so well,
you can take anything out anywhere and use it to express the music and
how you feel.
If you call that wrong, that's your choice.
BTW, try going to a workshop anywhere and the first thing they drag out
is a "figure". Then when you try to put that figure down on paper, they
call it wrong. I think it's probably the same people out there studying
the figure.
Just my view.....
======================================================================
Tango is an improvisational dance. It is spontaneous.
Creating a standard Syllabus would dramatically change tango for the
WORSE.
It is fine to make one up for your students, even for your school so
that
teachers can know what their students at each level should already
know.
But it would be wrong, nay, even "evil" to create a standard one and
spread
it throughout the land.
They tried to do that before at places like Arthur Murray and Fred
Astaire
Dance studio. Notice how well that worked?
It was only after people like Daniel Trenner figured out they had to
abandon
the standard steps and combinations that Tango really caught on.
FREE!
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 16:01:07 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: Many Tango Syllabi
On Jul 7, 2004, at 9:30 AM, Lee Sobo wrote:
> I have heard this argument from many and don't understand it.
>
> I ask you, what do you improvise with. Don't you do ochos and
> molinetes?
>
> Try walking up to a brand new student and telling him that he is going
> to improvise and look at the blank stares on his face. He'll ask you to
> "improvise with what?"
> The only improvisation is having a foundation that you know so well,
> you can take anything out anywhere and use it to express the music and
> how you feel.
>
> If you call that wrong, that's your choice.
You are exactly right that improvisation requires having a great
foundation, and that is precisely what the teacher is there for.
But molinetes for beginners!? In my opinion, the turn is an advanced
move. Until they can hear the music, can step on the beat, have some
basic technical skills, are pretty good with ochos, the turn is very
difficult to lead or follow, and struggling with it is a huge
distraction from learning tango.
In fact, some styles of tango just use pieces of the turn, not the
whole molinete. Specifically, on a normally crowded dance floor, the
turn is very difficult... maybe it takes a year or two with to get good
enough to pop off a turn with much grace at all.
I'm with Rose from Portland: tango is about dancing, music, energy and
the feel. Learning lots of difficult, complicated steps takes a
newcomer in the opposite direction from learning tango. Steps are NOT
the dance, they merely the things we do while dancing tango.
How many times have you seen a promising newcomer get sucked into
learning a lot of steps, and actually get much worse at tango. I've
seen this degraded phase last anywhere from a year to infinity.
Three different examples of improvisational methodologies:
(1) Memorize a number of 8 or 12 count sequence, and show the student
how to split them in the middle and splice a second ending onto the
first. A new beginner can sort of memorize one 8 count sequence in
their first day (but it will have to be re-memorized next week). This
beginner would be completely unsuccessful at a milonga their first
night, and marginally successful for quite a while until they learned
how to split their figures.
(2) Teach a student that they can simply walk with their partner around
the room. Over the weeks, introduce elements of tango such as front and
back ochos, the cross, side-steps, walking outside and in front,
cross-footed system, etc. In this method improvisation is the smooth
incorporation of these tango elements, and the ability to flow one into
another. This beginner could probably walk around the first night, but
may have navigational difficulties unless the floor is pretty wide
open.
(3) Memorize a number of four count sequences where improvisation is
the ability to swap between them. A new beginner can learn about 3 or 4
of these short sequences well enough that they can dance that evening
in a milonga. Sure, they'll forget half of them and need reminding the
following week, but after 4 weeks, a guy of average skill can improvise
on 6 or 10 short sequences in tango, waltz and milonga, and be learning
sightly more complex sequences with ochos or cross-footed transitions.
In this method, the key to fluid improvisation is intuitive recall of
the elements, which is achieved by doing lots of repetition until each
piece is firmly in muscle memory.
I've seen all these approaches in use (or hybrids thereof).
In my opinion:
(a) it is easier to learn improvisation by swapping in and out short
sequences; it takes a much higher level of skill to split up an 8 count
memorized sequence.
(b) A woman receives absolutely no benefit from memorizing a long
sequence.
(c) Musicality (meaning stepping on the beat, using the 3 basic rhythms
of tango, and matching energy to the 4-count melodic phrase) can be
learned very early on if the beginner is drilled with shorter sequences
that match what goes on in the music.
(d) Decent lead-follow skill requires that improvisation be learned at
the beginner level, not later on. Pity the poor beginner faced with a
follower who didn't learn the same 8-count sequence. Sometimes ballroom
studios use in-house patterns to keep students locked into their small
circle, causing frustration if they go out into the wider world.
(e) Getting up and dancing as soon as possible is the key to retention
and getting students to join the community. FEELING confident is more
important to success (or at least belief in the possibility of success)
than knowing lots of steps.
> BTW, try going to a workshop anywhere and the first thing they drag out
> is a "figure". Then when you try to put that figure down on paper, they
> call it wrong. I think it's probably the same people out there studying
> the figure.
This is not at all true. Perhaps you have a small subset of "anywhere"
in your experience or you've seen a small subset of tango curricula.
Many teachers teach tango as a walk/flow (2), or swapping in and out
small elements (3), not long memorized figures (1).
Not sure who "they" or those "same people" are.
** Please Update Mailing Address: **
Tom Stermitz
2525 Birch St
Denver, CO 80207
h: 303-388-2560
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 10:39:23 -0400
From: A Coleman <gurps_npc@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Many Tango Syllabi
To the person complaining about beginners not knowing the ocho without a
syllabi:
You are confusing teaching basics and creating a syllabi.
If you are going to dance tango at the very hear, you only need to know the
following "steps":
Follower: When to cross
Follower: to do a molinette/grapevine/gyro (Forward/side/back/side, not
back/side/back/side).
Follower: How to do a gauncho
Followe: How to do a boleo
Leader: How to lead an ocho.
Leader: How to lead a gauncho
Leader: How to lead a boleo
If you know how to do those things, people will look at you and realize that
you are at least TRYING to dance tango. You may do them poorly
Everything else we learn is balance, leading, following, embellishments, and
technique. If you get good at these things you will eventually discover
drags, lapiz, sacadas, colgadas, and all the other cool stuff as a natural
outgrowth of increasing your balance, leading, following, and technique.
Those 4 for the follower and 3 for the leader are not enought to call a
Syllabi and are guaranteed to be taught at all real tango schools anyway.
Worse, only the cross, grapevine and leading an ocho are generally
considered appropriate for beginners. Everything else should be taught in
intermediate classes.
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 00:18:46 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Tango Syllabi
Regarding the recent discussion cetering on Tango syllabi, I offer a link
to a nice article:
https://www.tejastango.com/defin_param.html
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:55:25 +1000
From: Gary Barnes <garybarn@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Tango Syllabi
What is a syllabus? What is it for? Is it good or bad?
One useful definition: '... a syllabus is a list. It is a list of the
topics or themes to be taught
within a given subject. A syllabus is derived from a curriculum. Where a
curriculum is theoretical, a syllabus is practical. Where a curriculum
is
general, a syllabus is specific. A curriculum provides the underlying
rationale for what is to be taught; a syllabus describes the contents
and
order of what is to be taught. If the curriculum is strategy, the
syllabus
is tactics.' {apologies I cannot remember where I pinched this from...}
Curriculum and syllabus development is fundamentally about beliefs - and
they can be used both to attempt to reflect beliefs, and to form them,
as
anyone on a school curriculum committee will tell you!
They can also be used for marketing - to distinguish your 'product'
from the
next guy's and to make it consistent among all your teachers. This is
the
basic aim of a syllabus in dance school franchises and some dance
associations.
Many independent dance teachers are not conscious of either the
curriculum
or the syllabus they are using - a lesson plan is even a rarity for
some!
This does not make them bad teachers, necessarily. Many adjust their
syllabus constantly to suit their student's needs. Most do have an
underlying curriculum, which does not change (or changes only slowly),
but
few spell it out. In some cases, their students are clearer about the
underlying curriculum than the teacher is...
And many teachers who work for franchises, or within a formal system
such as
traditionally organised ballroom, do not recognise that the syllabus
they
present embodies a curriculum which serves the commercial needs of the
franchise, or the award-giving needs of the system, not just the
desires
of the students.
Other teachers are very clear on both their curriculum and syllabus,
but do
not see any need to tell their students - judging that the students just
want to learn to dance, and don't care how the teacher achieves that as
long
as it works.
There is no agreed syllabus for tango, perhaps primarily because there
is no
agreed curriculum. A group of people may agree on a curriculum, and
produce
syllabi from that. These together will encapsulate their beliefs and
methodology about the practice and the teaching of tango - which will
differ
from other people's.
There is no need for an agreed syllabus among all teachers, and it is
very
counter-productive for any teacher to use a syllabus which does not
agree
with their core beliefs about tango - the basis of their curriculum.
If a teacher publishes a curriculum and/or a syllabus which they use
(whether they call it that or not), it can help you choose your teacher.
Even without a curriculum, if the main organising principle used by a
teacher is a syllabus which consists of lists of figures, it probably
tells
you a lot about their philosophy of teaching, and possibly their
philosophy
of tango. It may be that the list of figures is the embodiment of a
structured methodology of teaching basics and technique through
figures; but
it is more likely (IMHO) to indicate a focus on performing the figures
as
the desired outcome.
And for most teachers , they do not publish either a curriculum or a
syllabus, and students make up their mind from word of mouth,
experiment,
etc.. which works just fine most of the time.
It is up to the student to decide...
my 2 cents
--
Gary Barnes
Canberra, Australia
"more tango, more often"
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 11:20:48 -0400
From: A Coleman <gurps_npc@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: tango syllabi
Janis, you took what I said out of context and misunderstood it entirely.
And then insulted me for my spelling etc. These web lists are bad enough
without throwing in off-topic flamings.
I am talking about a tango syllabi. I stand by the meaning behind my post.
Everything I said is accurate, and if you understand it you would have
realized I agree with most of the ideas (if not the insults) in your post.
Yes, the cross is lead, but beginners need to be taught how to do it. If
you know everything about tango EXCEPT how to do the cross then you would do
it automatically, but I do believe, as do every tango teacher I have ever
met, you have to show beginners how to do it.
I never said you HAVE to do the boleos or the gaunchos, even an arrogrant
"Tango My way (close embrace) or no way" person would have to admit that if
you see someone doing an ocho, a boleo, or a gauncho you will think "that
person has some tango training". And while you may personally never do
them, I am willing to bet that you know HOW to do them.
I did not mention walking, because I considered walking, (the most important
part of tango) to be composed of balance, leading, following, and
technique. You took my statement and read it in the exact opposite way, for
apparently no reason I can see. I know it seems hard to understand, but
some people actually agree with you, even if they do not live in Argentina,
and do not spell well.
I never said that the ochos, boleos and gaunchos are the only thing that
should be taught, instead I said that they are guaranteed to be taught, so
their is no need to put them in a "syllabi".
My whole point was in agreement with what you seem to be trying to say: The
important parts of tango are not the fancy steps, which I know will be
taught anyway. Instead it is the simple things that are not well suited to
be listed n a syllabi. Balance, Follow, Lead, Technique. Not the fancier
steps such as saccadas, leans, colgadas, etc.
I continue to claim that the people that want to make a syllabi to ensure
that all know saccadas, colgadas, etc. etc. etc are wrong.
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Janis Kenyon" <jantango@feedback.net.ar>
To: <gurps_npc@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: tango syllabi
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 21:29:46 +0100
From: Hector <hector.ariza@NTLWORLD.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango syllabi
Greetings
Sebastian Arce is a bona-fide world-class tango dancer, and I listen to what
he's got to say with UTMOST respect.
A few thoughts now. IMO, Tango is a popular dance full of emotion, elegance,
self-expression and creativity. However, there're also mechanics and
technique. As I understand it, for generations it has been tought using
patterns. This approach may have been slow, but it has produced very many
great tango dancers. Then, a small subset of these dancers, I guess with
very inquisitive and analytical minds, developed a system that explains the
mechanics or structure of the dance by breaking it down to the most
fundamental level (open step, back cross, front cross, and pivot to left and
right). These building blocks can be combined (of course, only after you've
absorbed the teaching) to create larger and larger patterns in a totally
*improvised* manner. I'm talking here about the work of folks like Gustavo
Naveira, Fabian Salas and a few others. Power to them. Then Mauricio Castro,
with an uncanny business sense, put all that stuff in book and multimedia
format. If it made him richer, good for him.
The purpose of this was to speed up the learning process of the dance -at
least in regards of the mechanics, and enable the dancers to express
themselves without resorting to fixed patters --i.e., freedom on the dance
floor. Caveat: learning the mechanics of the dance is not the same as
learning the dinamics. Although you can learn dinamics at the same time as
mechanics, it makes sense to me that the dancer can start learning BIG time
dinamics after the mechanics of the dance have been absorbed solid, when the
mind doesn't need to focus on the mechanics entirely any more.
I'm very enthusiastic about the analytical approach to teaching and learning
tango, but it is my experience that other folks prefer learning by working
through patters (like in the old days!). So I wouldn't rule out that
approach either -it fits other people's way of learning. It is in this sense
that a syllabi might be useful, particularly *if* the syllabi is well put
together and presented. I wish Christy Cote's good luck with her efforts.
And she's not the only one. Osvaldo Zotto and Moira Godoy also put together
a syllabi with 'Asi se baila el tango', didn't they?...
There is another reason, though. You can grab a syllabi (again, if it is a
good one) and then apply to it the analytical method of learning. So you sit
there, watch the DVDs or tapes or whatever, take notes, wear out the Pause
button, and start analysing how a 'standard' pattern emerges. I believe this
can be complementary to the analytical approach of learning.
Of course, you can also do that by buying a tape or DVD of a popular tango
show (for instance, Tango X 2) and do the same, but the complexity and speed
are far greater, and this makes it more difficult to tackle it as a learning
tool (but great stuff to observe and learn dynamics, though).
Having said all that, I object to tango syllabi if they are used for
examinations and, as Sebastian says (if I read correctly), sort of
judgmental tools. That's against the spirit of the dance.
Finally, as I see it anyway, the purpose of mastering the principles is to
be able to go beyond them. To learn the rules to break the rules, and own
the dance completely (Sebastian's bit on tango and individuality). Then
that's creativity and self-expression at its finest.
Hector
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 09:15:19 -0700
From: Andy Carrillo <coastguardrecruiter@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango syllabi
A thinking man's response well-stated. As I wrote
before, 'a bridge for those of us who cannot walk on
water, or choose not to swim or rent a boat....'
The 'bridge' can be plain and simple, or beautifully
elegant, but they serve but one purpose--to facilitate
a crossing over.
Thanks, Hector, for your thoughtful response.
Andy
--- Hector <hector.ariza@NTLWORLD.COM> wrote:
> Greetings
>
> Sebastian Arce is a bona-fide world-class tango
> dancer, and I listen to what
> he's got to say with UTMOST respect.
>
> A few thoughts now. IMO, Tango is a popular dance
> full of emotion, elegance,
> self-expression and creativity. However, there're
> also mechanics and
> technique. As I understand it, for generations it
> has been tought using
> patterns. This approach may have been slow, but it
> has produced very many
> great tango dancers. Then, a small subset of these
> dancers, I guess with
> very inquisitive and analytical minds, developed a
> system that explains the
> mechanics or structure of the dance by breaking it
> down to the most
> fundamental level (open step, back cross, front
> cross, and pivot to left and
> right). These building blocks can be combined (of
> course, only after you've
> absorbed the teaching) to create larger and larger
> patterns in a totally
> *improvised* manner. I'm talking here about the work
> of folks like Gustavo
> Naveira, Fabian Salas and a few others. Power to
> them. Then Mauricio Castro,
> with an uncanny business sense, put all that stuff
> in book and multimedia
> format. If it made him richer, good for him.
>
> The purpose of this was to speed up the learning
> process of the dance -at
> least in regards of the mechanics, and enable the
> dancers to express
> themselves without resorting to fixed patters
> --i.e., freedom on the dance
> floor. Caveat: learning the mechanics of the dance
> is not the same as
> learning the dinamics. Although you can learn
> dinamics at the same time as
> mechanics, it makes sense to me that the dancer can
> start learning BIG time
> dinamics after the mechanics of the dance have been
> absorbed solid, when the
> mind doesn't need to focus on the mechanics entirely
> any more.
>
> I'm very enthusiastic about the analytical approach
> to teaching and learning
> tango, but it is my experience that other folks
> prefer learning by working
> through patters (like in the old days!). So I
> wouldn't rule out that
> approach either -it fits other people's way of
> learning. It is in this sense
> that a syllabi might be useful, particularly *if*
> the syllabi is well put
> together and presented. I wish Christy Cote's good
> luck with her efforts.
> And she's not the only one. Osvaldo Zotto and Moira
> Godoy also put together
> a syllabi with 'Asi se baila el tango', didn't
> they?...
>
> There is another reason, though. You can grab a
> syllabi (again, if it is a
> good one) and then apply to it the analytical method
> of learning. So you sit
> there, watch the DVDs or tapes or whatever, take
> notes, wear out the Pause
> button, and start analysing how a 'standard' pattern
> emerges. I believe this
> can be complementary to the analytical approach of
> learning.
>
> Of course, you can also do that by buying a tape or
> DVD of a popular tango
> show (for instance, Tango X 2) and do the same, but
> the complexity and speed
> are far greater, and this makes it more difficult to
> tackle it as a learning
> tool (but great stuff to observe and learn dynamics,
> though).
>
> Having said all that, I object to tango syllabi if
> they are used for
> examinations and, as Sebastian says (if I read
> correctly), sort of
> judgmental tools. That's against the spirit of the
> dance.
>
> Finally, as I see it anyway, the purpose of
> mastering the principles is to
> be able to go beyond them. To learn the rules to
> break the rules, and own
> the dance completely (Sebastian's bit on tango and
> individuality). Then
> that's creativity and self-expression at its finest.
>
> Hector
>
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 17:45:01 +0000
From: Sebastian Arce <arcetango@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango syllabi
Andy, did you read carefuly what Hector wrote on his post ???
> > Having said all that, I object to tango syllabi if
> > they are used for
> > examinations and, as Sebastian says (if I read
> > correctly), sort of
> > judgmental tools. That's against the spirit of the
> > dance.
> >
> > Finally, as I see it anyway, the purpose of
> > mastering the principles is to
> > be able to go beyond them. To learn the rules to
> > break the rules, and own
> > the dance completely (Sebastian's bit on tango and
> > individuality). Then
> > that's creativity and self-expression at its finest.
Because if you agree about this phrase above you are finally a
"contradicting thinking man". Or just forgetting to explain how you can be
at the same time : a pro-learning-fixed
rules -under-video-or-book-tango-teacher/promoter/judge and an open minded
teacher who respects, all styles all ways to comunicate tango ?
Hector, thanks again for your post. You probably would like to get this
great cd-room created by a worldwide known choreographer William Forsythe in
wich he analises the dance with geometrical visual tools in 3 dimensions.
I've found it very interesting and helpful. Te mando un abrazo.
Cheers!
S.A.
Sebastian ARCE
Tango Argentino
www.allthattango.com
www.mephisto-tango.com
+33 (0) 1 46 78 63 58
+33 (0) 6 09 52 39 28
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango syllabi
>A thinking man's response well-stated. As I wrote
>before, 'a bridge for those of us who cannot walk on
>water, or choose not to swim or rent a boat....'
>
>The 'bridge' can be plain and simple, or beautifully
>elegant, but they serve but one purpose--to facilitate
>a crossing over.
>
>Thanks, Hector, for your thoughtful response.
>
>Andy
>
>--- Hector <hector.ariza@NTLWORLD.COM> wrote:
> > Greetings
> >
> > Sebastian Arce is a bona-fide world-class tango
> > dancer, and I listen to what
> > he's got to say with UTMOST respect.
> >
> > A few thoughts now. IMO, Tango is a popular dance
> > full of emotion, elegance,
Sebastian ARCE
Tango Argentino
www.allthattango.com
www.mephisto-tango.com
+33 (0) 1 46 78 63 58
+33 (0) 6 09 52 39 28
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 19:19:38 +0100
From: Sebastian Arce <arcetango@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango syllabi
Andy, did you read carefuly what Hector wrote on his post ???
> > Having said all that, I object to tango syllabi if
> > they are used for
> > examinations and, as Sebastian says (if I read
> > correctly), sort of
> > judgmental tools. That's against the spirit of the
> > dance.
> >
> > Finally, as I see it anyway, the purpose of
> > mastering the principles is to
> > be able to go beyond them. To learn the rules to
> > break the rules, and own
> > the dance completely (Sebastian's bit on tango and
> > individuality). Then
> > that's creativity and self-expression at its finest.
Because if you agree about this phrase above you are finally a
"contradicting thinking man". Or just forgetting to explain how you can be
at the same time : a pro-learning-fixed
rules -under-video-or-book-tango-teacher/promoter/judge and an open minded
teacher who respects, all styles all ways to comunicate tango ?
Hector, thanks again for your post. You probably would like to get this
great cd-room created by a worldwide known choreographer William Forsythe in
wich he analises the dance with geometrical visual tools in 3 dimensions.
I've found it very interesting and helpful. Te mando un abrazo.
Cheers!
S.A.
Sebastian ARCE
Tango Argentino
www.allthattango.com
www.mephisto-tango.com
+33 (0) 1 46 78 63 58
+33 (0) 6 09 52 39 28
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango syllabi
> A thinking man's response well-stated. As I wrote
> before, 'a bridge for those of us who cannot walk on
> water, or choose not to swim or rent a boat....'
>
> The 'bridge' can be plain and simple, or beautifully
> elegant, but they serve but one purpose--to facilitate
> a crossing over.
>
> Thanks, Hector, for your thoughtful response.
>
> Andy
>
> --- Hector <hector.ariza@NTLWORLD.COM> wrote:
> > Greetings
> >
> > Sebastian Arce is a bona-fide world-class tango
> > dancer, and I listen to what
> > he's got to say with UTMOST respect.
> >
> > A few thoughts now. IMO, Tango is a popular dance
> > full of emotion, elegance,
Sebastian ARCE
Tango Argentino
www.allthattango.com
www.mephisto-tango.com
+33 (0) 1 46 78 63 58
+33 (0) 6 09 52 39 28
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:45:55 -0700
From: Andy Carrillo <coastguardrecruiter@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango syllabi
Dear Sebastian,
Hector's objection to syllabii as a 'judgemental tool'
was duly noted, and this seems to be basic conflict at
the heart of the this whole discussion: the 'feelers'
who want no one to judge them while they themselves
judge everyone else, and the 'thinkers' who want to
completely understand the dance and all its nuances,
so they can make informed choices as to whom to look
to for tango guidance. Yet all of us seek to recreate
that special 'tango moment' which hooked us on this
dance. And like religion, there is no one right way to
seek tango salvation despite what all the 'great tango
messiahs' would preach.
Creativity and the ability to improvise, to make any
activity 'one's own' comes from hard work and
dedication, instruction and guidance, and practice. I
know of no other way to achieve 'tango enlightenment'.
I aspire to become a fine lead for my companion; I'll
leave the greatness to others.
As for this 'ego' obstacle I mentioned in an earlier
post, I have but one question: how many fine women
dancers were invited to participate in this conference
you attended, and who were they? Was Marianna Dragone
or Miriam Larici present, or invited? Any others?
The prosecution rests....
Abrazos,
Andy
--- Sebastian Arce <arcetango@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> Andy, did you read carefuly what Hector wrote on his
> post ???
>
> > > Having said all that, I object to tango syllabi
> if
> > > they are used for
> > > examinations and, as Sebastian says (if I read
> > > correctly), sort of
> > > judgmental tools. That's against the spirit of
> the
> > > dance.
> > >
> > > Finally, as I see it anyway, the purpose of
> > > mastering the principles is to
> > > be able to go beyond them. To learn the rules to
> > > break the rules, and own
> > > the dance completely (Sebastian's bit on tango
> and
> > > individuality). Then
> > > that's creativity and self-expression at its
> finest.
>
> Because if you agree about this phrase above you are
> finally a
> "contradicting thinking man". Or just forgetting to
> explain how you can be
> at the same time : a pro-learning-fixed
> rules
> -under-video-or-book-tango-teacher/promoter/judge
> and an open minded
> teacher who respects, all styles all ways to
> comunicate tango ?
>
> Hector, thanks again for your post. You probably
> would like to get this
> great cd-room created by a worldwide known
> choreographer William Forsythe in
> wich he analises the dance with geometrical visual
> tools in 3 dimensions.
> I've found it very interesting and helpful. Te mando
> un abrazo.
>
> Cheers!
>
> S.A.
>
> Sebastian ARCE
> Tango Argentino
>
> www.allthattango.com
> www.mephisto-tango.com
>
> +33 (0) 1 46 78 63 58
> +33 (0) 6 09 52 39 28
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andy Carrillo"
> <coastguardrecruiter@YAHOO.COM>
> To: <>
> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 5:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango syllabi
>
>
> >A thinking man's response well-stated. As I wrote
> >before, 'a bridge for those of us who cannot walk
> on
> >water, or choose not to swim or rent a boat....'
> >
> >The 'bridge' can be plain and simple, or
> beautifully
> >elegant, but they serve but one purpose--to
> facilitate
> >a crossing over.
> >
> >Thanks, Hector, for your thoughtful response.
> >
> >Andy
> >
> >--- Hector <hector.ariza@NTLWORLD.COM> wrote:
> > > Greetings
> > >
> > > Sebastian Arce is a bona-fide world-class tango
> > > dancer, and I listen to what
> > > he's got to say with UTMOST respect.
> > >
> > > A few thoughts now. IMO, Tango is a popular
> dance
> > > full of emotion, elegance,
>
> Sebastian ARCE
> Tango Argentino
>
> www.allthattango.com
> www.mephisto-tango.com
>
> +33 (0) 1 46 78 63 58
> +33 (0) 6 09 52 39 28
>
>
>
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 21:47:27 +0100
From: Sebastian Arce <arcetango@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango syllabi
I don't remember which followers were at the meeting. Sorry. I actually
don't remember all of the assistants of the masters that were there - I
remember I was one of them among, Diego and Andrea, Jorge and Lorena,
Fernando Alvarez, Fabian Salas, etc etc... but I remember them because I
knew them, there were others I'd never met before. It was a long time
ago.
I'm getting tired of this whole subject. I realize that you don't get my
idea and you don't know who I am or in which way I teach. You see me as
a "feeler"... well, if you take one of my lessons I'm 100 % sure that
you'll think differently since I can get you dizzy with tango motion
theories and schemas. You'll probably think that my teaching is based in
geometry and physics studies rather than feelings, although for me, all
are interconnected.
I've heard you have been dancing tango for about two years. It's obvious
that with the way you are replying to the post, you haven't experienced
that many ways to learn and teach tango. There is no one supporting your
position or ideas. Do you really feel, with your limited experience that
you can speak with such authority about the subject? You are talking
about subjects that are very far from your dancing level. Not because
you are necessarily a bad leader but mostly because you still have to
experiment with a lot of others ways to learn tango and dance tango
before judging them so critically.
People dance tango and people want to learn. There are not feelers or
thinkers. There are students period. They don't want you spending time
trying to make them feel or think. They just want to dance: Now if you
teach them a syllabi by heart, from sequence #1 to sequence #25, you are
stealing their money. You leave them with the feeling that they are
dancing but when they get to take lessons with other teachers that have
no "syllabi" for teaching bases, the students get frustrated and they
can not appreciate the true art that the teacher is trying to transmit
them. Why do they get frustrated? Because you have put parameters into
their dancing, you have confused them and made them believe that they
were good when they truly weren't that good!
Now Andy keep defending your status as a teacher (given by the syllabi
you have learned), and I will continue teaching my way which has been
quite successful worldwide, over 10 years (including to many US
students).
Take care,
Sebastian ARCE
Tango Argentino
www.allthattango.com
www.mephisto-tango.com
+33 (0) 1 46 78 63 58
+33 (0) 6 09 52 39 28
----- Original Message -----
Wrom: CGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZL
To: <TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango syllabi
> Dear Sebastian,
>
> Hector's objection to syllabii as a 'judgemental tool'
> was duly noted, and this seems to be basic conflict at
> the heart of the this whole discussion: the 'feelers'
> who want no one to judge them while they themselves
> judge everyone else, and the 'thinkers' who want to
> completely understand the dance and all its nuances,
> so they can make informed choices as to whom to look
> to for tango guidance. Yet all of us seek to recreate
> that special 'tango moment' which hooked us on this
> dance. And like religion, there is no one right way to
> seek tango salvation despite what all the 'great tango
> messiahs' would preach.
>
> Creativity and the ability to improvise, to make any
> activity 'one's own' comes from hard work and
> dedication, instruction and guidance, and practice. I
> know of no other way to achieve 'tango enlightenment'.
> I aspire to become a fine lead for my companion; I'll
> leave the greatness to others.
>
> As for this 'ego' obstacle I mentioned in an earlier
> post, I have but one question: how many fine women
> dancers were invited to participate in this conference
> you attended, and who were they? Was Marianna Dragone
> or Miriam Larici present, or invited? Any others?
>
> The prosecution rests....
>
> Abrazos,
>
> Andy
>
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 16:38:03 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango syllabi
>----Original Message Follows----
>From: Andy Carrillo <coastguardrecruiter@YAHOO.COM>
>and this seems to be basic conflict at
>the heart of the this whole discussion: the 'feelers'
>who want no one to judge them while they themselves
>judge everyone else,
This is funny, I really think you hit the nail on the proverbial head :)
>and the 'thinkers' who want to
>completely understand the dance and all its nuances,
>so they can make informed choices as to whom to look
>to for tango guidance.
Well, I'm not sure there is such clear binary division between "feelers" &
"thinkers". Although there are people out there who would fit the "thinker"
category you describe, I think that the division is rather along the lines
of those who who want to only dance simply and socially at the milonga and
those who aspire to emulate or become the masters themselves.....
>Yet all of us seek to recreate
>that special 'tango moment' which hooked us on this
>dance. And like religion, there is no one right way to
>seek tango salvation despite what all the 'great tango
>messiahs' would preach.
Amen brother! you are preaching to the converted ;)
>Creativity and the ability to improvise, to make any
>activity 'one's own' comes from hard work and
>dedication, instruction and guidance, and practice. I
>know of no other way to achieve 'tango enlightenment'.
True that. I think that some people confuse their lack of skill in dancing
tango and their inability to do even simple turns with a minimalist yet
elegant mastery of tango with emphasis on the "feelings". That's why they
judge others as un-authentic, stage dancers.
Personally, I believe that every one eventually develops their own tango.
However, I do think that there is a need to master some basic skills and at
least a modicum of traditional tango "vocabulary". This does not mean the
adoption of some universal syllabus, but it would require learning from
those who can dance and teach others. the teaching methods vary as the
teachers do. the efficacy and value of each teacher and each method cannot
be judged under any single standard except perhaps by how well (at least
some of) their students dance.
Good teachers for all,
Manuel
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2004 20:40:25 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango syllabi
Andy Carrillo wrote:
>Dear Sebastian,
>
>Hector's objection to syllabii as a 'judgemental tool'
>was duly noted, and this seems to be basic conflict at
>the heart of the this whole discussion:
>
Ah, I see the attempt at a rhetorical judo throw coming ...
>the 'feelers'
>who want no one to judge them while they themselves
>judge everyone else,
>
Precisely how do you know 'feelers' want to judge everyone
else?
Here you knock down the straw man:
>and the 'thinkers' who want to
>completely understand the dance and all its nuances,
>so they can make informed choices as to whom to look
>to for tango guidance.
>
Questions:
-- how do you know that a tango 'thinker' could come up
with a Unified Theory of Tango all students can use?
-- How many ways of completely understanding the dance
exist? And what criteria would one use to decide
between them?
For that matter you assume something here which makes no
sense to me: how could any student ever grasp all of Tango
and its nuances before having mastered Tango? And if they
understand Tango and all its nuances, why would they need
guidance?
>Yet all of us seek to recreate
>that special 'tango moment' which hooked us on this
>dance.
>
A truism, quite without meaning in this discussion.
>And like religion, there is no one right way to
>seek tango salvation despite what all the 'great tango
>messiahs' would preach.
>
>
Which 'great Tango Messiahs' would preach the one way to
seek Tango Salvation?
Name some names, buster.
><snipped another truism>
>
>As for this 'ego' obstacle I mentioned in an earlier
>post, I have but one question: how many fine women
>dancers were invited to participate in this conference
>you attended, and who were they? Was Marianna Dragone
>or Miriam Larici present, or invited? Any others?
>
And what has that to do with the discussion up to this
point, Mr. Carillo? Why pull out the scurrilous tactics
of Politikal Korrektness (mispellings intentional) here?
>The prosecution rests....
>
>
And you call yourself a prosecutor, even. How revealing.
<snip to the end>
--
Christopher L. Everett
Chief Technology Officer www.medbanner.com
MedBanner, Inc. www.physemp.com
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 04:38:47 -0400
From: Michael B Ditkoff <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango syllabi
I think too many people are getting caught up in the word syllabus. In
ballroom, it's used in the context of competition. A couple's dance has
to include the elements in the syllabus, e.g. a promenade, underarm turn,
etc. depending on the dance. Supposedly, the judges check the dancers to
ensure that all the elements are done. That's impossible. I've been to
competitions where there might be 10 couples and 4 judges and the musical
selection is about 1:30. Their is one judge who has the sole mission to
see if the dancers are using steps NOT in the syllabus, e.g. dancing a
gold figure in a bronze competition. Even still, this judge can't give
full attention to EVERY couple to ensure no one is using an "illegal"
figure.
My private teacher has a syllabus for his classes. However, the syllabus
is more of a check list to ensure the elements and technique (not just
figures) he wants taught are taught. The first week deals with frame,
posture, axis, balance, the man moving the upper body first, etc. He's
not training competitive dancers but teaching dancers how to move.
I don't see anything wrong for a teacher to use a check list to make sure
nothing important is left out of instruction.
Michael
Washington, DC
Bought my Amtrak ticket to NY last Saturday for the Tango Festival July
22-25.
Leaving Wednesday on #178, motor 915, eight wagons, track 24
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 17:31:23 +0100
From: Bruce Stephens <bruce@CENDERIS.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Tango syllabi
Michael B Ditkoff <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM> writes:
[...]
> My private teacher has a syllabus for his classes. However, the
> syllabus is more of a check list to ensure the elements and
> technique (not just figures) he wants taught are taught. The first
> week deals with frame, posture, axis, balance, the man moving the
> upper body first, etc. He's not training competitive dancers but
> teaching dancers how to move.
>
> I don't see anything wrong for a teacher to use a check list to make
> sure nothing important is left out of instruction.
Sure, but that doesn't seem like what, for example,
<https://www.elmundodeltango.com/body_video_library.htm> is offering.
(It may be, it's hard to say without actually seeing the videos.)
That looks much more like a ballroomy catalogue of figures. (Again,
it may not be---it may be a set of classes of move such as giro,
secada, etc., explained and illustrated with some specific figures.
I've been to a number of workshops like that---indeed, *many*
workshops are like that---and they can work very well.)
And it certainly doesn't seem like what
<https://www.dancevision.com/store/videos/browse_by_instructors/christy_cot_george_garcia/>
offers. Again, it's hard to be sure without seeing them, but the
descriptions don't look promising. (It's the first link google gives
for "argentine tango syllabus"; I don't have that kind of thing
bookmarked, honest.)
[...]
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 10:22:20 -0700
From: Michael <michael@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango syllabi
Bruce Stephens wrote:
> Sure, but that doesn't seem like what, for example,
> <https://www.elmundodeltango.com/body_video_library.htm> is offering.
> (It may be, it's hard to say without actually seeing the videos.)
> That looks much more like a ballroomy catalogue of figures. (Again,
> it may not be---it may be a set of classes of move such as giro,
> secada, etc., explained and illustrated with some specific figures.
> I've been to a number of workshops like that---indeed, *many*
> workshops are like that---and they can work very well.)
>
> And it certainly doesn't seem like what
> <https://www.dancevision.com/store/videos/browse_by_instructors/christy_cot_george_garcia/>
> offers. Again, it's hard to be sure without seeing them, but the
> descriptions don't look promising. (It's the first link google gives
> for "argentine tango syllabus"; I don't have that kind of thing
> bookmarked, honest.)
The main point here - anytime you see the "bronze, silver, gold" labels
on anything having to do with dance you are looking at something being
marketed to *ballroom* dancers and teachers - it's all about the $$.
This is precisely the sort of tripe that happened here in Bellingham -
we had ballroom teachers watching a few Argentine tango videos and then
hanging out their shingles as qualified instructors. It is one of the
reasons our teachers asked Marjorie and me to start teaching a beginners
class.
I don't know either of these vendors personally, I've never seen them
teach or dance, and I've never seen these videos, but the very fact that
they've gone down this path and used these labels *destroys* their
credibility for me - I certainly won't be paying them to come do
workshops for my students, and I will actively discourage my students
from purchasing their videos.
Michael
Tango Bellingham
www.tangobellingham.com
