5642 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many figures
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 13:03:28 -0400
From: "Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau@law.nyc.gov>
Subject: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many figures
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Cc: syarzhuk@gmail.com
<DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFCAE@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
Sergey says a friend of his came up with 1000 sacadas? Please show
them to me.
>>From a pure sturcutral anlaysis, by my calculation there are only 48.
Here is my analysis:
Lets start with leader doing sac to follower. There are only 3 steps
involving full weight shift for follower in tango. Front cross, back
cross, and open. They can be done with two different feet. So thats a
total of six positions available to sacada. For each step of
follower, lets say right open step, the leader could do 4 different
sacadas to her departing left foot; front sac with right or left, back
sac with right or left. (Side sacadas by leader are just a variety of
one of above, it makes no difference to me whether your angle of
approach is 90 degress, 85 degrees, 45 degrees, etc.)
So that makes 24 for leader. The follower could be led to do the same
to the leader. So that gives you another 24 for a total of 48 sacadas.
-Martin Nussbaum
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 17:24:27 -0400
From: Sergey Kazachenko <syarzhuk@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many
figures
To: "Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau@law.nyc.gov>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<ebb7980c0905111424p6603d68ctcd158eec3a2a589a@mail.gmail.com>
This is the beginning, but he was going into more and more details.
For example, if I remember correctly, instead of your "4 different sacadas"
he would count 6 - L/R foot, done with front cross, back cross and open.
Also he would count an extra variation done with both feet at the same time
- it looked like a jump that was so out of place in tango. I have never ever
seen him or anyone else doing that jumpy sacada with both feet, but it was
included for the purpose of classification. I got lost somewhere there, but
there were more and more minute variations that were bringing the total
count to hundreds.
Sergey
On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Nussbaum, Martin <mnussbau@law.nyc.gov>wrote:
>
> Sergey says a friend of his came up with 1000 sacadas? Please show
> them to me.
> From a pure sturcutral anlaysis, by my calculation there are only 48.
> Here is my analysis:
> Lets start with leader doing sac to follower. There are only 3 steps
> involving full weight shift for follower in tango. Front cross, back
> cross, and open. They can be done with two different feet. So thats a
> total of six positions available to sacada. For each step of
> follower, lets say right open step, the leader could do 4 different
> sacadas to her departing left foot; front sac with right or left, back
> sac with right or left. (Side sacadas by leader are just a variety of
> one of above, it makes no difference to me whether your angle of
> approach is 90 degress, 85 degrees, 45 degrees, etc.)
> So that makes 24 for leader. The follower could be led to do the same
> to the leader. So that gives you another 24 for a total of 48 sacadas.
> -Martin Nussbaum
>
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 18:12:48 -0400
From: "Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau@law.nyc.gov>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many
figures
To: "Sergey Kazachenko" <syarzhuk@gmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFCC0@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
You are double counting some of these. For example, on her right open
step, if you do right front sac to her departing left foot, it is open,
if you use your left foot, you are crossed.
Yikes, I had not considered using both feet at the same time. I
actually have seen Chicho do that on youtube.
But why stop there? How about also counting using one or both hands to
do the sacada, like a baseball player slide into home plate ? If you
enter head first, does that count as another sacada? What if you dont
use any limbs, but just sort of do a shimmy shake or limbo sacada with
your rear?
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 21:54:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many
figures
OK, I'll bite.
For the receiver,?there are?6 ?positions; front cross, back cross and opening,
all on either right foot or left foot.
For the giver, there a 6 ways - forward, back and side, with either foot..
That's 36 possibilities. For man or lady being either giver or receiver, that's 72.
Finally, I like to separate linear and circular figures. A Sacada during a walk
feels very different to a Sacada during a Giro..That would bring the total to 144.
I suppose it's possible to distinguish between light and strong Sacadas
as the receiver's leg would react differently. That would make 288.
I'm not even gonna consider a double-foot Sacada :-).
Jack
> From: Sergey Kazachenko <syarzhuk@gmail.com>
>
> This is the beginning, but he was going into more and more details.
>
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 12:36:37 +0200
From: Bertil Nestorius <bertil36@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many
figures
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>
Here is a dance when Chicho is doing the sacada with both feet, he of course is one of the few that actaully can get away with it.
You find it about 2:35 in this video
Bertil
> Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 18:12:48 -0400
> From: mnussbau@law.nyc.gov
> To: syarzhuk@gmail.com
> CC: tango-l@mit.edu
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many figures
>
>
> You are double counting some of these. For example, on her right open
> step, if you do right front sac to her departing left foot, it is open,
> if you use your left foot, you are crossed.
> Yikes, I had not considered using both feet at the same time. I
> actually have seen Chicho do that on youtube.
> But why stop there? How about also counting using one or both hands to
> do the sacada, like a baseball player slide into home plate ? If you
> enter head first, does that count as another sacada? What if you dont
> use any limbs, but just sort of do a shimmy shake or limbo sacada with
> your rear?
More than messages?check out the rest of the Windows Live?.
https://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 14:33:29 +0200
From: Bertil Nestorius <bertil36@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] FW: 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many
figures
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>
sorry here it is;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvQ3wgo9jLc
> From: ralph.hangleiter@web.de
> To: bertil36@hotmail.com
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many figures
> Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 13:06:14 +0200
>
> Bertil - you forgot to add the link...
> Am 12.05.2009 um 12:36 schrieb Bertil Nestorius:
>
>>
>> Here is a dance when Chicho is doing the sacada with both feet, he
>> of course is one of the few that actaully can get away with it.
>>
>> You find it about 2:35 in this video
>>
>> Bertil
>>
>>> Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 18:12:48 -0400
>>> From: mnussbau@law.nyc.gov
>>> To: syarzhuk@gmail.com
>>> CC: tango-l@mit.edu
>>> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many
>>> figures
>>>
>>>
>>> You are double counting some of these. For example, on her right
>>> open
>>> step, if you do right front sac to her departing left foot, it is
>>> open,
>>> if you use your left foot, you are crossed.
>>> Yikes, I had not considered using both feet at the same time. I
>>> actually have seen Chicho do that on youtube.
>>> But why stop there? How about also counting using one or both
>>> hands to
>>> do the sacada, like a baseball player slide into home plate ? If
>>> you
>>> enter head first, does that count as another sacada? What if you
>>> dont
>>> use any limbs, but just sort of do a shimmy shake or limbo sacada
>>> with
>>> your rear?
>>
>> More than messages?check out the rest of the Windows Live?.
>> https://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/
>
Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. Check it out!
Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. Check it out!
https://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 11:28:58 -0400
From: "Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau@law.nyc.gov>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many
figures
To: "Manu Ruiz" <manuel.ruiz@skynet.be>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
<DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7055EFCD0@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
I guess I am not as dogmatic a purist as you are, Manu, in that I will
accept soltadas or embrace changes as part of tango. Yes, the 4th
sacada in question may require a release of the embrace, or maybe an
overhead or behind the back salsa- type hand shift, since the leader
spins in the opposite direction from the follower. These are referred
to by Gustavo Naveira as "fourth sacadas" and by others as "inverted
sacadas." If you want your nuevo tango to look more pure, it is
preferable to use soltada rather than borrow an overhead hand shift from
another dance. Its just the pre lead right before the soltada has to be
very clear so the follower knows where to step when there is no embrace.
-----Original Message-----
From: Manu Ruiz [mailto:manuel.ruiz@skynet.be]
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 8:13 AM
To: Nussbaum, Martin; tango-l@mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many
figures
Martin wrote:
"For each step of
follower, lets say right open step, the leader could do 4 different
sacadas to her departing left foot; front sac with right or left, back
sac with right or left. (Side sacadas by leader are just a variety of
> one of above, it makes no difference to me whether your angle of
> approach is 90 degress, 85 degrees, 45 degrees, etc.) So that makes 24
> for leader. "
I believe you can only do 3 different "traditional" sacadas for the
"giver"
instead of 4 to the trailing foot of the follower since the turning
direction is already determined by the follower step. If you're both
turning clockwise that would be for the leader:
- open (forward or side) with left (1);
- front cross with right (2);
- back cross with right (3);
You counted:
- forward with left (1);
- backward with left;
- forward with right (2);
- backward with right (3);
correctly stating that
- side with left is structurally the same as forward with left
- side with right (as far as that is possible) is structurally the
same as forward with right
I think "backward with left" is only realistic if you combine it with a
soltada or something. Maybe not a "pure" tango move.
The "basic" total would then be:
(2 dancers) x (3 receiver steps) x (2 receiver feet) x (3 "giver" steps)
=
36 instead of 48
Regards,
Manuel
From: "Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau@law.nyc.gov>
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 7:03 PM
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Cc: <syarzhuk@gmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many figures
>
> Sergey says a friend of his came up with 1000 sacadas? Please show
> them to me.
>>>From a pure sturcutral anlaysis, by my calculation there are only 48.
> Here is my analysis:
> Lets start with leader doing sac to follower. There are only 3 steps
> involving full weight shift for follower in tango. Front cross,
back
> cross, and open. They can be done with two different feet. So thats
a
> total of six positions available to sacada. For each step of
> follower, lets say right open step, the leader could do 4 different
> sacadas to her departing left foot; front sac with right or left,
back
> sac with right or left. (Side sacadas by leader are just a variety
of
> one of above, it makes no difference to me whether your angle of
> approach is 90 degress, 85 degrees, 45 degrees, etc.)
> So that makes 24 for leader. The follower could be led to do the
same
> to the leader. So that gives you another 24 for a total of 48 sacadas.
> -Martin Nussbaum
>
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 10:32:18 +1000
From: Gary <garybarn@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many
figures
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Sure there's 1000 sacadas. Maybe 10000.
There's that one at the sixth bar of Bahia Blanca, and the one just
after the chorus in La Jumba, and there's that one late at night with
De Caro with that woman I don't know the name of, and the little tiny
one that snuck into the middle of Corazon de Oro when there was
hardly room to move.
And that's just a start. There's probably millions!
GB
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 20:54:49 -0400
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many
figures
To: "Gary" <garybarn@ozemail.com.au>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
To me there are only TWO sacadas: front and back. These messages remind me
of a traffic circle. There's only ONE traffic circle at Columbus Circle in
New York. You can enter it from 8th Avenue and Broadway northbound, 59th
Street westbound, and exit on Broadway soutbound and northbound. Regardless
of where you enter and exit, there's only ONE traffic circle.
Michael
I danced Argentine Tango - - with the Argentines
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 8:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many figures
> Sure there's 1000 sacadas. Maybe 10000.
>
> There's that one at the sixth bar of Bahia Blanca, and the one just
> after the chorus in La Jumba, and there's that one late at night with
> De Caro with that woman I don't know the name of, and the little tiny
> one that snuck into the middle of Corazon de Oro when there was
> hardly room to move.
>
> And that's just a start. There's probably millions!
>
> GB
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 12:06:45 +1000
From: Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many
figures
To: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Cc: Gary <garybarn@ozemail.com.au>, tango-l@mit.edu
<cb8208d0905121906h3970e5car1ada501d022d545e@mail.gmail.com>
So, you don't consider a side sacada a sacada??
2009/5/13 Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>:
> To me there are only TWO sacadas: front and back.
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 15:38:27 +0000 (GMT)
From: Mr tobias conradi <tobias_conradi@yahoo.de>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many
figures
To: tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>
Is the sacada a building or is it a movement?
--
Tobias Conradi
Rheinsberger Str. 18
10115 Berlin, Germany
https://eng.tango.info https://festivals.tango.info
https://reliquias.tango.info https://gmap.tango.info
https://info.tango.info
----- Urspr?ngliche Mail ----
> Von: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
> An: Gary <garybarn@ozemail.com.au>; tango-l@mit.edu
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, den 13. Mai 2009, 02:54:49 Uhr
> Betreff: Re: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many figures
>
> To me there are only TWO sacadas: front and back. These messages remind me
> of a traffic circle. There's only ONE traffic circle at Columbus Circle in
> New York. You can enter it from 8th Avenue and Broadway northbound, 59th
> Street westbound, and exit on Broadway soutbound and northbound. Regardless
> of where you enter and exit, there's only ONE traffic circle.
>
> Michael
> I danced Argentine Tango - - with the Argentines
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gary"
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 8:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] 1000 sacadas? More like 48. Was - how many figures
>
>
> > Sure there's 1000 sacadas. Maybe 10000.
> >
> > There's that one at the sixth bar of Bahia Blanca, and the one just
> > after the chorus in La Jumba, and there's that one late at night with
> > De Caro with that woman I don't know the name of, and the little tiny
> > one that snuck into the middle of Corazon de Oro when there was
> > hardly room to move.
> >
> > And that's just a start. There's probably millions!
> >
> > GB
>
