4180  Always close embrace I

Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 19:53:46 +0000
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Always close embrace I
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Derik says:

"The problem I have with the "close embrace all the
time" people is ignorance, and then them trying to
spread that ignorance around, by promoting their own
inexperienced teachers. If the "close embrace all the
time people" would just dance the way they want to and
leave other people alone (not try to teach their
ignorance), then I would have no problem with them at
all."

I think we should analyze the reasons a particular individual chooses to
dance in a particular way.

1 - The style of the local available instructor. Here we should
acknowledge the existence of several periods:

An initial period (early nineties):

Most instructors traveling abroad taught open embrace salon style (called
tango fantasia by some people, nowadays).

This style could be very demanding in the way of physical conditioning,
dancing skills and availability of space to dance, (it trains for stage
dancing although it can be done as a social form) but it can be simplified
to some extent to adjust to different circumstances.

The students at this period (ignorant of the existence of different tango
styles assumed that that was the only Argentine Tango).

A few years later ( mid nineties):

People started to travel to Argentina to improve their dancing and
discovered that most people at the milongas danced in close embrace. A
different form of the one they had been taught.

This form was more compact, kept the close embrace all the time except for
minor adjustments and the best of all: it was excellent for dancing in
crowded milongas and at the same time it was not as demanding of physical
conditioning, skills and rigorous training as the other form. It was ideal
for social dancing done by people of all ages and physical aptitude.

These people returned home believing that they had been cheated and
proclaimed that the "real tango was done in close embrace". At the same
time instructors of this style started to travel abroad saying " if you wish
to dance in buenos Aires, you should learn this style, because most people
there dance this form. They were not lying, this was the truth.

They said "most" people dance only in close embrace. They neglected to
mention that many others danced 'Salon open embrace' , that many danced both
ways open and close embrace, and that a few were starting to dance "Nuevo
tango" and "Canyengue".

During this period many people started instruction in 'milonguero, close
embrace'.
That was all they knew, they were convinced this was the only tango that
existed. Many other dancers frustrated with their impossibility to master
the 'Tango Fantasia' joined in. They had plenty of room to dance but they
chose to make the room smaller to reproduce the situation in Buenos Aires.

When dancing with beginners of "open embrace" started to complain about
them: "they show off",
"they dance externally (for the audience) rather than internally the way we
do it", "they are rude, as they provoke frequent collisions", etc. The
dancers of only 'Open embrace rarely complained about the others but
interiorly many of them thought that close embrace seemed to be an
"inferior" form of dancing tango.

During this period Nuevo Tango was introduced by traveling instructors of
this style.

Here again we have a style that is very demanding in the way of physical
aptitude, skills and training.
Due to all those factors this style atracted mostly young dancers.

Will continue, Best regards, Sergio.

Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 13:26:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Always close embrace I
To: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>, tango-l@mit.edu

Dear Sergio:

Thank you for the summary. I agree with you
completely. Excellent!

Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com


--- Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> Derik says:
>
> "The problem I have with the "close embrace all the
> time" people is ignorance, and then them trying to
> spread that ignorance around, by promoting their own
> inexperienced teachers. If the "close embrace all
> the
> time people" would just dance the way they want to
> and
> leave other people alone (not try to teach their
> ignorance), then I would have no problem with them
> at
> all."
>
> I think we should analyze the reasons a particular
> individual chooses to
> dance in a particular way.
>
> 1 - The style of the local available instructor.
> Here we should
> acknowledge the existence of several periods:
>
> An initial period (early nineties):
>
> Most instructors traveling abroad taught open
> embrace salon style (called
> tango fantasia by some people, nowadays).
>
> This style could be very demanding in the way of
> physical conditioning,
> dancing skills and availability of space to dance,
> (it trains for stage
> dancing although it can be done as a social form)
> but it can be simplified
> to some extent to adjust to different circumstances.
>
> The students at this period (ignorant of the
> existence of different tango
> styles assumed that that was the only Argentine
> Tango).
>
> A few years later ( mid nineties):
>
> People started to travel to Argentina to improve
> their dancing and
> discovered that most people at the milongas danced
> in close embrace. A
> different form of the one they had been taught.
>
> This form was more compact, kept the close embrace
> all the time except for
> minor adjustments and the best of all: it was
> excellent for dancing in
> crowded milongas and at the same time it was not as
> demanding of physical
> conditioning, skills and rigorous training as the
> other form. It was ideal
> for social dancing done by people of all ages and
> physical aptitude.
>
> These people returned home believing that they had
> been cheated and
> proclaimed that the "real tango was done in close
> embrace". At the same
> time instructors of this style started to travel
> abroad saying " if you wish
> to dance in buenos Aires, you should learn this
> style, because most people
> there dance this form. They were not lying, this was
> the truth.
>
> They said "most" people dance only in close embrace.
> They neglected to
> mention that many others danced 'Salon open embrace'
> , that many danced both
> ways open and close embrace, and that a few were
> starting to dance "Nuevo
> tango" and "Canyengue".
>
> During this period many people started instruction
> in 'milonguero, close
> embrace'.
> That was all they knew, they were convinced this was
> the only tango that
> existed. Many other dancers frustrated with their
> impossibility to master
> the 'Tango Fantasia' joined in. They had plenty of
> room to dance but they
> chose to make the room smaller to reproduce the
> situation in Buenos Aires.
>
> When dancing with beginners of "open embrace"
> started to complain about
> them: "they show off",
> "they dance externally (for the audience) rather
> than internally the way we
> do it", "they are rude, as they provoke frequent
> collisions", etc. The
> dancers of only 'Open embrace rarely complained
> about the others but
> interiorly many of them thought that close embrace
> seemed to be an
> "inferior" form of dancing tango.
>
> During this period Nuevo Tango was introduced by
> traveling instructors of
> this style.
>
> Here again we have a style that is very demanding
> in the way of physical
> aptitude, skills and training.
> Due to all those factors this style atracted mostly
> young dancers.
>
> Will continue, Best regards, Sergio.
>
>
> Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN
> Search!
>
>
>

Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 20:38:45 +0000
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Always close embrace II
To: tango-l@mit.edu, patangos@yahoo.com

Now we have people that only know how to dance in one or the other style
(open or close embrace). Discussions started in reference to every aspect
of the dance as the different styles have certain elements that
differentiate them. (technique, goal, etc).

I started then the discussion of different styles in A. Tango. I was
attacked from every corner as every one had reasons to believe that I
favored one style over the others. Many tango instructors felt threatened
feeling that my talking about certain possible choices at the time of taking
lessons was going to cause them to lose students.

Now we have a period when we understand that there are several forms or
styles in which one can dance tango. The discussion however persists.

Somebody just said that Derik is playing Devil's advocate stimulating a
discussion while as he would say "lol".

I do not think this to be the case I think that he genuinely thinks that he
was cheated by the instructors of 'close embrace tango' the same as the
earlier dancers believed that the instructors of 'open style' had cheated
them.

But you know what ?, nobody was cheated . There are many styles to dance and
every instructor teaches the one he knows.

Among the reasons for preferring a style over another we could consider (now
that we know we have a choice):

a) Age and physical skills: Everyone should dance according to his age.
An older person should not pretend to dance like a young one would do.
There are people that dance very fast, doing all sort of skillful moves in a
few seconds and there are others that dance very slowly.

b) Your goal as a dancer: Do you want to be a social dancer or you have the
goal of becoming a professional, stage tango dancer. Do you want to become a
tango teacher? While it is possible to do any style socially it is obvious
that close embrace (including canyengue) adapts the best to crowded
milongas. The other styles open embrace salon and nuevo require lots of room
to dance more or less comfortably.

We certainly do not have to dance close embrace because it is done in the
crowded milongas of B.A. when we have lots of room available. We let other
factors determine our preference.

c) It is possible that you tried Open Embrace or Nuevo but finally you
decided that your final preference is Close Embrace.

Many people I know belong to this group. They started dancing Open style,
some are able to do it with excellency but prefer to do close embrace. There
are many others that found open embrace frustrating and very demanding and
ended up finding that close embrace corresponds more with their age,
physical aptitude and spiritual needs.

Summary: Whatever your preference as to style is, tango offers you a wealth
and a life full of enjoyment and discovery.

As to Derik, I do not know dear Derik, if you failed to notice, but most
people recently accepted the fact as stated in my summary, they ceased to
argue about which style is superior, you are the only one left.

You may have a valid point: it is best to know many styles so that you can
adapt to every situation.

That is *your* preference, and I think that it is fine but... you should
accept the fact that most people are perfectly satisfied and happy dancing
only one style. A style that perfectly fulfils all their needs.

Best regards, Sergio

Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 02:08:46 +0000
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Always close embrace III
To: tango-l@mit.edu

At this point one may ask where can I dance open embrace or Nuevo Tango.

As you know many of us either in Argentina or abroad were taught 'Open
embrace' tango to discover that when we went to the milongas we could not
dance.

We were taught lots of non progressive figures and when we went dancing we
discovered that the dance was progressive, it was necessary to continuously
walk around the room, counter clock wise without disturbing anyone around us
and do a figure when space and circumstance allowed it.

At this point in the travel of tango discovery we started to learn and
practice 'close embrace'. Once we mastered this technique and form of
dancing we were finally able to dance in the milongas of B.A. :))

Some of us also continued exploring and discovering the possibilities of
'Open Style' tango.

Some of us discovered Nuevo Tango and felt it was exciting to learn a new
way of doing things.
We particularly liked the sorpresive element of many of its moves.

But it was obvious that if we arrived at a crowded milonga we could only
dance close embrace.

So we had to arrive early or stay late to be able to dance open, when more
space was available.

The mood (as Derik describes) changes after most people leave by 4 am and
there is more space to dance. The music changes, it could be more Pugliese,
more Piazzola, More Raul Garello, more alternative music, synthetized music,
etc. The dancers open the embrace and they start flying around the room in
a magical way, like in a ballet throwing ganchos, amagues, heel sacadas,
linear boleos, etc, without bothering each other. As I said it can look like
a choreographed ballet.

This last group will continue to take lessons in open and/or nuevo, go to
practicas and organize their own milongas.

Many milongas could occur at Sunderland in Villa Urquiza when there is room
to dance, or "La Marshall" (gay milonga) on wednesdays. Or certain areas of
certain milongas such as 'La viruta" upstairs.

Outside B.A. most people dance Salon open or close embrace, again depending
on the space available. I dance a lot in Mar del Plata where most people
like to dance salon open or close.

At "La Rada" they dance Nuevo Tango. Mar del Plata has a large group of
Nuevo Tango dancers.

But where you can dance open embrace or nuevo tango is in the USA. There is
plenty of space here
to dance in any way you wish. Milongas are not as crowded as in B.A. (of
course there are exceptions ). So if you prefer open embrace or Nuevo Tango
by all means continue to dance that way. after all you dance 50 weeks a year
in the USA and only two weeks in B.A.
I find absurd that people would dance close embrace because that is the way
people in B.A. are forced to do. Dance close embrace only if this is your
preference.

Summary: Most people dance salon close embrace. You have to look for the
place and the oportunity to do the other styles. Dance anyway you like.

The learning sequencial process for many of us was: Salon open embrace,
salon close embrace, milonguero close embrace, Nuevo tango, Canyengue.

For others has been: Salon close embrace (they remained there).

Salon milonguero (they remained there).

Salon open, close, Nuevo. (they remained
there).

Salon close, Canyengue. They are still learning
this last form.

Some are starting to amalgamate taking elements from different styles.

We all continue to learn.

I hope that this helps to clarify this matter. Remember that this is my
opinion according to my own experience but other people may have different
ideas and they are welcome.

Best regards, Sergio.

Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 19:43:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Always close embrace III and the change in the
music afterwards
To: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>, tango-l@mit.edu

Dear Sergio:

I agree with everything you have said below, and I
think you have also perhaps answered Zoltan's question
below as well, about the change in music later in the
evening. Thank you for your insight and perspective.

--- Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
wrote:

"The mood (as Derik describes) changes after most
people leave by 4 am and there is more space to dance.
The music changes, it could be more Pugliese,
more Piazzola, More Raul Garello, more alternative
music, synthetized music, etc."

Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com

Derik Rawson wrote:

PS- I can always tell when the "close embrace all the
time people" arrive in a room to dance. The music the
DJ plays suddenly becomes very predictable and cutsie
stuff... rather dull. When "the parents" go home,
then the music then changes again and becomes more
lively.

Derik, you've made me curious. Could you please give
us some examples of the boring close-embrace music you
do not like vs. the lively music you prefer? Give us
titles and orchestras, or mp3 samples if you
prefer.

-Zoltan


--- Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> At this point one may ask where can I dance open
> embrace or Nuevo Tango.
>
> As you know many of us either in Argentina or abroad
> were taught 'Open
> embrace' tango to discover that when we went to the
> milongas we could not
> dance.
>
> We were taught lots of non progressive figures and
> when we went dancing we
> discovered that the dance was progressive, it was
> necessary to continuously
> walk around the room, counter clock wise without
> disturbing anyone around us
> and do a figure when space and circumstance allowed
> it.
>
> At this point in the travel of tango discovery we
> started to learn and
> practice 'close embrace'. Once we mastered this
> technique and form of
> dancing we were finally able to dance in the
> milongas of B.A. :))
>
> Some of us also continued exploring and discovering
> the possibilities of
> 'Open Style' tango.
>
> Some of us discovered Nuevo Tango and felt it was
> exciting to learn a new
> way of doing things.
> We particularly liked the sorpresive element of many
> of its moves.
>
> But it was obvious that if we arrived at a crowded
> milonga we could only
> dance close embrace.
>
> So we had to arrive early or stay late to be able to
> dance open, when more
> space was available.
>
> The mood (as Derik describes) changes after most
> people leave by 4 am and
> there is more space to dance. The music changes, it
> could be more Pugliese,
> more Piazzola, More Raul Garello, more alternative
> music, synthetized music,
> etc. The dancers open the embrace and they start
> flying around the room in
> a magical way, like in a ballet throwing ganchos,
> amagues, heel sacadas,
> linear boleos, etc, without bothering each other. As
> I said it can look like
> a choreographed ballet.
>
> This last group will continue to take lessons in
> open and/or nuevo, go to
> practicas and organize their own milongas.
>
> Many milongas could occur at Sunderland in Villa
> Urquiza when there is room
> to dance, or "La Marshall" (gay milonga) on
> wednesdays. Or certain areas of
> certain milongas such as 'La viruta" upstairs.
>
> Outside B.A. most people dance Salon open or close
> embrace, again depending
> on the space available. I dance a lot in Mar del
> Plata where most people
> like to dance salon open or close.
>
> At "La Rada" they dance Nuevo Tango. Mar del Plata
> has a large group of
> Nuevo Tango dancers.
>
> But where you can dance open embrace or nuevo tango
> is in the USA. There is
> plenty of space here
> to dance in any way you wish. Milongas are not as
> crowded as in B.A. (of
> course there are exceptions ). So if you prefer
> open embrace or Nuevo Tango
> by all means continue to dance that way. after all
> you dance 50 weeks a year
> in the USA and only two weeks in B.A.
> I find absurd that people would dance close embrace
> because that is the way
> people in B.A. are forced to do. Dance close
> embrace only if this is your
> preference.
>
> Summary: Most people dance salon close embrace. You
> have to look for the
> place and the oportunity to do the other styles.
> Dance anyway you like.
>
> The learning sequencial process for many of us was:
> Salon open embrace,
> salon close embrace, milonguero close embrace, Nuevo
> tango, Canyengue.
>
> For others has been: Salon close embrace (they
> remained there).
>
> Salon milonguero (they
> remained there).
>
> Salon open, close,
> Nuevo. (they remained
> there).
>
> Salon close, Canyengue.
> They are still learning
> this last form.
>
> Some are starting to amalgamate taking elements from
> different styles.
>
> We all continue to learn.
>
> I hope that this helps to clarify this matter.
> Remember that this is my
> opinion according to my own experience but other
> people may have different
> ideas and they are welcome.
>
> Best regards, Sergio.
>
>
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