1189  Ballroom and Tango

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 09:41:20 EDT
From: Charles Roques <Crrtango@AOL.COM>
Subject: Ballroom and Tango

Stephen Brown wrote:

<<<I have come to believe believe that the Argentine tango and ballroom
communities are essentially separate/incompatible communities that attract
different people.
Very few ballroom dancers seem to make the transition to dancing Argentine
tango. More swing or salsa dancers seem to make the transition.>>>


There are a couple of other aspects of ballroom that have not been considered
and they are very important differences from tango. It is true that many
ballroom dancers do not dance tango well and I think there is a reason. The
biggest mistake is that they assume their knowledge of ballroom will give
them an advantage when learning but it is often a hindrance instead. But it
is not that the people are just different. It is something a little more
technical and concrete.

First, tango is danced by walking, into the floor. Few dances in the world
are walked. Most are "danced" in the sense that feet are lifted off the floor
and movement is often lifted and upward or at least with some spring or
"bounce" to it and that includes ballroom which has much lift and "lightness"
and even strives to create the illusion of it. The walk of tango is very
difficult to master because it seems to go counter to our notion of what is
dancing.

The other big difference is that tango almost never uses the upper body,
especially not in the way ballroom does. The upper part remains more or less
still and the waist and legs do the work. I'm not talking about leading
because even then there is no real movement other than a subtle turn or
indication; the arms and torso maintain their relation to each other and do
not change (or at least they shouldn't.) I think one of the biggest problems
when teaching is trying to get the students to stop all the extra movement.
Everyone wants to move too much because they associate that with dancing.
Tango requires a lot of restraint in the upper body.

The most important thing to remember is that every dance is different and
keeping them separate is the real key to mastering them.

Cheers,
Charles

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 10:23:41 -0400
From: John Gleeson <jgleeson@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Tango

My wife and I "studied" ballroom dancing for a year before we took up the Argentine Tango (not really by choice - we were conned
into it through false promises by a well-known but not-to-be-named national dancing chain!).

Several teachers (Daniel Trenner for one) picked up that we were Ballroom "trained" which intially got in the way of our learning.

Once we made the decision to completely drop the Ballroom approach (and any further lessons!) our progress in the Argentine Tango
became much faster.

The techniques used in dancing the AT are generally at cross-purposes to those employed in Ballroom dancing. I would especially
single out Posture; Weight (into the floor vs floating across the floor); Contact (with each other). You can almost feel the
differences just by listening/comparing real (authentic) Argentine Tango music to the "dumbed down" Ballroom Tango versions.

It is very difficult to compartmentalize the two differing techniques from each other - one will almost invariably get in the way
of the other.

John Gleeson
Nashua NH





----- Original Message -----

Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 9:41 AM
Subject: [TANGO-L] Ballroom and Tango

> Stephen Brown wrote:
>
> <<<I have come to believe believe that the Argentine tango and ballroom
> communities are essentially separate/incompatible communities that attract
> different people.
> Very few ballroom dancers seem to make the transition to dancing Argentine
> tango. More swing or salsa dancers seem to make the transition.>>>
>
>
> There are a couple of other aspects of ballroom that have not been considered
> and they are very important differences from tango. It is true that many
> ballroom dancers do not dance tango well and I think there is a reason. The
> biggest mistake is that they assume their knowledge of ballroom will give
> them an advantage when learning but it is often a hindrance instead. But it
> is not that the people are just different. It is something a little more
> technical and concrete.
>
> First, tango is danced by walking, into the floor. Few dances in the world
> are walked. Most are "danced" in the sense that feet are lifted off the floor
> and movement is often lifted and upward or at least with some spring or
> "bounce" to it and that includes ballroom which has much lift and "lightness"
> and even strives to create the illusion of it. The walk of tango is very
> difficult to master because it seems to go counter to our notion of what is
> dancing.
>
> The other big difference is that tango almost never uses the upper body,
> especially not in the way ballroom does. The upper part remains more or less
> still and the waist and legs do the work. I'm not talking about leading
> because even then there is no real movement other than a subtle turn or
> indication; the arms and torso maintain their relation to each other and do
> not change (or at least they shouldn't.) I think one of the biggest problems
> when teaching is trying to get the students to stop all the extra movement.
> Everyone wants to move too much because they associate that with dancing.
> Tango requires a lot of restraint in the upper body.
>
> The most important thing to remember is that every dance is different and
> keeping them separate is the real key to mastering them.
>
> Cheers,
> Charles
>

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 09:06:49 -0700
From: Barbara Garvey <barbara@TANGOBAR-PRODUCTIONS.COM>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Tango

Two further points about ballroom dancing and tango. The first is the
contrast between cultures. This affects not so much individual dancing but
the attempt of ballroom studios/teachers to engage in AT. Most, maybe all,
ballroom studios/teachers seem to guard their students from outside
influences, i.e. going to other studios or venues for classes or social
events. Whereas tango dancers, as well as salseros and swing dancers form
their own communities, often learning from a variety of teachers and going
to many places to dance. So if students study tango in a ballroom atmosphere
they are often discouraged, uninformed or misinformed about other tango
opportunities. This makes learning tango impossible for even talented and
motivated students.

Another difference, in terms of the dancer him/herself (and this is actually
not limited to ballroom dancers, although it seems to affect even former
ballroom dancers who quit all other dances except tango) is the dreaded
thousand step sindrome. The desire to learn and dance more and more
combinations. They don't get the walking nature of tango, the inherent
simplicity of the dance (note I didn't say "ease"), or the beauty of
establishing one's own style within the infinite possibilities. Maybe an
immersion into the tango culture in Buenos Aires could help, where the best
dancers walk and dance very simply about 80% of the time, inserting their
own special signature moves only a few times within a tango. Omar doesn't do
Fabian's steps; Tete doesn't do Eduardo's steps; Pupi doesn't do Lampazo's
steps; Orlando doesn't do Pepito Avellaneda's steps, etc.

Ballroom dancers have an advantage in facility and experience in learning
dance moves. But their challenges are first of all posture, groundedness and
arm position: then to understand the basic calmness and simplicity of tango,
then the beauty of finding one's own individuality within this simplicity.

Barbara

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 09:19:36 -0700
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Tango

I have a lot of good friends that Ballroom dance here in Portland. They would have a good chuckle about some parts of this thread. In general, they're more versatile in the number of dances they know, than the real Tango dancer (whatever that is), & the music we dance to has sound that is far superior to the Golden Age of Tango's sound. It can fill a ballroom in ways that the GA can't, until some rocket scientist sound engineer figures out how to get real stereo in there & somehow make the instruments sound like real instruments. Its beautiful music, with sound that is not. I have a friend that DJs a ballroom dance & he plays contemporary music from the 60s thru, um, whatever we call this decade. high-fidelity, real stereo all the way. I've also been to an Argentine Tango dance out of town & almost no Tango music was played for the first hour, hour & 1/2. I'm assuming to appeal to dancers from other communites, who are used to good sound & like music they are familiar with. Lots of Cha-Cha's, West Coast Sw
ing, 2 Step, Waltz & more... Rick

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 09:23:50 -0700
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Tango

One more point, the classes I took, were through Portland Community College, adult-education type of thing. It costs like $35 dollars or something for 6-8 weeks. Met lots of nice people & the instructor was wonderful... r

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 16:11:08 -0500
From: Korey Ireland <korey@KODAIR.COM>
Subject: Ballroom and Tango

This is an interesting topic, and a particualr challenge for me at the
moment. Maybe some of you can help?

For a few months now, I've been training the staff of a local ballroom
dance studio. They are very interested in including AT, and (much to
their credit) want to learn/teach it as its own idiom, instead of merely
learning some steps from a video tape and selling a package. The
challenges are two-fold:

1) The staff all have experience with a wide range of dances, they learn
"steps" quickly, but are having difficulty recreating thier dance
technique in a way that facilitates tango. (ref. the many comments here
already about frame, groundedness, relation of torsos to legs, and so
on). In this case, in interested in suggestions for helping to
diferentiate tango technique from what they've already learned (and
since I have no ballroom background, I limited to guessing what they've
learned by how they try to dance tango). I'm also looking for
suggestions to quiet the inner step-monger, and foster an enjoyment of
simple, connected movement. At present, I feel I have to bait them with
steps and then sorta trick them into the technique part, but I'm sure
there are better ways....

2) The cultural differences that have been mentioned by others, are very
much in play. The studio is a business that retains its clients by
keeping them very close to "home." While I respect the business needs,
and I certainly want their experience with tango to be positive and
profitable, I have a hard time with the closed door policy, and would
love to find some way of gently encouraging them to play with the rest
of the community. Has anyone out there been through a similar
situation? Do you have suggestions of what did, or didn't work? I
certainly don't expect them to have a totally different business
practice for Argentine Tango then for the other dances they offer, but
it would be so nice for all involved (teachers, students, and the rest
of the tango community) if they were involved in tango life outside of
the studio. It seems natural that the students will venture out into
the communtiy when/if they feel confident in their dancing, but I'd love
to get the teachers, and even to studio as a whole to exist peacefully
as part of the tango community, instead of trying to maintain a
seperate, private circle. These are some really warm and talented
people who would be a very welcome addition to tango at large...

Any suggestions are much appreciated.
Best Regards,
Korey Ireland
Kansas City, MO

Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 22:52:35 -0600
From: Nick <n2n@ZIANET.COM>
Subject: Re: Ballroom and Tango

I believe that there are two kinds of ballroom dancers and two kinds of
instructors--and one yields the other. Those that take lessons from
semi-qualified instructors at dance studios that try to turn out the most
patterns possible while concentrating on keeping the top looking stylish as
opposed to those lucky enough to find a studio where one can learn to dance
with the body connected to the floor at all times long before mastering a
repertoire of patterns and once that has been mastered then accomplish the
patterns you need. In the latter case there is a far higher level of
dedication required and I believe draws the high achievers--or perhaps the
obsessive compulsives ;).

Like Tango all ballroom dancing should have a connection to the floor. This
connection enables one to exactly fill up the music as opposed to excess
motion. There may be an appearance of floating in the smooth dances. But
if done properly there is always the connection. I learned to Rhumba with
bits of paper under my feet to maintain the connection to the floor--again
you have to really want to do this much like you have to want to learn
Argentine Tango.

I do not understand the comment about lift and spring although lift does
occur in the waltz but not spring. Though I am not as connected to the
floor in a smooth dance I do find similarities between some and Argentine
Tango. Take the first step of the foxtrot basic walking step (SSQQ) where
one moves forward left on the down beat, as the right foot folds and traces
the floor underneath and collects on the next beat before moving forward to
place. This collection in mid stride is also common to the Tango and it's
importance in foxtrot is to help keep one connected to the music.

The lack of connection to the floor may generate excess movement described
below and in my opinion just a hallmark of an yet-to-be-accomplished
ballroom dancer as opposed to something inherent to ballroom dancers in
general.

So in closing I find that ballroom and tango have at least two important
parts in common, connection to the floor and connection to the music where
the former is the mechanism by which you accomplish the latter.

Nicky Lawrence

> Stephen Brown wrote:
>
> <<<I have come to believe believe that the Argentine tango and ballroom
> communities are essentially separate/incompatible communities that attract
> different people.
> Very few ballroom dancers seem to make the transition to dancing Argentine
> tango. More swing or salsa dancers seem to make the transition.>>>
>
>
> First, tango is danced by walking, into the floor. Few dances in the world
> are walked. Most are "danced" in the sense that feet are lifted off the

floor

> and movement is often lifted and upward or at least with some spring or
> "bounce" to it and that includes ballroom which has much lift and

"lightness"

> and even strives to create the illusion of it. The walk of tango is very
> difficult to master because it seems to go counter to our notion of what

is

> dancing.
>
> The other big difference is that tango almost never uses the upper body,
> especially not in the way ballroom does. The upper part remains more or

less

> still and the waist and legs do the work. I'm not talking about leading
> because even then there is no real movement other than a subtle turn or
> indication; the arms and torso maintain their relation to each other and

do

> not change (or at least they shouldn't.) I think one of the biggest

problems

> when teaching is trying to get the students to stop all the extra

movement.

> Everyone wants to move too much because they associate that with dancing.
> Tango requires a lot of restraint in the upper body.
>
> The most important thing to remember is that every dance is different and
> keeping them separate is the real key to mastering them.
>
> Cheers,
> Charles
>

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 14:00:34 -0700
From: Tango Guy <tangomundo55@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Ballroom and Tango

Dear Listeros, Just as I was enjoying the various e-mails concerning Ballroom and Tango, they stopped! The relationship between Ballroom and Tango as well as the transition of ballroom dancing to tango is interesting to me since I have a ballroom background prior to starting tango. I have had many difficulties with my tango career (if it can be called that) but fortunately for me, I have fortitude and stamina OR maybe it is just an innate love of tango since childhood. I have many ballroom friends and I'd like to help them into tango. They would be a class act indeed. I've been told by several that have tried tango and quit: that it was like being a Phd college professor being sent back to kindergarten! A very ego deflating experience to say the least! One lady (Gold level, international rules) attended a Milonga and was surprised at the vast difference. She came away with the feeling she did not know how to dance anything. I can't get her to go back again. I, of course, realize she should have attended
classes and practicas first but she was of the mind of 'how hard can it be!? I'm a gold level dancer after-all!' Someday, I hope to teach tango and would like to concentrate on Ballroom dancers. I'd like to get more information on this subject. The tango community is seriously short-change without Ballroom dancers Any and all thoughts and advise would be more then welcome. Warm RegardsTango Guy