4401 tango learning concepts
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 23:03:43 -0600
From: "Bruno Romero" <romerob@telusplanet.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] tango learning concepts
To: <Tango-l@mit.edu>
In response to the following comment:
>Those who only learn step patterns often appear to show good depth of
composition and form, but find trouble with improvisation, navigation and
rhythm. Those who only learn small elements often have good navigational
and rhythm skills, but the dancing can lack a sense of composition, form,
style or depth of improvisation. It's just noodling. Those who only learn
a structural system understand a complex set of possibilities, but may lack
form and have trouble fitting the concepts to the available space or the
rhythm of the music.<
My 2 cents:
I think that form, structure, rhythm, improvisation, and navigation are
convenient parameters or concepts commonly used or referred to in teaching
argentine dance. These concepts are at odd with a student's own concept of
the dance. What dancers learn ultimately is the teacher's soul (personality
traits) explained in the way of form, structure, rhythm, navigation, etc.
I come to think that although necessary taking classes is analogous to
borrowing somebody else's soul to dance. Until the dancer finds a way to
display his soul (personality traits) on the dance floor, the dancer will
continue borrowing somebody else's soul to dance.
Cheers,
Bruno
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 15:09 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango learning concepts
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Bruno
> I think that form, structure, rhythm, improvisation, and navigation are
> convenient parameters or concepts commonly used or referred to in
> teaching argentine dance. These concepts are at odd with a student's own
> concept of the dance.
Indeed what goes by these words in classes are all to often just
fabrications; artifacts of the instructional model rather than aspects of
the dance itself.
> taking classes is analogous to borrowing somebody else's soul to dance.
> Until the dancer finds a way to display his soul (personality traits) on
> the dance floor, the dancer will continue borrowing somebody else's soul
> to dance.
Perhaps, but certainly until that dancer stops borrowing somebody else's
soul to dance, it will hinder him in finding the way to display his own.
Chris
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* [Tango-L] tango learning concepts
*From:* "Bruno Romero" <romerob@telusplanet.net>
*To:* <Tango-l@mit.edu>
*Date:* Thu, 15 Jun 2006 23:03:43 -0600
In response to the following comment:
>Those who only learn step patterns often appear to show good depth of
composition and form, but find trouble with improvisation, navigation and
rhythm. Those who only learn small elements often have good navigational
and rhythm skills, but the dancing can lack a sense of composition, form,
style or depth of improvisation. It's just noodling. Those who only learn
a structural system understand a complex set of possibilities, but may lack
form and have trouble fitting the concepts to the available space or the
rhythm of the music.<
My 2 cents:
I think that form, structure, rhythm, improvisation, and navigation are
convenient parameters or concepts commonly used or referred to in teaching
argentine dance. These concepts are at odd with a student's own concept of
the dance. What dancers learn ultimately is the teacher's soul (personality
traits) explained in the way of form, structure, rhythm, navigation, etc.
I come to think that although necessary taking classes is analogous to
borrowing somebody else's soul to dance. Until the dancer finds a way to
display his soul (personality traits) on the dance floor, the dancer will
continue borrowing somebody else's soul to dance.
Cheers,
Bruno
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 10:00:42 -0500
From: Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango learning concepts
Criticism through deconstructionism and an intuitive appeal to the
problems inherent in any structural analysis is nothing more than the use
of a facile formula. Used frequently and repetitively, such a formula
becomes not much more than a criticism of itself.
With best regards,
Steve
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 12:01:46 -0500
From: Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango learning concepts
Okay: Each of the three principal methods for teaching has limitations,
which can become limitations for the dancers who pursue learning through
only one of the pedagogies.
With persistent work, many people will break through the limitations of
the method by which they were taught tango, but I think it is much easier
to develop a well-rounded mastery by seeking all three forms of
instruction.
With best regards,
Steve
Btw: Let's not confuse principals with principles.
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 22:02 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango learning concepts
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Stephen wrote:
> there are three principal methods for LEARNING Argentine tango:
> step patterns, small elements, and structural systems.
then changed to:
> I will still argue that there are three principal methods for TEACHING
> Argentine tango: step patterns, small elements and structural systems.
then switched back to:
> all three of the principal ways for LEARNING to dance Argentine tango.
(My capitals.)
> P.S. It is tiresome to discuss ideas with people who wish to parse words
The reason people parse words Stephen is in order to understand what the
speaker is trying to say. Not that it is doing me much good in this case...
> There is a distinction between learning and teaching.
Aha! On that we agree.
Learning is essential to learners. Teaching is essential too - to teachers.
Only one is essential to dancing.
Chris
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 18:20:10 -0500
From: Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango learning concepts
Wow! Chris must be confused. There is very little resemblance between
what I wrote and his selective quotation of my remarks.
To clarify my thoughts for Chris and others who may be equally befuddled,
I will restate and amplify the idea once more.
(In doing so, I am ignoring the ensuing discussion which has been quite
informative.)
Most people pursue learning by studying with a teacher who uses a
pedagogy.
Pedagogies are limited by their nature, and in my opinion each of the
three major pedagogies used to teach tango in the United States are
extremely limited.
Because each of the styles of tango are linked to a particular pedagogical
approach to teaching in the United States, the profusion of poorly trained
dancers has created confusion between the characteristics of a style and
the limitations of the pedagogical approach to teaching that style. That
confusion may have resulted in the appearance that different styles of
tango are wildly incompatible and do not belong to the same generic dance
form.
Moreover, it lets the instructors and other advocates of each style
criticize the other styles for characteristics of the pedagogy rather than
the style itself. Dancers who have been taught by instructors using
narrowly conceived pedagogies and who have not learned very deeply on
their own may be misled into believing they are dancing a style that is
substantially different/better than the other styles. Dancers who have
been so misled may polarize into communities of ignorant,
self-perpetuating belief.
If students are unable to look beyond the one pedagogy by which they are
being taught, their learning will be relatively limited. Through their
own exploration, some dancers may overcome the limitations of the narrow
pedagogy by which they have been taught and actually learn to dance their
own tango. Others may might find it fruitful to pursue instruction from
those taking different pedagogical approaches to teaching tango, but doing
so in the United States is likely to mean taking classes from instructors
who teach different styles of tango.
Occasionally, you will find a wacky instructor who uses a widely conceived
pedagogical approach and is open to multiple styles of tango. Run like
hell to get away because such instruction is likely to prove totally
confusing or you will end up misunderstood yourself.
With best regards,
Steve
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 13:31:50 +1000
From: Gary Barnes <garybarn@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tango learning concepts
On 17/06/2006, at 7:02 AM, Chris, UK wrote:
>
> Learning is essential to learners. Teaching is essential too - to
> teachers.
> Only one is essential to dancing.
>
In an extreme reductive way, this may be true - of anything: dancing
tango, fishing, gymnastics, learning to speak, driving a car.
Nevertheless, for many human activities, many people seem to find
that at least some kinds of teaching help them to learn faster or
better. Teaching often seems to reduce the barriers to learning
enough that they start in a new field. Some people learn the same
things, without being taught. And often, people get taught, but do
not learn. Also often, people are not taught, and do not learn.
I don't know if this level of analysis is helping us figure out how
best to learn tango.
What I would like to hear is some more information about the
alternatives being suggested, mostly by Chris: learning without
teachers.
So, can someone give me some examples of how to go about learning
tango without teachers? And, how successful is it, and for what kind
of students? I have a lot of experience of people learning with
teachers being only a part of the picture; but I have no personal
experience of anyone who has learnt to tango without teachers at any
stage. How does it work? Is it generally applicable? For a new
community - ie one where no-one yet dances tango - how would they go
about it? This is not an academic question - there are many places
where people are saying 'we would love to learn to tango, but there
are no teachers here, so we cannot get started'. This other method
would seem to provide a solution.
Gary
