2576 What is NOT ok at a Milonga
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 08:25:15 -0700
From: David <pachelbels_canon_in_d_major@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: What is NOT ok at a Milonga
A (rough) summary of recent posts on what is NOT ok to
do at a Milonga. In no particular order, with some
poetic licence.
1) Do not teach. Ever! Even to a dear friend. Or
someone who asked you to. You see, even if it would
be ok with them (and it would never be ok with them),
you would interrupt the terribly fragile "tango
trance" of all nearby dancers.
Note that eventually you will be good enough to
"teach silently with your lead (follow?)" -- however
note item 5.
2) Similarly, to avoid interrupting other people, you
should refrain from all conversation. Possibly it
would be ok to quietly introduce yourself, but only
during the cortina. Possibly.
3) Avoid moving too slowly (thus impeding the flow of
traffic) or moving to quickly (and pushing into the
space of the couple before you). Also, don't change
"lanes" by going to either side. This could cause a
collision!
4) Don't try to meet people of the opposite sex at a
Milona! Nor at a class or practica or anything
related to Tango. Your bumbling and failure in this
relationship could turn them away from tango forever!
If you want to meet people at work, or at church, that
is ok. Never in Tango!
5) Note that you can only dance steps you know
extremely well at the Milonga. No experimentation or
practice -- that would interrupt the tango flow. Not
just for you and your partner, but for surrounding
dancers as well! If there are not many opportunities
to practice in your community, just be resigned to
always staying the same (far better than interrupting
the sacred "flow" of the dance).
All of the above are opinions held by the vast
majority of good tango dancers. People who don't
dance as dicted above are most definitely rude, and
most likely, very bad dancers. The collective tango
communities of the world will have to figure out
something to do with them. In the mean time, never
accept a dance with one.
Sincerely,
David (who believes in Live and Let Live).
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 10:16:33 -0700
From: Michael <michael@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
Subject: Re: What is NOT ok at a Milonga
Point-by-point rebuttal of your sarcasm:
David wrote:
> 1) Do not teach. Ever! Even to a dear friend. Or
> someone who asked you to. You see, even if it would
> be ok with them (and it would never be ok with them),
> you would interrupt the terribly fragile "tango
> trance" of all nearby dancers.
> Note that eventually you will be good enough to
> "teach silently with your lead (follow?)" -- however
> note item 5
1. Yes - it's called being considerate to the people around you. You're
not the only person at the dance. Teaching is for the practica - period.
> 2) Similarly, to avoid interrupting other people, you
> should refrain from all conversation. Possibly it
> would be ok to quietly introduce yourself, but only
> during the cortina. Possibly.
2. Nobody said you couldn't talk during the cortina - just don't yak
while you're dancing. If you want to chit-chat, get off the floor.
> 3) Avoid moving too slowly (thus impeding the flow of
> traffic) or moving to quickly (and pushing into the
> space of the couple before you). Also, don't change
> "lanes" by going to either side. This could cause a
> collision!
3. You've obviously never had anybody walk their follow's high heels
into your Achilles tendon, or bowl over your date by taking a salida
without looking to see if the coast is clear. See any of Evan Wallace's
posts on "Evan's Rule." See #1. And if you want to move slower go to the
inner lanes. And if you want to to stage tango, go rent yourself a stage.
> 4) Don't try to meet people of the opposite sex at a
> Milona! Nor at a class or practica or anything
> related to Tango. Your bumbling and failure in this
> relationship could turn them away from tango forever!
> If you want to meet people at work, or at church, that
> is ok. Never in Tango!
4. Nobody said you couldn't meet people or flirt. Just don't glom onto
every single woman who walks through the door and appoint yourself her
personal escort and teacher. And some women come to dance, not to be hit
on by every dweeb in the county.
> 5) Note that you can only dance steps you know
> extremely well at the Milonga. No experimentation or
> practice -- that would interrupt the tango flow. Not
> just for you and your partner, but for surrounding
> dancers as well! If there are not many opportunities
> to practice in your community, just be resigned to
> always staying the same (far better than interrupting
> the sacred "flow" of the dance).
5. Nobody said you couldn't experiment - just don't do the post mortem
in the middle of the ronda (see #1). And if there are not opportunities
to practice - do something about it! Run your own practica in your
living room, your garage, your apartment's community room, the basement
of the church, whatever. My partner and I practice on the linoleum in
her kitchen in our socks - makes it easier on her shins when I miss a
back sacada....
6. You forgot a few - not walking against line of dance, no high boleos,
no stage tango, yada yada. Heaven forbid anything interfere with your
precious personal right to do anything you want to, anytime you want to,
regardless of the consequences to the people around you.
> All of the above are opinions held by the vast
> majority of good tango dancers. People who don't
> dance as dicted above are most definitely rude, and
> most likely, very bad dancers. The collective tango
> communities of the world will have to figure out
> something to do with them. In the mean time, never
> accept a dance with one.
Oh puh-leeeze. Come down off the cross - it's been done before. These
rules evolved over the past *century* to provide the maximum enjoyment
for the maximum number of people - they've been road-tested by the
countless milongueros who have come before us, in whose shoes we are not
yet worthy to walk. Who are you or I to say different?
> Sincerely,
> David (who believes in Live and Let Live).
Which, in America, translates into "Nobody can tell me what to do!" Go
read Ken Wilbur's book, "Boomeritis."
Michael
Tango Bellingham
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:18:32 -0700
From: David <pachelbels_canon_in_d_major@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: What is NOT ok at a Milonga
Preface:
Probably I shouldn't have been sarcastic in my first
post. The reasonableness of some posts (Ex: Leonard
Kunkel, Sergio Vandekier) really was clearly the way
to go.
That said, I'll do a point by point rebuttal of the
rebuttal(s) ;)
> 1. Yes - it's called being considerate to the people
> around you. You're not the only person at the dance.
> Teaching is for the practica - period
I can think of (3) ways that one would be
inconsiderate of the people around them.
A: It is unpleasant for the person you are teaching.
Right now it seems to be generally accepted that this
isn't always the case. Some people ask for advice.
Some people are good at giving it.
B: It is "loud" or distracting. My response is that
it doesn't have to be so. Their is frequently a low
level of intermittant conversation on the dance floor
-- tango is a social dance. A little added (soft)
conversation won't change the volume.
C: It disrupts the line of dance. My response is
that firstly, you only need to stop for a few seconds
at a time to highlight any one place. Furthermore,
refering to point 3, we can go towards the center
towards a place where the pace of this
teaching/dancing is in tune with the line of dance.
(Which I think is a more dynamic thing than many seem
to, but that is a topic for a different post).
Note: It is easier to understand your objections if
they are more specific than "it's inconsiderate". How
is it inconsiderate?
> 2. Nobody said you couldn't talk during the cortina
-> just don't yak while you're dancing. If you want to
> chit-chat, get off the floor.
I disagree. You shouldn't talk loudly, and probably
most dances are better if you don't talk much, but
talking shouldn't be a "tango no-no". I would argue
that people go to Milongas for "Social Dance". Yes,
dancing is 1/2 of the 'point', but the 'Social' is the
other 1/2. Talking is part of being social -- even on
the dance floor. To say that one should never talk
while dancing would, IMO, put a *damper* on the
Milonga. Just keep it soft.
> 3. You've obviously never had anybody walk their
> follow's high heels into your Achilles tendon, or
> bowl over your date by taking a salida
> without looking to see if the coast is clear. See
> any of Evan Wallace's posts on "Evan's Rule." See
> #1. And if you want to move slower go to
> the inner lanes. And if you want to to stage tango,
> go rent yourself a stage.
Of course I've been hit at Milongas ... we all have.
And it is a deal -- I'll go slower on the inner lane,
faster on the outer. I'll do my stage Tango in the
middle. That should make us all happy!
> 4. Nobody said you couldn't meet people or flirt.
> Just don't glom onto every single woman who walks
> through the door and appoint yourself her
> personal escort and teacher. And some women come to
> dance, not to be hit on by every dweeb in the
county.
I'm glad that flirting is within the realm of the
acceptable.
I take offence at the implication I'm a "dweeb".
I do, however, agree that there is "ok" pursuit, and
"not ok" pursuit. Let us say that if she isn't
interested, one should take the hint.
> 5. Nobody said you couldn't experiment - just don't
> do the post mortem in the middle of the ronda (see
> #1).
Let us instead say (for now) that only experiment in
line of dance if you won't interphere with it too
much. (As stated above, the line of dance
conversation is a separate thing).
> 6. You forgot a few - not walking against line of
> dance, no high boleos, no stage tango, yada yada.
> Heaven forbid anything interfere with your
> precious personal right to do anything you want to,
> anytime you want to, regardless of the consequences
> to the people around you.
No harm walking against line of dance if no one is
behind you (just look...).
No harm with high boleos or stage tango if you aren't
at risk of hitting someone, or you are towards the
middle of the floor.
No harm with doing what I want to *when it doesn't
hurt other people*.
> Oh puh-leeeze. Come down off the cross - it's been
> done before. These rules evolved over the past
> *century* to provide the maximum enjoyment for the
> maximum number of people - they've been road-tested
> by the countless milongueros who have come before
> us, in whose shoes we are not yet worthy to walk.
> Who are you or I to say different?
There was a story of a mother who always cut off the
sides of ham before cooking it in her pot. The
daughter asked why? The mother said "we've always
done it that way, I don't really know". The daughter
asked the grandmother to the same reply. The daughter
asked the great-grandmother, who said "because the pan
was too small".
These rules evolved over a century -- yes, but in
Argentina. A Latin country with a radically different
rules about how one interacts with the opposite sex,
different rules about "face", etc.
Furthermore, just because these rules are old and
road-tested, doesn't mean that we still shouldn't
examine them. Should we still think that the sun
revolves around the earth just because many great men
thought so for many centures? I would argue that
opinions, dissent, and discussion are an important
part of the evolution of all things (not just tango).
> > David (who believes in Live and Let Live).
>
> Which, in America, translates into "Nobody can tell
> me what to do!" Go read Ken Wilbur's
> book, "Boomeritis."
Actually, I'm 24. *Shrugs*. It isn't that there is
no point to rules, but rather that I tend to think
there are far too many, which serve little purpose,
and sometimes cause great harm. Similarly with
interphering in other people's (or country's) business
(without their consent).
David
P.S. I suspect that there will be some replies. I'll
respond to those off the list, as I suspect many (not
me) will start to find this conversation tedious (very
understandably).
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 22:15:57 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: What is NOT ok at a Milonga
David the pachelbels_canon_in_d_major rebutted rebuttal thus:
Rebuttal:
>2. Nobody said you couldn't talk during the cortina -> just don't yak while
>you're dancing. If you want to chit-chat, get off the floor.
Rebuttal rebuttal:
I disagree. You shouldn't talk loudly, and probably most dances are better
if you don't talk much, but talking shouldn't be a "tango no-no". I would
argue that people go to Milongas for "Social Dance". Yes, dancing is 1/2 of
the 'point', but the 'Social' is the other 1/2. Talking is part of being
social -- even on the dance floor. To say that one should never talk while
dancing would, IMO, put a *damper* on the Milonga. Just keep it soft.
Lol. Some day you might be able to go beyond words. Obviously this is not an
obvious skill and I have a feeling you will need a bit of luck along the way
to acquire it.
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com - Next "Tango in the Park" milonga in Manitou Springs
is on August 21
>From: David <pachelbels_canon_in_d_major@YAHOO.COM>
>Reply-To: David <pachelbels_canon_in_d_major@YAHOO.COM>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] What is NOT ok at a Milonga
>Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 12:18:32 -0700
>
>Preface:
>
>Probably I shouldn't have been sarcastic in my first
>post. The reasonableness of some posts (Ex: Leonard
>Kunkel, Sergio Vandekier) really was clearly the way
>to go.
>
>That said, I'll do a point by point rebuttal of the
>rebuttal(s) ;)
>
> > 1. Yes - it's called being considerate to the people
>
> > around you. You're not the only person at the dance.
>
> > Teaching is for the practica - period
>
>I can think of (3) ways that one would be
>inconsiderate of the people around them.
>
>A: It is unpleasant for the person you are teaching.
>Right now it seems to be generally accepted that this
>isn't always the case. Some people ask for advice.
>Some people are good at giving it.
>
>B: It is "loud" or distracting. My response is that
>it doesn't have to be so. Their is frequently a low
>level of intermittant conversation on the dance floor
>-- tango is a social dance. A little added (soft)
>conversation won't change the volume.
>
>C: It disrupts the line of dance. My response is
>that firstly, you only need to stop for a few seconds
>at a time to highlight any one place. Furthermore,
>refering to point 3, we can go towards the center
>towards a place where the pace of this
>teaching/dancing is in tune with the line of dance.
>(Which I think is a more dynamic thing than many seem
>to, but that is a topic for a different post).
>
>Note: It is easier to understand your objections if
>they are more specific than "it's inconsiderate". How
>is it inconsiderate?
>
> > 2. Nobody said you couldn't talk during the cortina
>-> just don't yak while you're dancing. If you want to
>
> > chit-chat, get off the floor.
>
>I disagree. You shouldn't talk loudly, and probably
>most dances are better if you don't talk much, but
>talking shouldn't be a "tango no-no". I would argue
>that people go to Milongas for "Social Dance". Yes,
>dancing is 1/2 of the 'point', but the 'Social' is the
>other 1/2. Talking is part of being social -- even on
>the dance floor. To say that one should never talk
>while dancing would, IMO, put a *damper* on the
>Milonga. Just keep it soft.
>
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:20:27 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: What is NOT ok at a Milonga
David wrote:
>>5) Note that you can only dance steps you know
>>extremely well at the Milonga. No experimentation or
>>practice -- that would interrupt the tango flow.
Sergio clarified:
>You may experiment as long as you do not disturb your partner
>or the other dancers.
The difference in these two pieces of advice is that David is implicitly
predicting that dancing poorly known steps will disturb one's partner
and/or the other dancers.
For those who dance memorized step patterns, I would lean toward David's
advice. But how well is extremely well? For someone dancing a step
pattern and attempting to blend into the flow of traffic, knowledge of the
pattern should be so good that an escape can be found from the pattern at
any point, so that the attempt to use the step pattern will not disturb
one's partner or the other dancers.
For those who approach Argentine tango as an improvisational dance made of
small elements, I would lean toward Sergio's advice. Experimentation and
conforming to the flow of the ronda is exactly what makes dancing at a
milonga so much fun.
Personally, I like dancing best when it is so crowded that the ronda tells
me what movements are possible and the couples are dancing with everyone
else as well as in their own world. At times like this, I find the dance
expresses itself through my partner and me rather than other way around.
With best regards,
Steve
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2004 16:12:10 -0600
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: What is NOT ok at a Milonga
Movements that are possible in a Milonga for tango salon?
Could we say that regardless of whether you dance memorized or improvised
steps that the movements possible should be only those allowed by the space
within the embrace?
I believe this was one of the requirements at the 2nd Tango Salon
Competition in Buenos Aires, Jan - Mar, 2004
Bruno
