2563 What should a follower do when...?
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:18:50 -0400
From: Mary Ellen Tormey <metormey@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: What should a follower do when...?
Hi,
I am new and have so much to learn it is nearly overwhelming, which is why I
have joined the list. Part of what interests me in addition to dancing is
the learning process and the culture of tango as a dance and a form of
communication.
I have only had a few lessons in a group and privately, and with excellent
teachers who are patient with me, so when asked to dance I have let the lead
know that I am a new beginner (three weeks!) but I'm game if he is. I also
don't expect that I will have to keep giving that warning forever, but many
leads have been respectful of that and then gauged things accordingly. They
are happy to dance and aren't frustrated that you can't get "fancy." I felt
this was better than sitting there and declining because I am not good
enough. Practice is the only way to learn...
But, I suppose it had to happen sooner or later. Last evening at a
post-practica venue where everyone goes out for coffee and a little informal
dancing, a lead asked me to dance, and told me, "Oh ,don't worry about being
new--you can't make mistakes in tango." He then proceded to stop me after
every second or third step, to put my arms in a more appropriate position or
say, "No, no like this--put your foot here", "Stop after this step and don't
wiggle or move" or "You are too stiff, you need to relax ". This went on
throughout. By the time the music ended I looked like a cross between a
marionette, a wind-up doll and a robot.
I toughed it out last night though hoping it would get better and that was
the longest 3 minutes of my life. Had there been opportunities to dance
again after I sat down or some way to distract myself I might have stayed
but there were no other people to dance with and sitting there became
increasingly uncomfortable...
So, before I let this be some hugely defining moment, what is the best
approach for handling a lead who does this (in addition to declining that
lead's invitation in the future, and growing a thicker hide)? I've had
other things happen with leads that were a minor version of this but this
went over the top!
Thank you for your assistance,
Mary Ellen
Mary Ellen Tormey
metormey@comcast.net
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:50:25 +0000
From: Rick Jones <rwjones2001@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: What should a follower do when...?
For what it's worth, my wife's observations and comments -- which have been
fully supported by female friends in our tango circle -- have been that it
is specifically those guys who are the worst dancers that spend the most
time correcting their partners.
That doesn't answer your question, but hopefully it will put things in a
better perspective.
Rick Jones
Washington DC
Hi,
I am new and have so much to learn it is nearly overwhelming, which is why I
have joined the list. Part of what interests me in addition to dancing is
the learning process and the culture of tango as a dance and a form of
communication.
I have only had a few lessons in a group and privately, and with excellent
teachers who are patient with me, so when asked to dance I have let the lead
know that I am a new beginner (three weeks!) but I'm game if he is. I also
don't expect that I will have to keep giving that warning forever, but many
leads have been respectful of that and then gauged things accordingly. They
are happy to dance and aren't frustrated that you can't get "fancy." I felt
this was better than sitting there and declining because I am not good
enough. Practice is the only way to learn...
But, I suppose it had to happen sooner or later. Last evening at a
post-practica venue where everyone goes out for coffee and a little informal
dancing, a lead asked me to dance, and told me, "Oh ,don't worry about being
new--you can't make mistakes in tango." He then proceded to stop me after
every second or third step, to put my arms in a more appropriate position or
say, "No, no like this--put your foot here", "Stop after this step and don't
wiggle or move" or "You are too stiff, you need to relax ". This went on
throughout. By the time the music ended I looked like a cross between a
marionette, a wind-up doll and a robot.
I toughed it out last night though hoping it would get better and that was
the longest 3 minutes of my life. Had there been opportunities to dance
again after I sat down or some way to distract myself I might have stayed
but there were no other people to dance with and sitting there became
increasingly uncomfortable...
So, before I let this be some hugely defining moment, what is the best
approach for handling a lead who does this (in addition to declining that
lead's invitation in the future, and growing a thicker hide)? I've had
other things happen with leads that were a minor version of this but this
went over the top!
Thank you for your assistance,
Mary Ellen
Mary Ellen Tormey
metormey@comcast.net
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:59:25 EDT
From: Mallpasso@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: What should a follower do when...?
The leader was rude to teach you during a milonga. While it's usually okay
to teach during a practica you were dancing at an informal milonga and it's NOT
good manners to instruct during a milonga.
Observe this person during a milonga and judge whether he's a good lead - ask
other women for their opinion of his dancing. They may tell you he's a lousy
leader so next time decline to dance with him.
El Bandito de Tango
In a message dated 7/21/2004 08:33:13 Pacific Standard Time,
metormey@COMCAST.NET writes:
Hi,
I am new and have so much to learn it is nearly overwhelming, which is why I
have joined the list. Part of what interests me in addition to dancing is
the learning process and the culture of tango as a dance and a form of
communication.
I have only had a few lessons in a group and privately, and with excellent
teachers who are patient with me, so when asked to dance I have let the lead
know that I am a new beginner (three weeks!) but I'm game if he is. I also
don't expect that I will have to keep giving that warning forever, but many
leads have been respectful of that and then gauged things accordingly. They
are happy to dance and aren't frustrated that you can't get "fancy." I felt
this was better than sitting there and declining because I am not good
enough. Practice is the only way to learn...
But, I suppose it had to happen sooner or later. Last evening at a
post-practica venue where everyone goes out for coffee and a little informal
dancing, a lead asked me to dance, and told me, "Oh ,don't worry about being
new--you can't make mistakes in tango." He then proceded to stop me after
every second or third step, to put my arms in a more appropriate position or
say, "No, no like this--put your foot here", "Stop after this step and don't
wiggle or move" or "You are too stiff, you need to relax ". This went on
throughout. By the time the music ended I looked like a cross between a
marionette, a wind-up doll and a robot.
I toughed it out last night though hoping it would get better and that was
the longest 3 minutes of my life. Had there been opportunities to dance
again after I sat down or some way to distract myself I might have stayed
but there were no other people to dance with and sitting there became
increasingly uncomfortable...
So, before I let this be some hugely defining moment, what is the best
approach for handling a lead who does this (in addition to declining that
lead's invitation in the future, and growing a thicker hide)? I've had
other things happen with leads that were a minor version of this but this
went over the top!
Thank you for your assistance,
Mary Ellen
Mary Ellen Tormey
metormey@comcast.net
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:01:47 -0400
From: John Gleeson <john.gleeson@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Re: What should a follower do when...?
Mary Ellen,
1. Tell the "bad leader" that you didn't come to the Milonga for lessons;
you find his approach insulting; then walk off the floor (even in the middle
of the dance - you don't have to put up with this)
2. Don't dance with him again
3. Be patient - for every jerk out there there are 10 (well, maybe 5 :<)
who willl make the learning/dancing experience enjoyable
4. Don't give up - once you become accomplished, you will look
back on this - laugh - and say that it was all worth the pain - honest!
Good luck,
John G.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2004 11:18 AM
Subject: [TANGO-L] What should a follower do when...?
>
> So, before I let this be some hugely defining moment, what is the best
> approach for handling a lead who does this (in addition to declining that
> lead's invitation in the future, and growing a thicker hide)? I've had
> other things happen with leads that were a minor version of this but this
> went over the top!
>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:14:14 -0700
From: Michael <michael@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
Subject: Re: What should a follower do when...?
Mary Ellen Tormey wrote:
>
> But, I suppose it had to happen sooner or later. Last evening at a
> post-practica venue where everyone goes out for coffee and a little informal
> dancing, a lead asked me to dance, and told me, "Oh ,don't worry about being
> new--you can't make mistakes in tango." He then proceded to stop me after
> every second or third step, to put my arms in a more appropriate position or
> say, "No, no like this--put your foot here", "Stop after this step and don't
> wiggle or move" or "You are too stiff, you need to relax ". This went on
> throughout. By the time the music ended I looked like a cross between a
> marionette, a wind-up doll and a robot.
>
> I toughed it out last night though hoping it would get better and that was
> the longest 3 minutes of my life. Had there been opportunities to dance
> again after I sat down or some way to distract myself I might have stayed
> but there were no other people to dance with and sitting there became
> increasingly uncomfortable...
>
> So, before I let this be some hugely defining moment, what is the best
> approach for handling a lead who does this (in addition to declining that
> lead's invitation in the future, and growing a thicker hide)? I've had
> other things happen with leads that were a minor version of this but this
> went over the top!
>
> Thank you for your assistance,
>
> Mary Ellen
>
> Mary Ellen Tormey
> metormey@comcast.net
>
You say, in this order:
1. "Please, could we just dance?"
If this does not produce the desired change in behavior, or he starts
arguing with you about it, stop dancing and say:
2. "Thank you very much."
...and then turn on your heel and walk off, leaving the schmuck standing
there. And go complain to the milonga organizer for letting that kind of
behavior go unchallenged!
What he did was *hideously* rude! There is absolutely NO reason to
tolerate that kind of insensitive, loutish, arrogant behavior!! Never,
NEVER dance with him again, tell all your friends, make sure THEY never
dance with him, tell the milonga organizer, tell his teacher, etc.
Women have to put a stop to this nonsense by not dancing with the
perpetrators!
Michael
Tango Bellingham
www.tangobellingham.com
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 01:21:31 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: What should a follower do when...?
> So, before I let this be some hugely defining moment, what is the best
> approach for handling a lead who does this (in addition to declining that
> lead's invitation in the future, and growing a thicker hide)? I've had
> other things happen with leads that were a minor version of this but this
> went over the top!
>
Ok, Mary, my advice, if you want to get out of this the elegant way:
1) before you accept any man's invitation, watch the dance floor for a
while, and make up your mind on who you think is worth dancing with. Then
only dance with those.
2) If you happen to end up with an unpleasant leader still, gracefully put
up with him for one song. As soon as the music stops, let go of him, smile
sweetly (and with subtle irony), and say:"Thank you." Then simply walk back
to your seat, and if you ever see him approaching you again, look the other
way. If he still asks you to dance, decline politely.
That's it.
By the way, saying "thank you" after one song, esp. if the woman does so, is
a clear message that you did not enjoy the dance. Even uninvolved spectators
may take notice of that point. Leave him wondering, and if he asks you, you
can always explain, what he should practise more.
Astrid's 2 cents
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:52:25 -0400
From: Miamidances@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: What should a follower do when...?
>For what it's worth, my wife's observations and comments -- >which have been fully supported by female friends in our >tango circle -- have been that it is specifically those guys >who are the worst dancers that spend the most time correcting >their partners.
Fortunately, I have a separate room where Ib ve been able to get the offenders to leave the milonga floor, and do their teaching in the back room. This is the area where we serve our coffee and refreshments. Yes we can see them thru the glass windows. For some reason it is only the bad dancers that take beginners, or victims to inflict their stupidly upon them.
Tango Forever
Randy
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:11:15 -0700
From: Michael <michael@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
Subject: Re: What should a follower do when...?
Miamidances@AOL.COM wrote:
>>For what it's worth, my wife's observations and comments -- >which have been fully supported by female friends in our >tango circle -- have been that it is specifically those guys >who are the worst dancers that spend the most time correcting >their partners.
>
>
>
> Fortunately, I have a separate room where Ib ve been able to get the offenders to leave the milonga floor, and do their teaching in the back room. This is the area where we serve our coffee and refreshments. Yes we can see them thru the glass windows. For some reason it is only the bad dancers that take beginners, or victims to inflict their stupidly upon them.
>
> Tango Forever
>
> Randy
>
But why do you tolerate this behavior at all? Giving them a separate
room is just legitimizing their behavior - giving it official sanction.
Why not just tell them that there will be no teaching at the milonga,
and if they don't like it, there's the door.
Michael
Tango Bellingham
www.tangobellingham.com
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:17:38 -0500
From: Gibson Batch <gibsonbatch@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: What should a follower do when...?
It must be terrible to be asked by a poor lead. But this happens to leaders
too.
I have walked off the floor more than once with a follower who I was having
violent reactions of miscommunications with a teacher I didn't know. I
excused myself, muttering 'this isn't working' and walked after 15 seconds
of our first dance. Yes, this is a terrible thing, and it hurts both
parties.
If the dance didn't feel good to you, you can be assured it didn't feel good
to him either.
So if it feels terrible, walk away - after 15 seconds into the dance if you
have to - and let him think a few minutes about why you did so. If he asks
why, tell him point blank. I agree with other's comments completely (for
once).
But just be certain this is not about you or your dancing. It is about your
partner. This is so obvious to all but the victim. This wasn't clear to me
until months later. Have a trusted dancer spend a few dances with you to
rebuild your confidence. Then avoid the other person as much as possible.
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:28:17 -0700
From: Tango Luna <tangoluna@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: What should a follower do when...?
Dear Mary Ellen,
Welcome to tango. By the way, I concur wholeheartedly with the replies
you've gotten. Here's my 2 cents, too. It's seems there's at least one
rude I-have-to-teach-beginners-in-order-to feel-important chump in every
city. Take heart, most of the leaders are not like that. Why does such
behavior continue when both men and women decry it as rude, unacceptable
behavior? These guys (and usually it's guys) continue to do this even when
it's explained to them that it makes women feel very bad. They still don't
get the hint. Some guys feel powerful and adequate when they make a woman
feel inadequate. If he asks you to dance, just say "no thank you." He's
probably a lousy lead anyway.
Speaking of leads. There's an Argentine teacher here in the Bay Area who is
such a good lead that he can take a beginner, yes, even a first-time dancer,
and make her look good. He's in tango posture, concentrated, and moving her
to his lead. No stopping, pausing, even flow. If she steps incorrectly, he
adjusts and continues to dance without missing a beat. Waching him, he gives
the impression that she made no mistakes. He's amazing. I've seen
beginners after dancing with him go off the floor as if in a daze, smiling,
having just gone through a very pleasureable experience. He never teaches
while dancing. He can't. He's too busy dancing WITH HER. I think leading
that way takes considerable skill. A skill, the guy you describe, does not
have.
Keep dancing, Pia
>From: Mary Ellen Tormey <metormey@COMCAST.NET>
>Reply-To: Mary Ellen Tormey <metormey@COMCAST.NET>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: [TANGO-L] What should a follower do when...?
>Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:18:50 -0400
>
>Hi,
>
>I am new and have so much to learn it is nearly overwhelming, which is why
>I
>have joined the list. Part of what interests me in addition to dancing is
>the learning process and the culture of tango as a dance and a form of
>communication.
>
>I have only had a few lessons in a group and privately, and with excellent
>teachers who are patient with me, so when asked to dance I have let the
>lead
>know that I am a new beginner (three weeks!) but I'm game if he is. I also
>don't expect that I will have to keep giving that warning forever, but many
>leads have been respectful of that and then gauged things accordingly.
>They
>are happy to dance and aren't frustrated that you can't get "fancy." I
>felt
>this was better than sitting there and declining because I am not good
>enough. Practice is the only way to learn...
>
>But, I suppose it had to happen sooner or later. Last evening at a
>post-practica venue where everyone goes out for coffee and a little
>informal
>dancing, a lead asked me to dance, and told me, "Oh ,don't worry about
>being
>new--you can't make mistakes in tango." He then proceded to stop me after
>every second or third step, to put my arms in a more appropriate position
>or
>say, "No, no like this--put your foot here", "Stop after this step and
>don't
>wiggle or move" or "You are too stiff, you need to relax ". This went on
>throughout. By the time the music ended I looked like a cross between a
>marionette, a wind-up doll and a robot.
>
>I toughed it out last night though hoping it would get better and that was
>the longest 3 minutes of my life. Had there been opportunities to dance
>again after I sat down or some way to distract myself I might have stayed
>but there were no other people to dance with and sitting there became
>increasingly uncomfortable...
>
>So, before I let this be some hugely defining moment, what is the best
>approach for handling a lead who does this (in addition to declining that
>lead's invitation in the future, and growing a thicker hide)? I've had
>other things happen with leads that were a minor version of this but this
>went over the top!
>
>Thank you for your assistance,
>
>Mary Ellen
>
>Mary Ellen Tormey
>metormey@comcast.net
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 11:20:53 -0700
From: Razor Girl <dilettante666@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: What should a follower do when...?
--- Mary Ellen Tormey <metormey@COMCAST.NET> wrote:
> They are happy to dance and aren't frustrated that
> you can't get "fancy." I felt
> this was better than sitting there and declining
> because I am not good enough. Practice is the only
> way to learn...
Keep that attitude! You are right. Don't worry about
being fancy anyway, tango is not about that. Focus on
aligning yourself with your partner and really letting
yourself relax and feel him.
> coffee and a little informal
> dancing, a lead asked me to dance, and told me, "Oh
> ,don't worry about being
> new--you can't make mistakes in tango."
After he went on to correct you, did you question his
earlier remark? I would have teased him by saying
"Hey, I thought you said there are no mistakes in
tango!"
> throughout. By the time the music ended I looked
> like a cross between a
> marionette, a wind-up doll and a robot.
Oh, I have soooo been there. Okay, heres some advice
that may help. You are learning something new and so
you don't know right from wrong and it sounds like you
are keeping an open mind which is good so I wouldn't
be too judgemental of this guy. The problem is that
some people get so excited about tango they will take
every opportunity to "help" you. What they fail to
realize is that treating you like this guy did just
makes you feel like crap.
There are going to be people like this around you. As
you dance longer you can figure out who they are and
decide not to dance with them.
Things you can do now to make yourself less of a
target for this type of behavior.
1. Assume a posture that demands respect. You don't
want to make yourself seem bitchy or aloof, but stand
up tall, be proud of yourself, own your body.
2. Trust yourself. You've been taking lessons and
you've been watching other women dance. Relax and
trust your body, don't worry too much about what you
look like, embrace the guys warmly, don't worry if you
don't know what your are doing, just go with it and
fake it if you have to.
3. Visualize yourself dancing well. As in all things,
visualizing it helps. It takes time to develop the
skills you are learning but focus on imagining
yourself moving in a beautiful way, it helps.
4. A leader can tell right away if you are experienced
or not. It's likely that if he asks you to dance he's
already been watching you and knows what your skill
level is. So don't worry about feeling like you need
to warn them to take it easy on you. Some guys
mistake you telling them you are a beginner for an
invitation to give you advice.
5. Keep your fun attitude. If a guys starts spewing a
bunch of advice you didn't request its his problem and
you are not required to put up with it. Feel free to
ignore him, or tell him you are just there to have
fun. His job is to make you feel good. The guys that
don't realize that aren't worth your time.
Mary Ellen, we all go through this stuff. I like to
look at every situation as an opportunity. If you are
feeling like a wallflower, try making friends with
some women around you. Be open minded. Ask those
women who they enjoy dancing with. I have met so many
interesting, creative and passionate people through
tango. Sometimes it feels hard to break into "the
circle" at first, but don't let them do that to you.
Ignore the circle and make friends with everyone, the
social interaction can be just as rewarding as the
dancing and by getting to know people you will find
they will warm up to you.
Regards,
Rose
Portland, OR
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:09:23 -0400
From: Miamidances@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: What should a follower do when...?
>But why do you tolerate this behavior at all? Giving them a >separate room is just legitimizing their behavior - giving it >official sanction. Why not just tell them that there will be >no teaching at the milonga, and if they don't like it, >there's the door.
There are circumstances, not the same as Mary Ellens, where I feel it is appropriate to show someone the basic. Weve had a couple of men that did the Mary Ellen situation, looking for someone to teach. Offering without the request of the new person, to teach them, the type of dancer that should be taking classes, not trying to give them. I did tell them not to go looking for people to teach.
I have walk-ins that will ask someone to show them the basic. I have two men that like to bring new women to the dance. Teach them the basic and encourage the girls to join the regular classes, and several have. IMO, there can be situations where it is appropriate in a separate room to show the basic. I didnb t mean to sound like we are giving official sanction to bad behavior. Bad behavior, bad breath and bad body odors are issues that organizers MUST address at classes and Milongas. It can be done with taste, but it is never easy or fun.
Tango Forever
Randy
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:52:41 -0700
From: Michael <michael@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
Subject: Re: What to do with walk-ins? (was What should a follower do when...?)
Miamidances@AOL.COM wrote:
>>But why do you tolerate this behavior at all? Giving them a >separate room is just legitimizing their behavior - giving it >official sanction. Why not just tell them that there will be >no teaching at the milonga, and if they don't like it, >there's the door.
>
>
> There are circumstances, not the same as Mary Ellens, where I feel it is appropriate to show someone the basic. Weve had a couple of men that did the Mary Ellen situation, looking for someone to teach. Offering without the request of the new person, to teach them, the type of dancer that should be taking classes, not trying to give them. I did tell them not to go looking for people to teach.
>
> I have walk-ins that will ask someone to show them the basic. I have two men that like to bring new women to the dance. Teach them the basic and encourage the girls to join the regular classes, and several have. IMO, there can be situations where it is appropriate in a separate room to show the basic. I didnb t mean to sound like we are giving official sanction to bad behavior. Bad behavior, bad breath and bad body odors are issues that organizers MUST address at classes and Milongas. It can be done with taste, but it is never easy or fun.
>
> Tango Forever
>
> Randy
>
>show them the basic
Oh dear. Yet another can of worms - surely not the D8CB. *shudder*. I
tell walk-ins (no experience whatsoever) that there is no "basic", other
than it's a walking dance, and then we will sit with them while we watch
other people and give them a quick & dirty explanation of what's going
on, maybe a little history and culture, when our classes are, etc. On no
account do I just let them loose on the dance floor unless they've been
to our class and been introduced to the etiquette and basic floorcraft.
It's just not fair to the other dancers....
And as for people bringing their dates to a milonga with no outside
preparation - if they start teaching, one polite warning and then adios,
muchacho.
Michael
Tango Bellingham
www.tangobellingham.com
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 19:24:13 -0400
From: Miamidances@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: What to do with walk-ins? (was What should a follower do when...?)
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Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:54:18 +1000
From: Gary Barnes <garybarn@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: What should a follower do when...?
it seems that around 22/07/04 3:17 AM, Gibson Batch at
gibsonbatch@HOTMAIL.COM wrote (among other things):
> If the dance didn't feel good to you, you can be assured it didn't feel good
> to him either.
Sorry, but this is completely untrue.
I have spoken to quite a few women who find particular partners unenjoyable,
through unpleasant and right up to obnoxious. I have spoken to these guys,
and some of them are completely oblivious - some are uncaring; and some
sensitive, and wanting to know, but just do not know. I have been one of
these.
Guys who do a lot of verbal leading (teaching on the dancefloor) of
beginners are often unaware of the bad effect they are having on their
unwilling student.
Guys: don't assume that because you feel good about the dance, that she does
too! And also... don't assume that because you felt that you weren't dancing
well, that she had a bad dance. Ask her, observe how she responds to your
invitation, and your dancing. Ask other women.
Cut each other some slack, but don't stand for bad behaviour; and don't
assume that your experience is shared - find out!
my 2c
--
Gary Barnes
Canberra, Australia
"more tango, more often"
