4169 Where can I find more Milonga at milongas?
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 13:07:54 -0400
From: "Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau@law.nyc.gov>
Subject: [Tango-L] Where can I find more Milonga at milongas?
To: "'tango-l@mit.edu'" <tango-l@mit.edu>
<1A48EE91A5DFFC4BB2FC91C122470E311CE272@lawman-ex01.lawlan.nycnet>
I am interested in finding out about cities, locations, festivals,
particularly near US-NE but happy to hear about any location, where Milonga
is played and danced more frequently at milongas. Where I am (NYC), the
usual DJ protocol is one tanda of 3 milonga per hour, or about 8 minutes
total. Since I love dancing milonga, this isnt enough for me. Not only
that, but the DJ's tend to play the same 5 or 6 milongas over and over, and
I know from the instructors who visit for milonga workshops and bring their
music (ie Facundo and Kely) there is a wealth of varied and interesting
milonga and candombe out there. To compund my difficulty, most (not all)
followers here prefer to rest during Milonga and dance tangos, while I
always dance milongas and rest during tangos. The followers often ask me to
return to ask them when a tango is played, so I'm fairly sure its not my
lack of skill. Some followers tell me milonga is a "guy" thing. Maybe
that's true, since the traspie requires a nice closer embrace to really
rock. So, are there locations out there where the women absolutely and
fearlessly love to dance milonga, and where the DJs are willing to (gasp)
shake up the traditional sequences?
Desperately Seeking Milonga
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 15:59:08 -0500
From: Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Where can I find more Milonga at milongas?
As a DJ, I am sensitive to the number of people who choose to dance to
each tanda. In many communities where I have DJed, I find myself playing
fewer milongas (and candombes) at most of the milongas than I myself would
like to dance to. I find that I am able to play more milongas at tango
festivals than in most communities--maybe because the general level of
dancing is higher among those who have the committment necessary to attend
a festival.
That makes me wonder if the lack of dancers on the floor when milongas are
being played may have something to do with a general lack of milonga or
rhythm skills in the communities where there isn't much milonga dancing.
Strange as it may seem, milonga classes aren't very frequently/widely
taught. And in many milonga classes, the instructors seem to emphasize
complex movements over rhythm.
In my own community, the number of people dancing milonga increased
dramatically after a number of us taught very basic milonga classes, and
that allowed me to play more milongas at our milongas.
With best regards,
Steve
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 18:06:42 -0400
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Where can I find more Milonga at milongas?
Hi Steve,
That's funny, I've noticed that most of the time when I get requests for
milongas, the person who asks is usually a beginner who can't really dance a
milonga.... The reason more "milongas" are not played in the milongas is
because people prefer tango and vals. Not necessarily because they are not
skilled enough to dance milongas, just that they rather dance tango....
Manuel
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
>From: Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org
>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Where can I find more Milonga at milongas?
>Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 15:59:08 -0500
>
>As a DJ, I am sensitive to the number of people who choose to dance to
>each tanda. In many communities where I have DJed, I find myself playing
>fewer milongas (and candombes) at most of the milongas than I myself would
>like to dance to. I find that I am able to play more milongas at tango
>festivals than in most communities--maybe because the general level of
>dancing is higher among those who have the committment necessary to attend
>a festival.
>
>That makes me wonder if the lack of dancers on the floor when milongas are
>being played may have something to do with a general lack of milonga or
>rhythm skills in the communities where there isn't much milonga dancing.
>Strange as it may seem, milonga classes aren't very frequently/widely
>taught. And in many milonga classes, the instructors seem to emphasize
>complex movements over rhythm.
>
>In my own community, the number of people dancing milonga increased
>dramatically after a number of us taught very basic milonga classes, and
>that allowed me to play more milongas at our milongas.
>
>With best regards,
>Steve
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 18:23:45 -0400
From: "Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau@law.nyc.gov>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] More mIlonga at milongas
To: "'tango-l@mit.edu'" <tango-l@mit.edu>
<1A48EE91A5DFFC4BB2FC91C122470E311CE275@lawman-ex01.lawlan.nycnet>
Stepehn Brown replied:
[ In many communities where I have DJed, I find myself playing
fewer milongas (and candombes) at most of the milongas than I myself would
like to dance to. I find that I am able to play more milongas at tango
festivals than in most communities--maybe because the general level of
dancing is higher among those who have the committment necessary to attend
a festival.
That makes me wonder if the lack of dancers on the floor when milongas are
being played may have something to do with a general lack of milonga or
rhythm skills in the communities where there isn't much milonga dancing.
Strange as it may seem, milonga classes aren't very frequently/widely
taught. ...]
Thanks Steve, Well, then what excuse can be made in NYC, where we have ready
access to continuing Milonga classes by Omar Vega, Armando Orzuzo, Ney and
Jennifer, plus a lot of visiting instructors? Also, in these classes, men
usually outnumber women almost 2 to 1. I think its a gender gap. Maybe
women just dont hear that primal beat the way men do. (That sexist comment
should get me lots of flaming e mails. :-) )
Yes, in Washington DC festival they definitely played more milonga and other
interesting and unusual stuff. Hope thats the case in Boston this weekend.
Desperately Seeking Milonga.
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 15:46:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] More mIlonga at milongas
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Hi Martin
Well I can tell you the reason why there are fewer women in the milonga classes, it's because women think they know everything and don't need classes. They think, if the dance isn't good it's because the guy didn't lead it well because if he had, I would have followed it well.
I am a girl, and I lead and I follow and let me tell you, I always used to think as above, until I started to dance with girls and then it hit me there are a lot of bad followers out there, and I have renewed respect for the guys that they can look as good as they do, dancing with them. There are few followers who dance, most just follow, and many badly.
Then of course, if the guys outnumber the girls in the classes, they are less inclined to keep coming to class, and then the women complain that there are more women than experienced men at the milonga. If there were more women in the classes to learn stuff and to partner the men, and if the women didn't complain so much, there wouldn't be a gender imbalance problem anywhere.
One guy here, when a girl asked him why he didn't dance with her much anymore, he told her the truth, he said, because you don't bother learning and getting better. Of course next Sunday she came to class. And I hugged him and wished we had more honest guys like him.
Tine
"Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau@law.nyc.gov> wrote:
Stepehn Brown replied:
[ In many communities where I have DJed, I find myself playing
fewer milongas (and candombes) at most of the milongas than I myself would
like to dance to. I find that I am able to play more milongas at tango
festivals than in most communities--maybe because the general level of
dancing is higher among those who have the committment necessary to attend
a festival.
That makes me wonder if the lack of dancers on the floor when milongas are
being played may have something to do with a general lack of milonga or
rhythm skills in the communities where there isn't much milonga dancing.
Strange as it may seem, milonga classes aren't very frequently/widely
taught. ...]
Thanks Steve, Well, then what excuse can be made in NYC, where we have ready
access to continuing Milonga classes by Omar Vega, Armando Orzuzo, Ney and
Jennifer, plus a lot of visiting instructors? Also, in these classes, men
usually outnumber women almost 2 to 1. I think its a gender gap. Maybe
women just dont hear that primal beat the way men do. (That sexist comment
should get me lots of flaming e mails. :-) )
Yes, in Washington DC festival they definitely played more milonga and other
interesting and unusual stuff. Hope thats the case in Boston this weekend.
Desperately Seeking Milonga.
************************
www.yaletangoclub.org
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 16:05:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Where can I find more Milonga at milongas?
Martin,
Come to Pittsburgh or one of our nearby communities.
Women here love a good milonga dancer. Much more than
the men. If you want more milongas, then just ask the
deejays. When Susana Miller is here Memorial Day
weekend with Diego Vepes, we're having one or two
milonga classes.
Steve,
I agree with your assessment. If people have a strong
sense of rhythm in their tango, then they are more
likely to succeed in milonga. I think this is why
milonguero-style dancers are more comfortable with
milonga than nuevo dancers, based on my personal
experience with dancers of different styles. It
really seems to be in how people hear the music.
Milonga was always difficult for me until I
continually heard the QQS in tango.
Also, there is a fair amount of alternative music
which one dances more like milonga than a tango. It's
a nice way of getting beginners used to the moving
faster.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org wrote:
> As a DJ, I am sensitive to the number of people who
> choose to dance to
> each tanda. In many communities where I have DJed,
> I find myself playing
> fewer milongas (and candombes) at most of the
> milongas than I myself would
> like to dance to. I find that I am able to play
> more milongas at tango
> festivals than in most communities--maybe because
> the general level of
> dancing is higher among those who have the
> committment necessary to attend
> a festival.
>
> That makes me wonder if the lack of dancers on the
> floor when milongas are
> being played may have something to do with a general
> lack of milonga or
> rhythm skills in the communities where there isn't
> much milonga dancing.
> Strange as it may seem, milonga classes aren't very
> frequently/widely
> taught. And in many milonga classes, the
> instructors seem to emphasize
> complex movements over rhythm.
>
> In my own community, the number of people dancing
> milonga increased
> dramatically after a number of us taught very basic
> milonga classes, and
> that allowed me to play more milongas at our
> milongas.
>
> With best regards,
> Steve
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 16:46:46 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] More mIlonga at milongas
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Contrary to Tine,
I think most women are good dancers.
And many many women are excellent.
An 99% of all beginners are able to make a fairly good dance with a good
leader (if not - he is not a good one yet).
I can say only opposite about men.
I think it is much easier for a woman to become a good tango dancer than for
a man, and never the less men are those who want to learn less. And Tine's
example shows just that!
I understand what Tine said. What she said means that those women are not
good enough to be perfect instruments in men's learning. It is difficult to
learn with not finely tuned instrument. They are good enough for dancing
with a good leader, but not good for a clumsy beginner. Because, that
beginner man must know how to follow! Of course, he does not.
I really appreciate advanced women for sharing their time with less advanced
dancers. That is how our community grows and that is how I grew myself. I
can not express in words how I am grateful! That is an attraction and most
important help for tango men.
Fewer women in the milonga classes? That is what supposed to be! I vote for
women/men = 1/10. :)
I believe that is the major reason why tango became tango. Why men should
torture women with their learning? They should practice with themselves or
hire a good teacher to bring them to shape.
But it is a dream, I do not think it will ever happen again like it was in
Buenos Aires.
How to attract men to classes? It looks like it is a real problem. I do not
know. Often girls bring them. May be with time, when Tango gains more social
status, and become less complex ( could it? ).
Tango definitely has a potential of winning greater social status - you can
not dance any other dance in any place with any music, but you can tango!
Igor Polk.
PS She can not make a volcada? Jeeeeeeeeeee.....
But what a hell a man you are if you can not lead anything else!
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 17:33:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: "B.T." <bailartangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] More mIlonga at milongas
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I dunnoo...milonga tempo is relentless.
Its a move/movement monster, need to be fed a lot.
I think a couple milonga tandas an evening is plenty.
Hate to score a good partner & then have the music speed up.
My opinion...
B.T.
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 18:32:22 -0700
From: "El Mundo del Tango" <mail@elmundodeltango.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] More mIlonga at milongas
To: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
I strongly disagree, Igor. Your posturing only encourages women to walk away
from their share of the responsability for the dance and promotes the
"if-you-can-lead-I can-follow" nonsense attitude.
Gabriel
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] More mIlonga at milongas
> Contrary to Tine,
> I think most women are good dancers.
> And many many women are excellent.
> An 99% of all beginners are able to make a fairly good dance with a good
> leader (if not - he is not a good one yet).
>
> I can say only opposite about men.
>
> I think it is much easier for a woman to become a good tango dancer than
> for
> a man, and never the less men are those who want to learn less. And Tine's
> example shows just that!
>
> I understand what Tine said. What she said means that those women are not
> good enough to be perfect instruments in men's learning. It is difficult
> to
> learn with not finely tuned instrument. They are good enough for dancing
> with a good leader, but not good for a clumsy beginner. Because, that
> beginner man must know how to follow! Of course, he does not.
>
> I really appreciate advanced women for sharing their time with less
> advanced
> dancers. That is how our community grows and that is how I grew myself. I
> can not express in words how I am grateful! That is an attraction and most
> important help for tango men.
>
> Fewer women in the milonga classes? That is what supposed to be! I vote
> for
> women/men = 1/10. :)
> I believe that is the major reason why tango became tango. Why men should
> torture women with their learning? They should practice with themselves or
> hire a good teacher to bring them to shape.
>
> But it is a dream, I do not think it will ever happen again like it was in
> Buenos Aires.
>
> How to attract men to classes? It looks like it is a real problem. I do
> not
> know. Often girls bring them. May be with time, when Tango gains more
> social
> status, and become less complex ( could it? ).
> Tango definitely has a potential of winning greater social status - you
> can
> not dance any other dance in any place with any music, but you can tango!
>
>
>
> Igor Polk.
> PS She can not make a volcada? Jeeeeeeeeeee.....
> But what a hell a man you are if you can not lead anything else!
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 19:01:30 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] More mIlonga at milongas
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
"Maybe women just dont hear that primal beat the way men do." - Nussbaum,
Martin
What I said in the previous message applies to tango.
In Milonga women really must know how to dance milonga ( it is simple, there
are only 2 rules ( Aha, simple.. ;) ).
A man no matter how good he is can not lead the right milonga, if a woman
does not know what to do.
* * *
'I strongly disagree, Igor. Your posturing only encourages women to walk
away
from their share of the responsability for the dance and promotes the
"if-you-can-lead-I can-follow" nonsense attitude.' - Gabriel
Yes, Gabriel. If women walk away, tango will die. I am glad you have pointed
it out! And men must do their best to learn, and to appreciate what they are
given by women.
And I am glad to repeat it again: a man can learn from every woman he dances
with! Most women dance and know much more than most men. It is logical too:
they learn from the best leaders. Right in the dance!
Men should learn, men should progress too. And it takes more effort from
them to keep up with women.
Igor Polk.
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 19:30:45 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] More mIlonga at milongas
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
I am here to tell more about it.
In the dance everything depends on a man!
He has to: listen to music, interpret it and find the right rhythmical
pattern to convey it to his woman in the lead, to feel her and fix her
errors "back-following", he has to be musical, he has to dance different
styles to different orchestras, and find out what is good for the particular
"her", he has to be creative, improvisational, he has to know how to make
the dance interesting, he has to watch for other dancers, dangers, a safe
place to make a boleo, to follow the line of the dance, not to speak that he
has to move his own legs.
And he has to know how to dance milonga!
See? 10 times more difficult! A great woman can not compensate it, no matter
how good she is!
Do men take 10 times more classes? Do they practice 10 times more? No.
Then women say: "I am dancing and dancing with them, but they are the same
like several years ago! They do not learn! They do not progress! They make
all the same steps. Or they do something which I do not know dancing for
themselves."
And all that time women learned in the dance continuously with the best
leaders.
No wonder women start to lead themselves.
Igor
PS,
I guess the next question could be: "Your posturing only encourages men to
walk away because it is too difficult."
I am looking for the answer myself.
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 21:58:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] More mIlonga at milongas
Hola Igor,
Sean here. It wasn't so long ago that I thought just
like you do. But I have recently seen (but not yet
implemented) the wisdom of Tine's observations.
For years I have been one of those guys who always
tries to make my partners feel like they can do
nothing wrong. Many, many teachers have taught me to
do just that. Then last year, a top instructor taught
workshops in Pittsburgh for the first time. He had a
very different point of view. He held me personally
responsible for the burgeoning mediocrity of many
Pittsburgh followers because I make them feel like
they can really dance. He was very insistent that I
stop dancing with intermediate dancers, to encourage
them to improve. He also pointed out that when I make
a mediocre dancer look very good, it is very
discouraging to other advanced leaders who are not so
skilled at compensating for the women's mistakes.
Finally, I also discovered that in order to be always
ready to adjust for the woman's misstep, I hold back
my own intention.
It is clear to me that this guy is right on all three
points. By dancing with intermediate followers, I rob
them of the incentive to improve, I set an impossible
standard for the other men, and I hold back my own
development. But for the most part, I have not been
successful implementing a change. When I have told
women that I don't want to dance with them because
they have not improved in a while, their reaction has
varied in its unpleasantness, but it has never been to
start taking classes again. I hope Tine will also hug
the woman who started going to classes again. I wish
there were more honest women like her.
Sean
P.S. I particularly like Tine's point about dancing
verses just following. I am sure any man knows exactly
what she means, but how do you explain it to the women
who don't lead? Does anyone have any tips for teaching
women to dance, instead of just following?
--- Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
In the dance everything depends on a man!
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 02:03:38 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] More mIlonga at milongas
What he said.
It is possible for a follower to be essentially useless as a dance
partner. I've met more than a few. The worst is when they
think they know what they are doing. The universal constant
with them is that they hardly ever take instruction, a few classes
a year, and at that, they never took beginner classes.
To summarize, I like how Tom Stermitz defines intermediate:
not taking classes anymore.
The real magic of tango happens with both partners operating
at a high level. And for followers to operate at that level they
need to work as hard as the leads.
Christopher
Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
>Hola Igor,
>
>Sean here. It wasn't so long ago that I thought just
>like you do. But I have recently seen (but not yet
>implemented) the wisdom of Tine's observations.
>
>For years I have been one of those guys who always
>tries to make my partners feel like they can do
>nothing wrong. Many, many teachers have taught me to
>do just that. Then last year, a top instructor taught
>workshops in Pittsburgh for the first time. He had a
>very different point of view. He held me personally
>responsible for the burgeoning mediocrity of many
>Pittsburgh followers because I make them feel like
>they can really dance. He was very insistent that I
>stop dancing with intermediate dancers, to encourage
>them to improve. He also pointed out that when I make
>a mediocre dancer look very good, it is very
>discouraging to other advanced leaders who are not so
>skilled at compensating for the women's mistakes.
>Finally, I also discovered that in order to be always
>ready to adjust for the woman's misstep, I hold back
>my own intention.
>
>It is clear to me that this guy is right on all three
>points. By dancing with intermediate followers, I rob
>them of the incentive to improve, I set an impossible
>standard for the other men, and I hold back my own
>development. But for the most part, I have not been
>successful implementing a change. When I have told
>women that I don't want to dance with them because
>they have not improved in a while, their reaction has
>varied in its unpleasantness, but it has never been to
>start taking classes again. I hope Tine will also hug
>the woman who started going to classes again. I wish
>there were more honest women like her.
>
>Sean
>
>P.S. I particularly like Tine's point about dancing
>verses just following. I am sure any man knows exactly
>what she means, but how do you explain it to the women
>who don't lead? Does anyone have any tips for teaching
>women to dance, instead of just following?
>
>
>--- Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
>In the dance everything depends on a man!
>
>
>PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
>Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
>https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
>
>
>
>
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 04:05:03 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] More mIlonga at milongas
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
It does not seem I was able to let you understand me,
I guess it is my English.
In my post
"He has to: listen to music, ...."
should this phrase be changed to :
"He should : listen to music, ...." ?
In the sense "Look how many things a man should do!" or still "have to be
able to do to be a good leader"?
I am lost.
Igor.
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 15:18:11 +0000 (GMT)
From: Alberto Gesualdi <clambat2001@yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: [Tango-L] More milonga at milongas
Dear friends listeros/as
Here in Buenos Aires, the frequence of milonga tandas is... one tanda, then a 1 hour gap , then another tanda, and so on.
Some milongas dancing places are keeping a non written rule that does not allow milongas dancing places to play other music than tangos-milongas-valsecitos , due to the special status this places have as dancing places , excepted from many of the new regulations for general dancing places .
I noticed , that there is an increasing presence , of special doctored canyengue tandas. I am not qualified to say if this tandas could be considered tango tandas or milonga tandas, since it could be that in the same tanda "Derecho viejo" tango and "Orillera" milonga are included. Now the Tuba Tango group have launched a new CD with a good selection of canyengue and orillero style dancing tracks.
Some weeks ago we went with my wife to club villa malcolm, where the milonga El Motivo helds each second saturday of the month, a dancing night.
It was very interesting to watch a couple that we have seen before, they even have contested into same heat rounds on previous Tango Festivals of Buenos Aires, in the category amateurs. He is a young man, black long hair tied with a string , and she is a middle age woman , thinny and with white hair . They dance quite well the different tandas and they look to enjoy the dancing.
But when the canyengue tanda came.... they were outstanding , not even they enjoy a lot the tanda, but they do dance in an excellent sincopated walking .
This keeps me thinking on , how do you do when you want to dance canyengue at a milonga dancing place ?? Because you have to wait .. and to wait... until the canyengue tanda arrives , in the meantime you have to dance with your dancing partner just to keep warm :):)
warm regard
alberto gesualdi
buenos aires
"B.T." <bailartangos@yahoo.com> escribi?:
I dunnoo...milonga tempo is relentless.
Its a move/movement monster, need to be fed a lot.
I think a couple milonga tandas an evening is plenty.
Hate to score a good partner & then have the music speed up.
My opinion...
B.T.
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.
Correo Yahoo!
Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ?gratis!
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 22:28:55 GMT
From: "dubrovay@juno.com" <dubrovay@juno.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Fw: Re: Where can I find more Milonga at milongas?
Hello Steve:
I am a DJ in two of the milongas here in Seattle and the tandas are 2 tandas of 4 tangos,
1 tanda of 3 valses, 2 tandas of 4 tangos, 1 tanda of 3 milongas and so on, valses or milongas every 2 tango tandas.
It has been working OK for many years and everybody is happy.
I don't play milongas or valses or cortinas in the first 1/2 hour because the dancing floor is a little empty.
Elemer in Redmond.
---------- Forwarded Message ----------
As a DJ, I am sensitive to the number of people who choose to dance to
each tanda. In many communities where I have DJed, I find myself playing
fewer milongas (and candombes) at most of the milongas than I myself would
like to dance to. I find that I am able to play more milongas at tango
festivals than in most communities--maybe because the general level of
dancing is higher among those who have the committment necessary to attend
a festival.
That makes me wonder if the lack of dancers on the floor when milongas are
being played may have something to do with a general lack of milonga or
rhythm skills in the communities where there isn't much milonga dancing.
Strange as it may seem, milonga classes aren't very frequently/widely
taught. And in many milonga classes, the instructors seem to emphasize
complex movements over rhythm.
In my own community, the number of people dancing milonga increased
dramatically after a number of us taught very basic milonga classes, and
that allowed me to play more milongas at our milongas.
With best regards,
Steve
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2006 12:04:22 -0400
From: "tl2@chrisjj.com" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] More mIlonga at milongas
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Christopher L. Everett wrote:
> It is possible for a follower to be essentially useless as a dance
> partner. ... The worst is when they think they know what they are
> doing. The universal constant with them is that they ... never
> took beginner classes.
In my experience, the universal constant amongst useless partners is that
they /did/ take beginner classes. Most notably the girls crippled by steps
that the've had drilled into them before getting a chance to learn to
follow, or even to experience the feel of a real lead. Yes they 'think they
know what they are doing' - inevitably, given that's what the lesson is
telling them every time they succeed in copying the demonstrated material.
A girl that never took beginner classes exhibits none of these dysfuctions.
She does not interpret two steps on the side to mean she must cross. A
pause does not send her into a loop of auto-ochos. She does not take every
simple squeeze of a foot to be a sandwich that triggers a step-over.
How could she? In learning on the dancefloor, she never encounters these
class fabrications. Even when unfortunate enough to get a leader programmed
full of them. Because just like his teacher he rarely if ever leads them,
and instead (just like his teacher) resorts to verbal instruction. She
learns... but not to do the fake steps. She learns to say "No".
I recall the advice of a great dancer who was also a needs-must teacher:
"Don't take classes. Not even my classes. Classes are for those who cannot
dance."
Chris
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
https://mail2web.com/ .
Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 02:33:24 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] More mIlonga at milongas
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
tl2@chrisjj.com wrote:
>Christopher L. Everett wrote:
>
>
>>It is possible for a follower to be essentially useless as a dance
>>partner. ... The worst is when they think they know what they are
>>doing. The universal constant with them is that they ... never
>>took beginner classes.
>>
>
>In my experience, the universal constant amongst useless partners is that
>they /did/ take beginner classes.
>
Heh,
I'm used to beginner classes that do something useful for
beginners.
The syndrome I was actually addressing is the situation of
people who've taken a few workshops in salon style, but not
much more than that, attempting to pass on "what they know"
to other people.
"What they know" turns out to be the tiny collection of steps
they still remember, divorced from good posture, musicality
or connection. Stepping on the beat gets left behind in the
rush to teach all the steps they know.
And yes, the dreaded "machine-gun" ocho occurs in this context
too. Happened to me today. It could have been worse, my
first experience with auto-ochos was with someone with a lot
of ballroom tango experience: scary.
Christopher
Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 08:55:26 -0500
From: "Ed Doyle" <doyleed@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] More mIlonga at milongas
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<183484970605010655ld233701vc906346a7f1785a7@mail.gmail.com>
Hi,
I enjoy the comments about the 'ocho machines' or 'machine gun ochos'.
I have about a year of leading experience, and every once in a while,
I get a follower who is an 'ocho' machine. On slow music, I like to
lead just a single ocho and hold or pause, and then another and pause.
The last time I danced with an 'ocho machine', I led one ocho, the
music slowed to a dreamy pause, and the machine started up doing first
ocho, then another, then another, faster and faster till she was
almost panicking. I tried to stand as still as possible, not moving
any part of my body and faster and faster she went till finally she
abruptly stopped and angrily said, I don't know what you want me to do
when you don't lead me to do anything. I tried to smile and calmly
say, if I don't lead anything, then don't do anything at all - just
pause with me and enjoy the music. She did and I think we both did
much better after that.
I have actually only seen a few ocho machines, most followers are
wonderful, often covering for my inexperience or helping me get
better, but every so often I do experience the run away ocho and I
have never really known why they do it, whether it is something I
somehow cause, or they were taught it.
Related to auto ocho is the runaway molinette. Here, the followers do
not go on automatic, but they speed up, seeming to me to have nothing
to do with the music - but just traverse faster and faster again,
almost in panic mode. This too only happens occasionally, but when it
does, I am always wondering if I did something that caused it, and how
can I get them back to the speed we were dancing.
Well, I really have no points I am trying to make here, just sort of
amused to see that perhaps other leaders occasionally experience some
of what I as a beginner experience. As I said, most of the time, I do
not experience the runaway molinette or auto ocho, but only
accaisionally.
Ed
On 5/1/06, Christopher L. Everett <ceverett@ceverett.com> wrote:
> tl2@chrisjj.com wrote:
>
> >Christopher L. Everett wrote:
> >
> >
> >>It is possible for a follower to be essentially useless as a dance
> >>partner. ... The worst is when they think they know what they are
> >>doing. The universal constant with them is that they ... never
> >>took beginner classes.
> >>
> >
> >In my experience, the universal constant amongst useless partners is that
> >they /did/ take beginner classes.
> >
> Heh,
>
> I'm used to beginner classes that do something useful for
> beginners.
>
> The syndrome I was actually addressing is the situation of
> people who've taken a few workshops in salon style, but not
> much more than that, attempting to pass on "what they know"
> to other people.
>
> "What they know" turns out to be the tiny collection of steps
> they still remember, divorced from good posture, musicality
> or connection. Stepping on the beat gets left behind in the
> rush to teach all the steps they know.
>
> And yes, the dreaded "machine-gun" ocho occurs in this context
> too. Happened to me today. It could have been worse, my
> first experience with auto-ochos was with someone with a lot
> of ballroom tango experience: scary.
>
> Christopher
>
>
>
>
Date: Mon, 1 May 2006 23:05:53 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] More mIlonga at milongas
To: "Ed Doyle" <doyleed@gmail.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
I led one ocho, the
> music slowed to a dreamy pause, and the machine started up doing first
> ocho, then another, then another, faster and faster till she was
> almost panicking. I tried to stand as still as possible, not moving
any part of my body and faster and faster she went till finally she
abruptly stopped and angrily said, I don't know what you want me to do
when you don't lead me to do anything
>Related to auto ocho is the runaway molinette...
Ah, the joys of leading and following... I remember the time I was once
asked in class, if I would please be a man today since there was such a
dismal lack of them. I hardly had a clue how lead an ocho, but I tried, and
was quite appalled when, after a first hint of a lead, my girl went into
automatic pilot and performed one ocho after another without paying any
attention to me. Nor did I know how to stop her. I finally told her to stand
still so that we could go on...
I think, the reason for this, as with a few other movements, is that women
are told to practise ochos against the wall, when there are not enough men.
Not just one ocho, but 20-30 of them in a row. So beginners may get the idea
that ochos are just something of which you do at least two, if not 4 or 6 or
more. Molinetes are also often practised with two women going round and
round. Don't know about faster and faster though. Once we were told in class
to pull the men around with the help of our back muscles, since the men had
a hard time gaining enough momentum on their own. The third thing is the
cross. Women are often told that after one-two, you have to cross, so they
do, whether they are led or not, and some male beginners don't know how to
lead the cross and simply expect the woman to do it on her own. Another
thing is the boleo. Do you sometimes, like me, watch women performing
uncalled for boleos on their own, with a tensed leg, and you can see clearly
that they are doing it without being led because it looiks so out of harmony
with the dance?
I still remember Ezequiel, my first teacher, who would sometimes tell the
women in class NOT to perform the figures on their own that he was just
explaining to the men but wait until paired with the leaders. He may have
even prefered the women not to watch or listen at all while he explained to
the men what we were going to do. Not a bad way of teaching, but I have
never seen anyone else doing this.
Enjoyed your posting, Ed
Astrid
